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Old 2011-07-05, 00:14   Link #1101
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Well it might be planned. It's not like Kamachi doesn't know how to develop a character.
Problem is that Touma is already his ideal hero; he's everything Kamachi wants to have in a Hero. Every decision he has to make is swift; he's not wishy-washy or gets bogged down by inferior complex like Accelerator and Hamazura. The one true uncertainty moment he had was about lying to Index, and hell he got over it all by himself within that same volume.

But I suppose there are ways to develop a character without changing his personality; we can opt to reveal more about his past, which I call the Hayate method- where we learn that he had a childhood lover... There's a big gap being going to Academy City, and meeting Mikoto.

Then there's the Nanoha method- the closest thing that felt like a character development is when she got Vivio. Now Touma doesn't have to do the same, but by throwing in a disturbance into his daily life (more disturbing than usual), he might have to change tactics.

And yes, anything rather than the cliche gone to the dark side route.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2011-07-05 at 00:29.
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Old 2011-07-05, 03:18   Link #1102
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
To be honest, I'd be really interesting to see Touma's ideals get twisted as time goes on, to the point where Accelerator and Hamazura go "What the hell, hero?" Not that he would make a drastic Face Heel Turn or even be "evil", but that his own ideals get in the way of a greater good, which the other two guys can clearly see.
I cannot say this to Hamazura. But Accelerator definitely has no ground to say such a thing. Consider Accelerator has announced his firm stance on defending Last Order>>>>>>>rest of the world.
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Old 2011-07-05, 03:20   Link #1103
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I cannot say this to Hamazura. But Accelerator definitely has no ground to say such a thing. Consider Accelerator has announced his firm stance on defending Last Order>>>>>>>rest of the world.

Nay, I'm pretty sure it's the same with Hamazura- For a girl, he's willing to commit atrocity if he has to.
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Old 2011-07-05, 08:22   Link #1104
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Nay, I'm pretty sure it's the same with Hamazura- For a girl, he's willing to commit atrocity if he has to.
You mean vol. 22 epilogue? Yeah, is unknown that Hamazura did to that girl .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

But I suppose there are ways to develop a character without changing his personality; we can opt to reveal more about his past, which I call the Hayate method- where we learn that he had a childhood lover... There's a big gap being going to Academy City, and meeting Mikoto.

Then there's the Nanoha method- the closest thing that felt like a character development is when she got Vivio. Now Touma doesn't have to do the same, but by throwing in a disturbance into his daily life (more disturbing than usual), he might have to change tactics.

And yes, anything rather than the cliche gone to the dark side route.
In vol. 22 Touma still shows that is afraid that Index will leave him.
As I said before, if Index can gets away from Touma, that practically will destroy Touma's reasons to return to his normal world and maybe can start a change for him be it for good or bad (just like Izzard did).
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Old 2011-07-05, 08:49   Link #1105
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
In vol. 22 Touma still shows that is afraid that Index will leave him.
As I said before, if Index can gets away from Touma, that practically will destroy Touma's reasons to return to his normal world and maybe can start a change for him be it for good or bad (just like Izzard did).
Touma's not the type to mop- at least not for long; he would simply go after Index and bring her back.
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Old 2011-07-05, 09:27   Link #1106
I_am_Kami
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Problem is that Touma is already his ideal hero; he's everything Kamachi wants to have in a Hero. Every decision he has to make is swift; he's not wishy-washy or gets bogged down by inferior complex like Accelerator and Hamazura. The one true uncertainty moment he had was about lying to Index, and hell he got over it all by himself within that same volume.

But I suppose there are ways to develop a character without changing his personality; we can opt to reveal more about his past, which I call the Hayate method- where we learn that he had a childhood lover... There's a big gap being going to Academy City, and meeting Mikoto.

Then there's the Nanoha method- the closest thing that felt like a character development is when she got Vivio. Now Touma doesn't have to do the same, but by throwing in a disturbance into his daily life (more disturbing than usual), he might have to change tactics.

And yes, anything rather than the cliche gone to the dark side route.
Even though it's sorta cliche it's still one thats good to see. Touma needs to have a change in him and I am all for a bit of evil.
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Old 2011-07-05, 09:42   Link #1107
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Even though it's sorta cliche it's still one thats good to see. Touma needs to have a change in him and I am all for a bit of evil.

