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Old 2011-07-05, 00:33   Link #201
Sokolov
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Hey guys, do you think Madoka qualifies as a Knight in Sour Armor?

Spoiler:

That's what I think.
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-07-05, 05:54   Link #202
omimon
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Can be the other way round too...
If you think that way than I think you completely missed what the producers were trying to do.
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Old 2011-07-05, 06:12   Link #203
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
If you think that way than I think you completely missed what the producers were trying to do.
Maybe but there's always more than one meaning to anything especially lyrics like that. It's artistic interpretation no?
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Old 2011-07-05, 07:29   Link #204
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I don't think it can really work as Madoka's song. It's a bit of a stretch to find a part in the series where the lyrics all fit her.

It fits more easily with Homura's struggle across timelines.
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Old 2011-07-05, 08:08   Link #205
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i honestly believe that there is no absolutely one way of pure certainty of interpreting the pmmm op and ed songs. to think otherwise is to limit the creative exercise or scope of the composers in mind. personally, i think it's more of homu-chan's perspective especially after ep 10. even madoka's character song in the first cd, i believe can be interpreted in homu's view.

however, that doesn't stop people looking at the other side of the hill. especially after ep 12. there are lines in the op song that fit madoka too if not more. the "promise we made", aptly applies for both of the girls. same too for the "future that i lost". "again and again, i'll tear apart the shadow of distress" seems to fit homu's time travel more. and so on.

but in the full lyrics, "When I look back, I had friends / When I noticed it, I was gently embraced". another translation would be "My friends were there when I looked back / They gave me a warm hug if they noticed". these lines fit madoka more. for homu, she has only one friend. mado has more. then "If my voice can reach you / Then I can certainly create a miracle, right?" both for the girls, but mado seems to be more believable especially if you are looking at the 'literal' interpretation as supported by ep 12. too lazy to look for more.

so my take here is that the beauty of the songs is multi-perspective. and i really wouldn't mind exactly who's the character singing the song. this is their story after all~

Last edited by kaigan; 2011-07-05 at 08:19.
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Old 2011-07-05, 08:12   Link #206
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I don't think it can really work as Madoka's song. It's a bit of a stretch to find a part in the series where the lyrics all fit her.

It fits more easily with Homura's struggle across timelines.
Yes but to me it also means Madoka finally coming to terms with Homu's sacrifice in the previous timelines and finally resolving everything with her acension.

A song of awakening and resolution in other words.
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Old 2011-07-05, 12:28   Link #207
rantuyetmai
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Originally Posted by Sokolov View Post
Spoiler:
I respectfully disagree with the opinion Madoka had changed. She has, in fact, always been and will always be the same person, a girl who is willing to do whatever she can to help the others if she has the means to do so. Let me point out her qualities, which are very consistent no matter which timeline.

Examine the Madoka during anime, she is very ordinary. A little shy and feel inferior due to being average in almost everything, but there's nothing dramatic - that's just exactly how most Asian kids are. She's energetic at home, is a bright child, is close to her mother, can exchange conversations smartly with her parents, behave happily and gently around her friends (Oh God, Yunocchi!).

A person who doesn't judge. Although being asked some strange questions by a transfer student, Madoka didn't jump to conclusion or be suspicious, only confused. Legitimately so. That's already a nice quality. See Sayaka’s reaction (“I thought she was one of those smart and beautiful girls who are well-read and athletic, but instead she is one hell of a nut”) to compare.

Her EQ is quite high. Madoka could notice some subtlety behind Homura's expressions and conversations, that's why she doubted that the girl is just plain evil. Despite everyone on her side (Mami, Sayaka) expressed negative view on Homura, Madoka is the only one who is capable of questioning "I wonder if she's really a bad person". This is one of the primary factor that set Madoka apart from Sayaka, because she tried to understand a person instead of “let’s decide she is evil and be hostile toward her, because my impression told me so”.

She fought in her own way and being brave when the situation call for it. Having no power due to being normal human, she contributed by silently protecting Sayaka. Would you follow your best friend on their witch hunt, just so if they're ever in danger you will make a wish and save them? Did you take time to wonder why this "useless girl who does nothing but cry" is out there in the witch's barrier, instead of being in her room safe and warm? All on her own accord. Even without power, she's got an amazingly brave heart.

