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Old 2011-07-15, 05:05   Link #421
ttdestroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mellomarie View Post
anyway, excellent second episode. the light-hearted-turned-dark episode reminds me a lot about utena, specifically the wakaba episodes
I think that's what will define this show, cuz they balance the light and dark like true pros.

I wonder if we can go three straight on each episode getting better, looks like you'll have to tune in next week to find out!
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Old 2011-07-15, 06:24   Link #422
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The second episode was just as fun as the first.

A stalker girl giving off yandere vibes and who has a diary able to predict the future in her possession... Yuno, is that you!? Well, this prove interesting. The symbol on Ringo is diary is in the ending, along with other symbols. Can we assume that means other magic objects will show up in the series?

Seeing two stalkers stalk a stalker proved to be even more entertaining than I thought it would. The penguins were hilarious! The two brothers are a great duo as well. Like 4tran, I find their interplay to be some of the best I've seen in a long time between two male characters (I quite enjoy the one in No. 6 too). Kanba's my favorite of the two brothers so far, the way he shoujo'd that girl in the train was impressive. And just to make sure, their seiyuus both have the same last name (Kimura) but they are not actually related, right?
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Old 2011-07-15, 09:01   Link #423
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Haha, this episode cracked me up. It’s a lot more hilarious and laid-back than the last episode, but still didn’t forget to include a twist at the end for us. Professional stalker? Future diary? Why am I not surprised.

Those penguins can be extremely useful and useless at the same time. No.2 sure likes his pesticide can. He's my favorite of the three.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
When we saw Kanba like this:
I cheered out loud. While Utena was far from the first show to frame bishounen with flowers, I think that Ikuhara owns the trademark on that.
If you look behind him in that scene, all other men are baldies. I don't remember it was like that before. Must be bishie power!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Tokyo Sky Metro's mascots seem to be called Double-H.
Hmm, I remember reading somewhere that they're called WH, which can be pronounced pretty similar to Double-H, so which is correct? Is there an official name somewhere?

Another question: this week's Survival Strategy meeting doesn't include the last scene where Himari takes sth out of Kan's chest, so does that mean it didn't happen? Or they just didn't show us?
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Old 2011-07-15, 09:02   Link #424
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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
I don't really wanna have the whole debate about it (I have it enough in other places) but since it seems semi-relevant to the matter at hand, homosexuality occurs naturally in hundreds of species for survival purposes. Some animals are known to form homosexual couples to adopt abandoned children and some studies show that the more children of the same gender a woman has, the higher the chance of each successive one being homosexual, probably for population control. A species that just grows exponentially won't last long, so in that sense population control would be a "survival strategy".
But is it practical? Sure, there will be a couple of homosexuals in every species for possible population control reasons, but too many could lead to the extinction of the species. At least that is how it works for most species. Homosexuals can't reproduce, they can yern for their own children and adopt the children that were procreated by heterosexual interactions, but they cannot reproduce on their own. It's an undeniable fact that if a significant amount of the ecosystem's population suddenly turned homosexual, many species would go extinct within a few hundred years, or sooner. Besides, it's not like the species will grow beyond its resources immediately because they reproduce; nature continues to provide all the nutriment they need as long as they stay within their means and don't try to go search for more than they need.

Any benefits homosexuality offers to survival is minimal and should be contained to small percentages of the population, as too much of it would result in extinction. And none of the possible benefits of having homosexuals in the population change the fact that to be homosexual is to go against nature, or the programmed DNA and instincts that are implanted in us. In other words, it goes against fate. It's the same thing as loving your sister, it's not "natural". Whether that's a bad or good thing here is still unclear though.
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Old 2011-07-15, 09:19   Link #425
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
But is it practical? Sure, there will be a couple of homosexuals in every species for possible population control reasons, but too many could lead to the extinction of the species. At least that is how it works for most species. Homosexuals can't reproduce, they can yern for their own children and adopt the children that were procreated by heterosexual interactions, but they cannot reproduce on their own. It's an undeniable fact that if a significant amount of the ecosystem's population suddenly turned homosexual, many species would go extinct within a few hundred years, or sooner. Besides, it's not like the species will grow beyond its resources immediately because they reproduce; nature continues to provide all the nutriment they need as long as they stay within their means and don't try to go search for more than they need.

Any benefits homosexuality offers to survival is minimal and should be contained to small percentages of the population, as too much of it would result in extinction. And none of the possible benefits of having homosexuals in the population change the fact that to be homosexual is to go against nature, or the programmed DNA and instincts that are implanted in us. In other words, it goes against fate. It's the same thing as loving your sister, it's not "natural". Whether that's a bad or good thing here is still unclear though.
It is not POSSIBLE for "too many" homosexuals to cause extinction. The entire argument is silly.

The only way homosexuality can increase is if it is somehow inherited genetically. However, if it is somehow passed on genetically then the entire argument about extinction vanishes. As if genes are passed on then there is no extinction danger.