I don't know... Everything that you guys said about going down the dark side feels like a deterioration of his character rather than an improvement. If changing him makes him a worse character than when he first started out, why would you want to do that?


See, the main reason why we want to see a character change is because there's something about him or her that we don't like, and we want them to overcome it, that's the kind of positive change that we want to see.


But Touma doesn't come with the natural weakness that Male protagonists are born with. He's isn't indecisive and whiny about what must be done, he isn't bogged down by some internal angst or guilt, and he certainly isn't getting carried away with his power. So you have to ask yourself; what more can you add to a character like that?


So the way I see it there are two routes; one is to keep his character the same, but you can expand on his past. But if you're adamant about forcing a change in his personality for the better, I say Touma should stop trying to protect others so much and let them help him more.
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Old 2011-07-05, 10:02   Link #1108
Drifting Wolf
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In my opinion, a fully developed character like that would be rather difficult to carry on a storyline with. He isn't indecisive, he doesn't whine about what must be done when he gets down to it and he doesn't get drunk on his power. These are the points you highlighted. In this case, it gives him very little bubbles of space of fill in the cracks, also as you've pointed out.

However, that is also a detriment to his character as a whole. Why? When we read a character, we don't expect them to be a perfect 'hero' character, he's supposed to be a 'everyday man' like you and me, just simply drawn into situations beyond his control. The fact that he has the guts to face them is a point in his favour... and a point against him.

Again, why? Simply - His memory loss. I found it remarkably that he did not show any signs of fear, hostility, panic or even hysteria at waking up with a blank slate. No, instead, he gets explained the situation by a bunch of people he doesn't remember, throwing strange terms at him that he should not possibly understand even though entire brain cells got damaged and entire years of knowledge and reasoning were wiped clean. From a psychology standpoint, he should have suffered a nervous breakdown.

But he didn't.

Some people can live with that... some people can't. I for one, actually facepalmed at the way the author handled it. In giving him that reaction and that so-called fortitude, unrealistic though it may be, it basically will stunt his growth as a character. And even then, it's highly dumb that he could remember how to even do his homework or even what the word Esper means.

For some people, it was a touching scene and a badass one... but to me, it was very poorly executed. It would have been a perfect chance to actually explore the naked insecurities of Kamijou Touma - How would he have reacted to having people know him but all he can come up with is a blank? His fears would have been laid bare, he would have needed support and encouragement from people. Yes, forging straight ahead is good and all, but what about the past? Isn't it the past that drives you forward and actually defines your present character?

Or maybe I'm too much into debating lately.

The reason why people love/hate the 'he was in the dark side' cliche is because it gives him a plausible character growth whereby we discover that he too has once sunk into the darkness and it changed him from a wimp to a helpful, overzealous hero who's still wimpy at heart but does the right thing.

We don't want perfect heroes, after all. We want heroes that we can empathize and connect with. Or at least, I want it.

<.<

Sorry for wall of text. If it's a rant, hope I didn't offend anyone. ^^
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Old 2011-07-05, 10:13   Link #1109
Chaos2Frozen
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Just one thing to correct; different memories are stored in different parts of the Brain. Just because he can't remember anything that happened before waking up in that hospital bed doesn't mean he suddenly can't do math or forgotten what Espers are because the informations are in separate locations.
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Old 2011-07-05, 10:21   Link #1110
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I cannot say this to Hamazura. But Accelerator definitely has no ground to say such a thing. Consider Accelerator has announced his firm stance on defending Last Order>>>>>>>rest of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Nay, I'm pretty sure it's the same with Hamazura- For a girl, he's willing to commit atrocity if he has to.
Which makes it even more interesting, because they realize that what Touma (twisted ideals) is doing isn't that different. Which makes them wonder how far they would go to protect their girl.
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Old 2011-07-05, 10:36   Link #1111
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
snip
having a good idolized character turn bad is a good thing. It affects all the other characters that follow Touma and if Touma is ruthless it also has a touch of bad assery. It's nice to see him punch bitches but now we got to see him kill some.

Haven't you felt Toumas best moments are when he loses his arm and scares the big baddies?
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Old 2011-07-05, 10:41   Link #1112
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Haven't you felt Toumas best moments are when he loses his arm and scares the big baddies?


Heck.Yes.
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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

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Old 2011-07-05, 12:51   Link #1113
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't know... Everything that you guys said about going down the dark side feels like a deterioration of his character rather than an improvement. If changing him makes him a worse character than when he first started out, why would you want to do that?