A determined person. Madoka did the above not once, but multiple times for Sayaka. She did it despite having near-death experience inside several witch’s barriers, despite knowing you can die by being a MG (Mami...),then at last, despite knowing that being a MG is essentially dead. She knew it and still willing to throw her life away to be Sayaka's insurance ticket. She was so ready to make the wish for her friend (see ep. 8). And still so ready to go when Kyouko asked her help.

A human who values her life. What made me glad was Madoka didn't wish to save Mami. I loved Mami, but realistically Madoka only knew her for a few days. After being confronted with monsters, death (and later on "OMG zombie" revelation), she was terriefied like any human does. Accepting to fight forever and possibly die anytime for a new acquaintance would be ridiculous. You can't ask any sane person to do that. If Madoka did wish for that I wouldn't call her brave, I'd call her ⑨. This is a good quality because, I’ll let you know, a person who doesn’t value themself is just trash. It’s only meaningful to save the others when you respect your life then accept to exchange that life for a good deed.

Empathetic and smart. DAT wish. Her city, her family and friends and countless lives are in danger and Homura cannot protect them. Madoka knew her wish is the only way out for all these people, but she is smart enough to get the most out of the situation. Becoming a MG can defeat WN, she can still safely live after that as MG like Mami and Kyouko used to do. Scratch that, how’s about saving more people than just her city? Without being empathetic, she wouldn’t have thought to do something for all MGs in history. How many people there are who can accurately guess Madoka’s wish? Very few, because not many of us gave those ancient MGs much mind like Madoka did.


Wait, why does this Madoka sound so familiar?
Spoiler for Because:

TL;DR: Madoka didn't become someone else during the anime. She is not different from the girl whom Homura first met. That girl is always the same person who had saved the cat, who had saved Homura, who had risked her life for Sayaka, who had died for her city, who is trapped in eternity to bring MG salvation. - all out of kindness. As a point you should notice, Homura had never ever felt "this is not my Madoka, where is the cool girl I used to know? bawww", because she knew all along Madoka didn't change.

Madoka may not wear a cape, she may not wield a sword being gungho at her enemy, but she's just as good as any hero you can name. Too bad life dictated that people like her, who are not gungho, will be addressed as weak no matter how brave they are. Ain't appearance everything?


Spoiler:

Last edited by rantuyetmai; 2011-07-05 at 17:13.
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Old 2011-07-05, 19:05   Link #208
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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
Madoka may not wear a cape, she may not wield a sword being gungho at her enemy, but she's just as good as any hero you can name. Too bad life dictated that people like her, who are not gungho, will be addressed as weak no matter how brave they are. Ain't appearance everything?
You can't blame them for seeing her like that. After all, Madoka too always saw herself as useless and weak. It was only in those moments across timelines when she was a magical girl that she could believe in herself (this is made very blatant in the drama cd).

Don't get me wrong, Madoka is everything you said she is, I agree. But she herself was never able to see that, unless she was wearing the cape. So it's only natural the viewer would feel negatively towards her too.

Personally, I could see Madoka was really strong and kind since the first episode, after all, that's part of the trope for the magical girl genre. What I really wanted to see, though, was Madoka herself realizing that, without the need of magical powers boosting her confidence. Alas, such moment never came....
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Old 2011-07-05, 19:44   Link #209
Sokolov
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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
I respectfully disagree with the opinion Madoka had changed. She has, in fact, always been and will always be the same person, a girl who is willing to do whatever she can to help the others if she has the means to do so. Let me point out her qualities, which are very consistent no matter which timeline.
I actually tend to agree with this. My point isn't that Madoka herself changed, rather how Homura's "interference" changes the way Madoka comes to gain the confidence and conviction to be the person she has always been. It took longer without being a magical girl, but it still happened, precisely because it is who she is - no matter what she might or might not be.

Kazu-kun basically echoed what I was talking about as well. Though I am not saying it in a negative manner - I actually think it's a rather important but subtle message of the anime (intended or otherwise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Personally, I could see Madoka was really strong and kind since the first episode, after all, that's part of the trope for the magical girl genre. What I really wanted to see, though, was Madoka herself realizing that, without the need of magical powers boosting her confidence. Alas, such moment never came....
For me, it did come and that is what enabled her to make the wish she did, except we don't really get to see it play out in her every day life or how exactly she realized it. Maybe that's what you were talking about.

