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Old 2009-07-21, 17:30   Link #261
Sute443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
There are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except the mole thing.

And the whole "Kyon giving Haruhi the idea to go to North High" fiasco in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody.
Those are not paradoxes in the sense the word is normally used regarding time travel. A temporal paradox is an event that would prevent itself from happening: killing you parents before you are born, preventing you from existing, so you couldn't kill them, so they'd survive, so you would exist, etc, etc... They are self-contradictory.

The events you listed are self-confirming events. The events further down the timeline could not have occurred without the earlier events, which only occurred because of the later events. These are commonly referred to as "causal loops" and should not be called paradoxes if only to prevent further confusion.

The thing that started in Volume 4 and ended in the prologue of Volume 7 is an example of another causal loop.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-07-21 at 17:32. Reason: Removed specific future event novel spoiler
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Old 2009-07-21, 17:34   Link #262
Joe4evr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I don't remenber Intrigues being paradoxal. Care to explain?

(what is "fiasco" BTW? We have the same word in portuguese, but it don't seens to fit here)
"Fiasco" means something has gone horribly wrong. Intrigues, well...
Spoiler for Intrigues:
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Old 2009-07-21, 17:41   Link #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4evr View Post
"Fiasco" means something has gone horribly wrong. Intrigues, well...
Spoiler for Intrigues:
Oh, "fiasco" is that in portuguese too (I didn't understand how it apply to Banboo Leaf, then).

About the spoiler. It is not paradoxal. It is just a closed loop.

I had a discussion with Sute about this some time ago and I think he could explain it better. Anyway, there is no problem on the "acausality" so there is no paradox on a closed loop.

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-07-21 at 18:35.
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Old 2009-07-21, 19:34   Link #264
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
The events you listed are self-confirming events. The events further down the timeline could not have occurred without the earlier events, which only occurred because of the later events. These are commonly referred to as "causal loops" and should not be called paradoxes if only to prevent further confusion.
... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?

Quote:
An ontological paradox is a paradox of time travel that questions the existence and creation of information and objects that travel in time. It is very closely related to the predestination paradox and usually occurs at the same time.

Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history, not changing it. The Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can.

However, a scenario can occur where items or information are passed from the future to the past, which then become the same items or information that are subsequently passed back. This not only creates a loop, but a situation where these items have no discernible origin. Physical items are even more problematic than pieces of information, since they should ordinarily age and increase in entropy according to the Second law of thermodynamics. But if they age by any nonzero amount at each cycle, they cannot be the same item to be sent back in time, creating a contradiction unless it is a reproduced item such as a seed, spore, etc.
This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.
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Old 2009-07-22, 00:52   Link #265
Alesiopdv
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Really? What about Kyon
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Old 2009-07-22, 01:00   Link #266
Sute443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?
I have, and if you'd specified ontological I wouldn't have taken any issue with it. My problem was merely that when people mention paradoxes in a time travel context, the grandfather paradox is what comes to mind, not the ontological paradox. Clarity is important, especially when dealing with subjects that tend to confuse people.

You may wish to check the Predestination Paradox page, as it describes the exact same process that would apply to knowledge of Mikuru's mole as well. The two are similar enough that trying to say it only fits into one of them feels like splitting hairs.

Oh, and Alesiopdv, another aspect of what you brought up is that
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-11, 01:32   Link #267
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Some stuff is essentially a time paradox (or whatever the technically correct term is...)

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-03-02, 18:48   Link #268
Takamura Mamoru
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Reviving the thread, I forgot that I actually did a complete analysis of the second opening, which I don't think anyone has done.

Spoiler for Op:
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Old 2010-03-03, 10:35   Link #269
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I haven't seen anything like that either, so thanks for pulling it together.

No surprises for any of the character associations, except a couple for Koizumi. What on earth is 'gobang' besides the obvious? And I think its interesting that they cast doubt on his supposed insight right in the opening credits.
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Old 2010-03-04, 00:07   Link #270
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?



This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.
Ontological paradox is only a paradox at all because most people insist everything in time had to be linear. i.e. there is a start, middle, and an end. But the whole point with time loops is that a loop doesn't need a beginning or end. There is no RULE that states something has to come from somewhere. It just has to be consistent, it doesn't need an origin at all.

It's like how a Möbius strip has only one side. You might ask, how could a piece of paper not have a top and bottom? But a Möbius strip exists, it isn't a paradox. It is just unconventional.
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Old 2010-03-23, 21:14   Link #271
TheHaruhiIncarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?



This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.
And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:06   Link #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)
So that's what the mole is about?!
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:21   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)
That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:41   Link #274
keri
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.
I wish we had a reason for the camera lingering so lovingly on that carefully rendered mole, though. What Kogetsu said a while back, and having it linked to the mole, is enough to get it to not be so bothersome. (Though I don't think it had anything to do with Koizumi realizing Kyon had time-travelled.)
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:51   Link #275
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Originally Posted by keri View Post
I wish we had a reason for the camera lingering so lovingly on that carefully rendered mole, though. What Kogetsu said a while back, and having it linked to the mole, is enough to get it to not be so bothersome. (Though I don't think it had anything to do with Koizumi realizing Kyon had time-travelled.)
Maybe they initially had the drunken scenes planned and when that fell through had to whip up something they could easily storyboard and animate over a monologue so the timing would be right. In most situations during the first season, a monologue like that would have been slimmed down. Who knows... Weird mole is weird...
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:26   Link #276
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Maybe they initially had the drunken scenes planned and when that fell through had to whip up something they could easily storyboard and animate over a monologue so the timing would be right. In most situations during the first season, a monologue like that would have been slimmed down. Who knows... Weird mole is weird...
So er...

Nice mole.
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Old 2010-03-24, 07:09   Link #277
TheHaruhiIncarnate
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.
Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.
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Old 2010-03-24, 10:14   Link #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.
so each time you timetravel, you get an anomaly? freaky...wonder why mikuru doesnt have a 3rd arm by now.
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Old 2010-03-24, 12:04   Link #279
quigonkenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.
Now that is a stretch... ^_^

Anyway. Kyon doesn't have a mole, or at least not one related to the story in any way. It's not mentioned in the novels at all. That whole take on that scene is something they made up for the anime.
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Old 2011-06-27, 17:57   Link #280
AbZeroNow
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Surprise has really got my puzzling over a few statements made by a certain Anti-SOS Dan member.

Spoiler for Surprise Chapter 5 excerpt:


That information certainly puts Disappearance in a new light.

Spoiler for Chapter 5 another Kuyou excerpt:


I'm not sure but I think the Anthropic Principle was invoked in the middle of that. That would be an interesting echo of what Koizumi had said.

Spoiler for Disappearance and Surprise questions and thoughts.:
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