See, the main reason why we want to see a character change is because there's something about him or her that we don't like, and we want them to overcome it, that's the kind of positive change that we want to see.


But Touma doesn't come with the natural weakness that Male protagonists are born with. He's isn't indecisive and whiny about what must be done, he isn't bogged down by some internal angst or guilt, and he certainly isn't getting carried away with his power. So you have to ask yourself; what more can you add to a character like that?


So the way I see it there are two routes; one is to keep his character the same, but you can expand on his past. But if you're adamant about forcing a change in his personality for the better, I say Touma should stop trying to protect others so much and let them help him more.
A change doesn't implies a derailment of his character, the author did it with Accelerator, if he along with Shiage are described as those who knocks the ground yet stand up on their feets, a fall on his path will only lead him to stand up again to try to solve the problem and by problem I mean a very personal that threatens to change his own world if he takes the wrong step.

Ah, guilt, you should read what Touma feels after July 30th.

@Mr. Kyon: I agree that Touma going crazy and scaring the hell out of his enemies is very cool but that doesn't make him evil just a bit mad/crazy. Fiamma wanted to save the world and Touma just a single girl.
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Old 2011-07-05, 16:16   Link #1114
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Which makes it even more interesting, because they realize that what Touma (twisted ideals) is doing isn't that different. Which makes them wonder how far they would go to protect their girl.

...I'm pretty sure both of them already went very far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
having a good idolized character turn bad is a good thing. It affects all the other characters that follow Touma and if Touma is ruthless it also has a touch of bad assery. It's nice to see him punch bitches but now we got to see him kill some.

Haven't you felt Toumas best moments are when he loses his arm and scares the big baddies?
We've already seen him in his ruthless side when he was subduing the terrorists; lets say we add more scenes like that, it doesn't really change his core character.

Now lets say he kills someone, how does that change his character for the better? I certainly don't want to see Touma turning into just a catalyst for the other characters' development.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
A change doesn't implies a derailment of his character, the author did it with Accelerator, if he along with Shiage are described as those who knocks the ground yet stand up on their feets, a fall on his path will only lead him to stand up again to try to solve the problem and by problem I mean a very personal that threatens to change his own world if he takes the wrong step.
You don't get my point; if you want to change his character- make sure you're doing it for the better. We already know that if Touma gets knocked down on he will get back up so there's nothing new or surprising there. A threat to his personal life might be something new, but it doesn't change what he must do, or rather what he always do.

Lets say you make him angsty for a longer period of time, how is that not a deterioration?

Lets say Touma does have this fall, and when he gets back up- what part of his character would change for the better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Ah, guilt, you should read what Touma feels after July 30th.
Perhaps he does feel guilty, but he doesn't let it bog him down.
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Old 2011-07-05, 16:51   Link #1115
I_am_Kami
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You forget that Touma "died". He has three different personalities now.
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Old 2011-07-05, 16:56   Link #1116
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
You forget that Touma "died". He has three different personalities now.
Each one controls one of his powers. He has three powers, right?
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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2011-07-05, 16:57   Link #1117
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Some one pointed out its only two powers which I can't really tell.
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Old 2011-07-05, 17:01   Link #1118
Mr.Kyon
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Well, IB is a power, right? He's supposed to have two powers inside him that are held back by IB. Second crushes Fiamma's Higher-than-God powers, third outdoes the second. I think, my mind is rusty.
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Believer of the Great Sumeragi.

One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2011-07-05, 17:08   Link #1119
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Someone was saying it was only two. It's hard to tell.
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Old 2011-07-05, 17:12   Link #1120
Ashaman
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Quote:
What he is missing is depth, which Hamazura and Accelerator (ESPECIALLY him) don't lack
I think you are confusing depth and darkness here.

Which is deeper, someone choosing to kill in order to protect, or one who refuses to kill, instead forging a path that will save the one they want to protect without taking the lives of others?

In some ways, the latter is deeper than the former.

Sure, Accel is an all round deeper character than Touma, and I can understand your frustration with his Static status, but please don't call Touma shallow because he is at peace with his Demons.

There are other indications of depth than inner conflict.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but from some of the comments I get the feeling you want Touma to be darker, which is fine, but darker does not mean deeper, which is what you are actually arguing for.

Take Yuno - dark character, and for 55 chapters as deep as a puddle.
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