Last edited by Sokolov; 2011-07-05 at 19:56.
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Old 2011-07-05, 20:04   Link #210
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For me, it did come and that is what enabled her to make the wish she did, except we don't really get to see it play out in her every day life or how exactly she realized it. Maybe that's what you were talking about.
I disagree. Her confidence boost at the end came from her decision to make the contract, and no the other way around. What enabled her to make THAT wish was the know-how she acquired during the series, and specially in the latter episodes when Kyubei info-dumped her throughly. But the will to do it, the will to make this huge sacrifice for everyone else, was something that was already withing her since episode 1, not something she gained at the end.

Madoka never changed, she always was a girl with immense inner strength. The problem is that, unless she was a magical girl, she was somehow unable to see her own strength. And that too, never changed.
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Old 2011-07-05, 21:17   Link #211
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I honestly cannot believe that she could have made that wish if she didn't believe she could actually pull it off. She clearly knew the wish she'd make - it didn't come after the contract, in fact, it was needed for her to make the wish she did in the first place.

And to me, the wish she made is a direct manifestation of her confidence. The contract, at that point, was just a technicality; and whatever had to be done, she would do. Knowing how to do something, and having the conviction to actually go through with it are different things, and believing that she can accomplish something that miraculous, is a statement in itself.

I believe she decided on that wish before she left the shelter. The conversation she has with her mother showed us the true Madoka revealing herself in this timeline. And, after arriving at Homura's side, it was basically the same scene we saw in Timeline One where Magical Girl Madoka told Normal Homura she had to go. The difference is that this time, Normal Madoka was telling Magical Girl Homura that while not a Magical Girl, and having never been one in that timeline. I am not sure if the juxtaposition was intentional, but for me it clearly shows that Madoka's conviction came from herself this time.

(Feel free to continue the discussion, or we can just agree to disagree too!)

Last edited by Sokolov; 2011-07-05 at 23:56.
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Old 2011-07-06, 01:42   Link #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Hey guys, do you think Madoka qualifies as a Knight in Sour Armor?

Spoiler:

That's what I think.
Madoka isn't cynical or anything like that...
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Old 2011-07-06, 23:45   Link #213
omimon
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Yes but to me it also means Madoka finally coming to terms with Homu's sacrifice in the previous timelines and finally resolving everything with her acension.

A song of awakening and resolution in other words.
I don't want to be one of those people that forces interpretations and beliefs on others but the whole point of the OP being at the end of epi 10 and showing it after Homura's back story is to show that that song is 100% about Homura and Madoka has nothing to do with it.


Your interpretation is looking at it from Madoka's point of view after episode 12 and after she became a god. The OP at the end of episode ten wasn't for shits and giggles.

But if you still want to believe that it has something to do with Madoka than I've got nothing to say.
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Old 2011-07-07, 00:01   Link #214
rantuyetmai
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You can't blame them for seeing her like that. After all, Madoka too always saw herself as useless and weak. It was only in those moments across timelines when she was a magical girl that she could believe in herself (this is made very blatant in the drama cd).

Don't get me wrong, Madoka is everything you said she is, I agree. But she herself was never able to see that, unless she was wearing the cape. So it's only natural the viewer would feel negatively towards her too.

Personally, I could see Madoka was really strong and kind since the first episode, after all, that's part of the trope for the magical girl genre. What I really wanted to see, though, was Madoka herself realizing that, without the need of magical powers boosting her confidence. Alas, such moment never came....
Hahaha, true, like you said I can see why people would view her in a negative light. However there's a difference between disliking someone for their inconfidence and disliking someone by thinking they're truly "useless". The former is just taste in personality, the latter is outright ignorance. Ignorance because it demonstrates a lack of observation to the inner qualities.

Many people liked Yuno from Hidamari Sketch because despite her confidence issue, she is a cute and kind kid. Madoka is Yuno (Urobuchi admited that much), now despite her being cute and kind, people think she's a lesser person because she has confidence issue.

