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Old 2011-07-01, 01:51   Link #3201
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Sure, that can be a great way to attract people. But as a Christian, you're still eventually going to have to actually talk about your faith and Jesus Christ and the Gospel, etc.
Being available for questions is one thing. Pestering people another.
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Old 2011-07-01, 01:53   Link #3202
Archon_Wing
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Communication tends to be a 2 way street. Some people forget this...
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:01   Link #3203
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Being available for questions is one thing. Pestering people another.
Well, sorry but that's not something that's exclusive to religion. It's just the way people are. When you have something that you feel is important for other people to know, you don't just wait until somebody comes to you.
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:06   Link #3204
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, sorry but that's nothing exclusive to religion. It's just the way people are. When you have something that you feel is important for other people to know, you don't just wait until somebody comes to you.
Speak for yourself.
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:08   Link #3205
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Speak for yourself.
Sure, but apparently I also speak for several other people in the world. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place, now would we?
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:15   Link #3206
Anh_Minh
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Yeah, but when you say "it's the way people are", you excuse arrogance and rudeness by saying they're universal when, patently, they're not. A lot of people can, in fact, refrain from annoying others with "what's important to them", because they know damn well "important to them" doesn't mean "important to everyone around them".
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:21   Link #3207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, but when you say "it's the way people are", you excuse arrogance and rudeness by saying they're universal when, patently, they're not. A lot of people can, in fact, refrain from annoying others with "what's important to them", because they know damn well "important to them" doesn't mean "important to everyone around them".
Just to play devil's advocate: thing about nearly anyone who follows religion diligently believes that all people must follow their belief because otherwise, they will go to hell. Not just christians, but anyone who follows an Abrahamic religion or something entirely different (only religion I know of that doesn't force people to believe in something are Buddhists and Taoists, which aren't exactly religions anyways). According to them, following their belief system is what's best for everyone. They don't see themselves as selfish in this, but benevolent because they're trying to save you. It's the same as you telling someone really important in your life that their life is in danger if they don't find an antidote for their illness, or something of the sort. Sure, you may not see your unbelief as an illness, but some of those who do would.
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Old 2011-07-01, 02:37   Link #3208
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, but when you say "it's the way people are", you excuse arrogance and rudeness by saying they're universal when, patently, they're not.
Not at all, I merely pointed out that the problem was with the people, not the religion.
Quote:
A lot of people can, in fact, refrain from annoying others with "what's important to them", because they know damn well "important to them" doesn't mean "important to everyone around them".
And a lot of people either can't or won't. When I say people, I mean more than one person, not necessarily all people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
They don't see themselves as selfish in this, but benevolent because they're trying to save you.
More or less, and sure, some can take it too far (from other people's perspectives). But again, that's the people, not necessarily the religion.
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Old 2011-07-01, 03:41   Link #3209
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, but when you say "it's the way people are", you excuse arrogance and rudeness by saying they're universal when, patently, they're not. A lot of people can, in fact, refrain from annoying others with "what's important to them", because they know damn well "important to them" doesn't mean "important to everyone around them".
Pestering is one thing spreading your idea is another. There is freedom of speech in the free world. And freedom of speech doesn't simply mean that you can talk about what you like in sheletered envinroments far away from people that do not even want to listen to you.

Freedom of speech means that you can talk to the world using mass media or by organizing sit in parades and what not.

There's a lot of people that would like gay pride parades to be forbidden and a ban to the spreading og LGBT idealogies, but they need to suck it up.
However if you accept this you must also accept that people will do similar things to spread their religious ideologies.

P.S: I'm an atheist
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Old 2011-07-01, 07:05   Link #3210
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Given that proselytizing often produces a "loss" result (driving people away or wanting to throw things)... simply *BEING* a stellar role model would be more likely to attract possible adherents. Some of the best advertisements for Mormonism I ever encountered never said a word about their faith -- they were just stellar role models. OTOH... we have a raft of rabid fundamentalists who were/are noted to "behave poorly" while coercing people (no matter what religion).

This is what many people waving their holy scripts forget... of course, the *history* of proselytizing isn't necessarily happy -- a fair amount of it was "holybook and sword" (convert or die).
Well, the only thing I can see is that the proselytizing religions have the most adherents worldwide, and I'd also say most of them were not simply gained by conversion "by the sword" though that was often involved.

The world's largest religion, Christianity, is only so because it has a heavy drive to "spread the word" that has existed since it's inception, and while much of christianity's success was because of conversion from the state downwards, the reason these states converted in the first place was because the churches sent missionaries specifically to powerful figures to convert them.

Consider Korea. Now 30% of it's population is Christian, all converted in a span of 60 years. That could never have happened were it not for the work of Missionaries. Evangelization works, but it doesn't work when it comes to people who are set in their views (like most of the people commenting on this thread).

Islam, of course, is the other large religion. Of course it was never really directly prosletized, but as a religion it was still spread by it's followers.

Likewise Buddhism only exists as it does today because Buddhists proselityze and look for adherents.