Survival Strategy does NOT consider Homosexuals a threat. It can't be because the worst thing that can happen is that they cut themselves off from the gene pool. The very thing that you worry about is the very same thing that makes it harmless.

For as long as Homosexuality cannot be inherited, it cannot expand in the population. And if you find some means to bypass the restriction, through whatever human technology, then homosexuals CAN reproduce and suddenly the extinction risk becomes zero.

If at some point the human race obtained means to reproduce between any two human of any gender, that would extend Human Survival far better than the old fashioned restriction of a male/female pairing.

Think outside the box.

EDIT: In fewer words: The main complaint is that Homosexuality inhibit breeding. Hence because they don't breed, they can't pose a threat. But if science finds a way, they are STILL not a threat as then the original complaint becomes invalid.
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Old 2011-07-15, 09:59   Link #426
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Second episode was full of win. From the crazy survival strategy meeting to the lingerie store to the crazy stalker girl.

"Are those the holes they put their legs in?!!?"
"You dim witted young'in, those holes lead to the cosmos!"

Pure win. And that creepy stalker girl has a powerful diary. It seems she can write what she wants to happen and then stamps it with some creepy destiny image.

This series is something special.
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Old 2011-07-15, 10:05   Link #427
Suzuku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It is not POSSIBLE for "too many" homosexuals to cause extinction. The entire argument is silly.

The only way homosexuality can increase is if it is somehow inherited genetically. However, if it is somehow passed on genetically then the entire argument about extinction vanishes. As if genes are passed on then there is no extinction danger.

Survival Strategy does NOT consider Homosexuals a threat. It can't be because the worst thing that can happen is that they cut themselves off from the gene pool. The very thing that you worry about is the very same thing that makes it harmless.

For as long as Homosexuality cannot be inherited, it cannot expand in the population. And if you find some means to bypass the restriction, through whatever human technology, then homosexuals CAN reproduce and suddenly the extinction risk becomes zero.

If at some point the human race obtained means to reproduce between any two human of any gender, that would extend Human Survival far better than the old fashioned restriction of a male/female pairing.

Think outside the box.

EDIT: In fewer words: The main complaint is that Homosexuality inhibit breeding. Hence because they don't breed, they can't pose a threat. But if science finds a way, they are STILL not a threat as then the original complaint becomes invalid.
Okay...your entire post is just agreeing with what I said about homosexuality being "unnatural", which of course implies that most of the population will not develop homosexual preferences. I was obviously speaking in hypotheticals when I was pointing out what would happen if half of the population became homosexual. My point was that, on a large scale, homosexuality is bad for survival. But, that's not exclusively what I meant. I was trying to point towards the fact that homosexuality, being bad for survival and unnatural, goes against fate, just like loving your sister.

Talking in terms of "what if science found a way" is a bit superfluous since there has been absolutely nothing to suggest that's even being considered here yet. By "nothing" I mean I see no symbolism or dialogue that points towards making "unnatural things natural" as being a theme of the story. Indeed, it directly contradicts what has been presented so far, which appears to be a debate between the natural and unnatural. To turn something unnatural into something natural would completely defeat the purpose. Bottom line is that homosexuality does not allow for reproduction and is thus bad for survival; if not on a large scale then on a personal scale because your own genes won't be passed on. Just saying they can be sanctioned off won't end the debate, although I agree that it's impossible for them to realistically harm society because it is, again, unnatural and goes against basic human programming in the first place. Which is why they would represent the opposing force to "fate", along with other unnatural things.

...lol, I can't believe this anime is leading to this level of discussion...Ikuhara is a pro troll. Now, where do Penguins fit in all this?

EDIT: Okay, after thinking about it a bit, I can see how Ringo loving the teacher can be seen as bending "natural things into the unnatural", so you can take that as some indication of turning natural things unnatural as a theme of the story, but I've seen no evidence for the vice versa yet. In some ways it also contradicts Ringo's belief in fate, as her loving an older man is unnatural. This might be saying that fate is not certain and even those who want to believe in it can end up deviating from it...but then Ringo is supposed to represent the idea of fate itself, so for her to contradict it is just...ughh IKUHARA.
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Last edited by Suzuku; 2011-07-15 at 10:51.
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Old 2011-07-15, 10:53   Link #428
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My first gut reaction when I saw that the mascots were called Double-H was associating them with the Double Helix. Especially because in lingerie shop the lingerie (gateway to the cosmos!!!) racks are shaped like DNA strands.

I still have way too many thoughts I still need to organize and I don't feel like adding to the homosexuality debate as I've already said my piece. That being said, I think a couple people here and there have asked why "shoujo?" I've been asking this myself as Ikuhara seems to obviously have an attachment to the genre to the point that, besides Schell Bullet, all his other works are very, very shoujo.