That came right down to a dangerous assumption that many anime fans have: in an action series if you don't step up to fight, if you don't prove your gut, then you're a worthless human, btw we don't care much whether you have a reason to fight or not, just find one! In fact, may as well make finding the thing you want to fight for the purpose of your life!

..... That's just morally disturbing.

These fans rapidly forgot that for a human it's enough to: be a good person, take time to develop yourself during the course of your life, live happily, make everyone around you happy, and NO NEED to be a matyr. Madoka's confidence issue is not big to begin with (as I said, it's only Yuno's level). She isn't emo, she didn't let the thought "I'm so useless" affect her life severely. So I find the thought "she need to change to save the world" an unreasonable expectation.



^ Umm, sorry for the rant, I just wanted to write these thoughts out. It's not directed at you or anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I disagree. Her confidence boost at the end came from her decision to make the contract, and no the other way around. What enabled her to make THAT wish was the know-how she acquired during the series, and specially in the latter episodes when Kyubey info-dumped her throughly. But the will to do it, the will to make this huge sacrifice for everyone else, was something that was already within her since episode 1, not something she gained at the end.

Madoka never changed, she always was a girl with immense inner strength. The problem is that, unless she was a magical girl, she was somehow unable to see her own strength. And that too, never changed.
I agree.


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Originally Posted by Sokolov View Post
I honestly cannot believe that she could have made that wish if she didn't believe she could actually pull it off.
Not even talking about wish, Madoka wouldn't do anything if she didn't believe it will work. That's just rational. Remember how she throw Sayaka's SG away because she believed that will prevent the fight?

This aspect proved she can always perform strong action if she thought it was needed, but didn't make up the "confident Madoka" we're speaking of. The one we're speaking of is someone who acts more firmly on the outward, more pushy if you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokolov View Post
She clearly knew the wish she'd make - it didn't come after the contract, in fact, it was needed for her to make the wish she did in the first place.

And to me, the wish she made is a direct manifestation of her confidence. The contract, at that point, was just a technicality; and whatever had to be done, she would do. Knowing how to do something, and having the conviction to actually go through with it are different things, and believing that she can accomplish something that miraculous, is a statement in itself.

I believe she decided on that wish before she left the shelter. The conversation she has with her mother showed us the true Madoka revealing herself in this timeline. And, after arriving at Homura's side, it was basically the same scene we saw in Timeline One where Magical Girl Madoka told Normal Homura she had to go. The difference is that this time, Normal Madoka was telling Magical Girl Homura that while not a Magical Girl, and having never been one in that timeline. I am not sure if the juxtaposition was intentional, but for me it clearly shows that Madoka's conviction came from herself this time.
You're kinda missing on Kazu-kun's point, what he said was "Her confidence boost at the end came from her decision to make the contract." Meaning the moment she decided that wish in her head is what counted, only after that moment did she act more firm. I agree she made this decision before leaving the shelter.

Madoka of course doesn't have to be a MG to be confident, no one thinks so.

On a large part, I found the statement "the wish she made is a direct manifestation of her confidence" wrong. The situation seemed reverse as pointed out by Kazu-kun above. On a small part, it's true that without some sort of self-confidence, Madoka wouldn't rely on her ability to think and decide.

Madoka's wish is, to me, the manifestation of kindness and knowledge.
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Old 2011-07-07, 01:01   Link #215
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Hmm... just to make sure I understand your point of view.

You suggest that it wasn't because she finally grew confident enough of her ability to be who she wanted to be (something she frequently questioned throughout) that caused/allowed her to make the contract, but rather that she had always wanted to do something and would have, had she known how to do it (knowledge)?

I really can't see it that way. Certainly she needed knowledge to put the specifics of the wish together, and certainly she is a kind person... but knowledge doesn't give you the courage to do something, and kind is who she is, and that certainly didn't get to her to contract prior to the end. Something else was needed to bring her to a point where she said, "Yes, I CAN do this, and I WILL."

EDIT 2: Then again, one could argue that the type of knowledge she was getting could actually give her the confidence she needed about her role. Maybe that's the kind of manifestation of knowledge you meant? (Yes... I didn't manage to close the browser...)