In contrast, more indigenous religions, say Hinduism, Chinese Folk Religion, or even Judaism have almost no presence outside their home countries and diaspora.
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Old 2011-07-01, 15:18   Link #3211
synaesthetic
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Probably the largest source of conversion comes from what essentially amounts to bribery... "charity" missions and shelters take in poor, desperate people and convert them in exchange for a hot meal and a warm bed.

Pretty shady stuff if you ask me, especially in the Bible Belt states, where nearly all charitable shelters and food banks are heavily faith-based. When I was in trouble during the 2008 economic crash, I ended up living in the storage room of my friend's coffee shop for three months, cleaning the store and running errands in exchange for a small amount of money to buy food, because none of the shelters would accept a lesbian atheist who wanted nothing to do with their faith.

It's not charity, it's bribery. Convert to our religion, worship our sky fairy, pretend to be someone you aren't... or starve on the streets. Coercion at its finest. If they were truly concerned with helping people, they would not have refused to help me based on my sexual orientation, gender identity and lack of adherence to their faith.
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Old 2011-07-01, 15:30   Link #3212
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Probably the largest source of conversion comes from what essentially amounts to bribery... "charity" missions and shelters take in poor, desperate people and convert them in exchange for a hot meal and a warm bed.

Pretty shady stuff if you ask me, especially in the Bible Belt states, where nearly all charitable shelters and food banks are heavily faith-based. When I was in trouble during the 2008 economic crash, I ended up living in the storage room of my friend's coffee shop for three months, cleaning the store and running errands in exchange for a small amount of money to buy food, because none of the shelters would accept a lesbian atheist who wanted nothing to do with their faith.

It's not charity, it's bribery. Convert to our religion, worship our sky fairy, pretend to be someone you aren't... or starve on the streets. Coercion at its finest. If they were truly concerned with helping people, they would not have refused to help me based on my sexual orientation, gender identity and lack of adherence to their faith.
Eh. It's not like they're the ones who put you on the street. Even if there's a bit of quid pro quo in their providing food and shelter, what of it?
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Old 2011-07-01, 15:40   Link #3213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Eh. It's not like they're the ones who put you on the street. Even if there's a bit of quid pro quo in their providing food and shelter, what of it?
Hypocrisy. They claim to be in it to help people, but they're actually in it to increase the size of the flock. As I said, if they were actually in it to help people--which, in less-backwards states than Oklahoma, they often are--people would not be turned away based on religious belief or sexual orientation. They would be accepted without regard or judgment--which is, as far as I can tell, what their own prophet intended them to do!

In San Francisco, a church called Glide helps loads of LGBT youth and young adults who are in tight spots, and they're highly recommended by all the LGBT groups and activist organizations in the area. I was there for one day, and I was so impressed with their attitude that I actually donated to their charity after I got back on my feet.

Not all religious charities play this game. Not in California, anyway--though I'm sure there are some evangelical organizations here that do. However, it's very commonly played in the South, especially among known corrupt organizations like the Salvation Army.
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Old 2011-07-01, 16:08   Link #3214
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Hypocrisy. They claim to be in it to help people, but they're actually in it to increase the size of the flock. As I said, if they were actually in it to help people--which, in less-backwards states than Oklahoma, they often are--people would not be turned away based on religious belief or sexual orientation. They would be accepted without regard or judgment--which is, as far as I can tell, what their own prophet intended them to do!
I'd say that depends on what they perceive as "help". Their attitude is consistent with the thought that you can't help someone who won't help himself, and that the worst problem anyone can have is to not be christian.
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Old 2011-07-01, 16:24   Link #3215
Endless Soul
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...the worst problem anyone can have is to not be christian.
Yep, heard that plenty of times. One of the reasons why I stopped being religious. Actually I don't think I was ever religious, I just simply stopped going to church.
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Old 2011-07-01, 16:28   Link #3216
Archon_Wing
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Heh... love and respect people. Only when it's convenient.
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Old 2011-07-01, 16:39   Link #3217
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'd say that depends on what they perceive as "help". Their attitude is consistent with the thought that you can't help someone who won't help himself, and that the worst problem anyone can have is to not be christian.
The parable of the good samaritan is huge denial of this position. There is simply not excuse to not show compassion to the needy.

I think that it's never been stressed enough how much Samaritans were hated by jews at the time.

To really understand how much provocative was this parable to the people Jesus was talking to you'd need to imagine that the priest and the cleric are a priest and a cleric of your own christian faith and that the samaritan is a muslim.
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Old 2011-07-01, 16:58   Link #3218
Anh_Minh
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... I'm an atheist, not a christian.

And it's not like the Jew in the parable willfully set out to get himself injured and robbed.
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Old 2011-07-01, 17:06   Link #3219
Jan-Poo
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I wasn't talking to you but to those christian that discriminate on religion when they do charity.
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Old 2011-07-01, 18:25   Link #3220
erneiz_hyde
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Spoiler for bordering on a debate:


I think people need to start seeing each other as what they are, not by what religion is behind them or the lack thereof, and generalizing them that way. The fact is that there are good people in every faith.

I've heard though that atheists outside of Europe still have to hide their atheism, even in the USA, so I understand if some people are bitter towards religion and have the need to vent this somewhere like the internet.
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