Anyway... circling back. The whole point of this was that I felt that it was interesting that in the original timeline, Madoka displayed much more confidence, with the implication being that she had gained that while as a Magical Girl. But in our timeline, she didn't have that opportunity - and had to find that confidence elsewhere - in my opinion, from within. Is this something you disagree with? I know you don't feel she is a different person, and I don't really feel that way either. It's quite clear she is still Madoka, except that she was less sure of herself, and pretty much says so.

(EDIT: Ugh, I am spending far too much time here reading all the great analysis and discussion... and I appreciate the discussion here with me in particular. No matter how I may inadvertently come across, I am enjoying it! And now... MUST... CLOSE... BROWSER)

Last edited by Sokolov; 2011-07-07 at 01:22.
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Old 2011-07-07, 02:31   Link #216
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I think part of what influences the perception of people as to whether a character is "strong" or "weak" is the disparity between what they can do and what they want to do. The more the latter is beyond the former the more likely the character will appear to be "weak," especially the more they bring up their inability to do what they want.

Take's rantuyetmai's example

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
Many people liked Yuno from Hidamari Sketch because despite her confidence issue, she is a cute and kind kid.
In an SoL story, there's not a big gap between what a character would want to do and what they can do. At worst, they're not very good at what they want to do. So, very little complaints about characters being "weak."

Quote:
Madoka is Yuno (Urobuchi admited that much), now despite her being cute and kind, people think she's a lesser person because she has confidence issue.
Madoka is witness to a major life-and-death struggle, she wants to do something to help, but can't do so without major negative consequences to herself. As a result, people accuse her of being "weak." Had she not been shown involved in witch fights, comments regarding her might have been "nice but boring" at worst.

Quote:
These fans rapidly forgot that for a human it's enough to: be a good person, take time to develop yourself during the course of your life, live happily, make everyone around you happy, and NO NEED to be a matyr.
Completely agree.
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Old 2011-07-07, 04:10   Link #217
rantuyetmai
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Originally Posted by Sokolov View Post
[...]
I think I know where the conflict in our understanding is.

The problem is that you're taking her confidence issue too far. Confidence, self-identity and growth were never the point this anime wanted to make, rather they're just a side note. The development in MSMM were more about how the characters perceive their situation, what are the choices they made given their position, and what are the outcome of such choices (character's fate and the impact they have on the others).

Madoka never has a problem to do a good deed if she think it's worth it. To decide, she doesn't need confidence, she only requires a good reason.

- What Madoka refused to trade:
  • Her life => Mami's life: someone she barely knew, sacrifice is unreasonable.
- What she accepted to trade:
  • A wish => a cat's life: couldn't bear to see a life snatched in front of her eyes. (TL1)
  • Her life => many lives in the city: fought WN to death (TL1, TL2, TL3)
  • A wish => Homura's life: couldn't bear to see a person being killed (TL4)
  • Her life => Sayaka's life: her best friend
  • Her existence => many lives in the city, happiness of all MGs: super beneficial
Knowledge played an important factor because that's how Madoka gauged which trade is a beneficial/reasonable one. Without knowing the nature of becoming a MG, she'd thought the payment is only her wish. Knowing it, it became putting her life on the table. Knowing even more, it became betting on eternity.

A good reason leads to understanding, which in turn give Madoka the confidence to follow through.


On the point that Madoka seemed much more sure of her self whenever she is a MG, this is easy to understand: when you don't believe you're useful or talented, you'll feel worthless and inferior; when you know you're doing something good or being successful, you'll feel confident and be more at ease, sometime even feel superior. Confidence is just a psychological issue, it can be fixed given the right external influences. Being a MG gives Madoka the sense of being useful, but the same result can be achieved by her helping out social organization, being accepted into a good university, getting a promotion in work, etc. Any kind of solid proof that she can do something will boost her esteem up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I think part of what influences the perception of people as to whether a character is "strong" or "weak" is the disparity between what they can do and what they want to do. The more the latter is beyond the former the more likely the character will appear to be "weak," especially the more they bring up their inability to do what they want.
Very good point.


On another note, seem like Japan likes Madoka the most out of MSMM.


Spoiler for Favorite anime girl Newtype 2011-08:

Last edited by rantuyetmai; 2011-07-07 at 04:26.
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Old 2011-07-07, 13:27   Link #218
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^
That was awesome, four favorite characters still right up there. ;D
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Old 2011-07-07, 17:34   Link #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post

- What Madoka refused to trade:
  • Her life => Mami's life: someone she barely knew, sacrifice is unreasonable.
- What she accepted to trade:
  • A wish => a cat's life: couldn't bear to see a life snatched in front of her eyes. (TL1)
  • Her life => many lives in the city: fought WN to death (TL1, TL2, TL3)
  • A wish => Homura's life: couldn't bear to see a person being killed (TL4)
  • Her life => Sayaka's life: her best friend
  • Her existence => many lives in the city, happiness of all MGs: super beneficial
But the two parts that I bold contradicts each other doesn't it? If she refused to save Mami's life because she was a stranger, why would she want to protect an entire city filled with people she barely knew?

Either she refused to safe Mami for another reason (like perhaps confidence issue), or she saved the city not for the entire inhabitant but for select few that she does know (which makes her not as selfless as we think she was). Or both.

Quote:
Confidence, self-identity and growth were never the point this anime wanted to make, rather they're just a side note.
No, they are also main points imo. Because to go from "refusing to help a stranger" to "saving the entire MG" requires growth, confidence, and self-identity.
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Old 2011-07-08, 01:11   Link #220
rantuyetmai
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
But the two parts that I bold contradicts each other doesn't it? If she refused to save Mami's life because she was a stranger, why would she want to protect an entire city filled with people she barely knew? Either she refused to save Mami for another reason (like perhaps confidence issue), or she saved the city not for the entire inhabitant but for select few that she does know (which makes her not as selfless as we think she was). Or both.
Is it strange to refuse to die for someone you barely know while agreeing to die for YOUR city?? No really, if your answer is "yes" then we'd better stop discussing this point, because obviously our sense of value is different. And I'm strange (Since I don't want to die for the next guy, but I'd enlist in military if I have to protect my country from war).

In HER city there are HER familiy, HER friends and their families, the places SHE was born and grew up in, then everyone else. Human feelings work strangely like that, we just keep attaching ourselves to what is OUR.

Let's me get this straight: refusing to exchange your life for a person who you barely has connection with is not cowardice, it's human. But leaving a massive amount of people die while you can stop it is cowardice, and a lesser human but human nonetheless. Madoka is neither a coward nor a senseless martyr.

On technical aspect: Let's say Madoka didn't have that big of a heart and decided to elope with her parents. Sounds easy enough isn't it? How does she convince them to go? You sure they will sudden listen to give up the house and jobs to go to God-know-where at their daughter request? Within the time constrain of several days? Can she accept most people and everything she has ever known up until now being destroyed? Is she sure WN will stop there, or will it crawl to her new place too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
she refused to save Mami for another reason (like perhaps confidence issue)
Please walk up to a confident person that you know of. Let him know that his friend whom he met 3 days ago are being held hostage by the mafia. Please ask him to join your gang and participate gun war everyday to save that friend. Make sure he knows that he can die anytime and he can't step out of the mafia world once he joined. Give him ample time (a month or more) to take in these info and decide.

Spoiler for Tip:


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
No, they are also main points imo. Because to go from "refusing to help a stranger" to "saving the entire MG" requires growth, confidence, and self-identity.
First, it's not "refusing to help a stranger" but "refusing to die for a stranger". Donation and sacrifice are different.

Second, Madoka didn't "go" from refusing to die for a stranger to saving the entire MG. As in a person doesn't "go" from "refusing to buy something he thinks not worth his money" to "giving lots of money to help poor kids". That's not proof of growth, that's proof of having opinion.

You see? Madoka didn't undergo the transformation "from a coward to a hero". That's just the person she is. She has her own sense of values and the ability to decide what's worth doing, what's not. If you give her enough good reasons, she'll do the deed. If Goddess Madoka retired her job and came back to Earth as a totally normal human, she'll still refuse to give up her life to revive a stranger.

Third, I won't force the "main point of a show" opinion on anyone because different people see different thing to learn. If you think MSMM taught you a lesson that "in life, you should go out there finding the reason to die for everyone, because that's growth, that's what make you a better human", sure. That'll be the main point the show wanted to relay for you

Last edited by rantuyetmai; 2011-07-08 at 12:47.
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