My thinking is that, compared to the shounen genre conventions, shoujo is aesthetically more removed from reality and borrows more from/mirrors literature more in this regard. It follows fluid emotional intensity rather than plot-dictated intensity. Like the shoujo bubbles in the background, the frames, spinning roses, sparkles, and whatnot--they are built and intricately tied to the foundation of shoujo. While, yes, shounen occasionally uses these things too, I'd argue they're used less as a foundation and like more of an occasional frame--it's used more as a strong emphasis rather than a simple conveyance of emotion. This is also probably why shoujo techniques like the background transitioning mid-scene are jarring in shounen ( and which is why they're used often to emphasize punchlines in jokes).

If this is the case, this means that the usage of symbols and being able to visually point them out as one does in literature is more easily conveyed through the visual lineage of shoujo. So like when say, Penguindrum, translates literary techniques such as metaphor visually (example being using transformation sequence is a metaphor for the process of evolution), it can do this without breaking its narrative verisimilitude. Even more, the audience is trained to anticipate them as well.

I think a good example of this divide is between Evangelion and Utena. Both are considered classics and are overwrought with hidden meaning, but in Evangelion case, it's symbols aren't flaunted in the same way Utena gleefully does. The most Eva can do is allude its references, either in dialogue, naming things, or in recreating a scene. Utena can do all these things, but added onto it, it can also present objects in and of themselves.

That being said, I think this is also why Ikuhara pairs up with a shoujo artist when he works. Even though he started out with the intention of writing Penguindrum's scripts himself, he realizes soon after that he needed help (as mentioned in one of his blog entries). Even though his own sensibilities lean more towards shoujo, Ikuhara doesn't think he has the necessary touch that a female artist has. And like, I think works out really really well for the end product. It has a much more balance feel to it.
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Old 2011-07-15, 11:23   Link #429
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cant help laughing when roses and wind appear around Kan, while Sho has nothing

i think nobody could guess what Ringo was trying to do until finally seeing it, thats quite brilliant

so much more can be explored in this series and i expect more surprises

go penguins!
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Old 2011-07-15, 11:28   Link #430
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
EDIT: Okay, after thinking about it a bit, I can see how Ringo loving the teacher can be seen as bending "natural things into the unnatural", so you can take that as some indication of turning natural things unnatural as a theme of the story, but I've seen no evidence for the vice versa yet. In some ways it also contradicts Ringo's belief in fate, as her loving an older man is unnatural. This might be saying that fate is not certain and even those who want to believe in it can end up deviating from it...but then Ringo is supposed to represent the idea of fate itself, so for her to contradict it is just...ughh IKUHARA.
As far as Natural vs Unnatural... My personal views get tangled in this a lot, as I personally view the very definition of "Natural" as a giant lie constructed by humans to fool ourselves.

"Natural" as a word in the modern day is just a marketing term to sell products. Nothing more or less. It doesn't even hold any meaning that people think it has.

If the Survival Strategy doesn't even care about rape or murder, why should it care about what is or isn't natural? What Natural means in modern usage is a (ironically) artificially created separation made between what is created by humans and what is created by everything else. This separation doesn't actually exist; it is just made up by human society to make people feel better.

To draw a conclusion, is there really anything unnatural about stalking? You have love, you have lust, and you have the desire to get what you want via any means necessary. How is stalking someone you love unnatural? It is illegal, yes, and dangerous. But it is a perfectly predictable set of behaviours that a human might do. All the more proof that "Natural" as a term has been twisted; you tried to describe an illegal behaviour as if it shouldn't exist, when it has all the right to be present.

p.s. I hope I am not presenting myself in a way as to be trying to argue with you. This is just how I have my casual discussions.
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Old 2011-07-15, 11:30   Link #431
Guardian Enzo
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I'm not going to wade into this discussion, which I think is treading very close to the line of of being inappropriate for the thread. But I just want to note that anyone who thinks Ikuhara is going to make some kind of anti-homosexuality diatribe the main theme of a series clearly has never seen an Ikuhara anime.
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Old 2011-07-15, 11:42   Link #432
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'm not going to wade into this discussion, which I think is treading very close to the line of of being inappropriate for the thread. But I just want to note that anyone who thinks Ikuhara is going to make some kind of anti-homosexuality diatribe the main theme of a series clearly has never seen an Ikuhara anime.
Well, yeah. Ikuhara certainly isn't judgemental.

Still, Stalking, like most other kinds of illegal activity, have basis in primal instincts. To take what isn't mine, to hurt other people, to trick others, to profit at all costs... these are all instincts that are present without needing human society to encourage. If they weren't instinctive, we wouldn't have such a hard time stamping them out using rule of law.
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:01   Link #433
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Will take the time to read through the thread in a bit. First I wanted to through some impressions out there.

I thought the first episode was absolutely amazing, until the trashy stripwalking scene. This negative feeling was amplified by the equalling off-putting ED. I enjoy fanservice, but that is generally of the absurd or lighthearted kind--the gratuity employed in the ED for example just made me feel dirty.

I'm still not huge on the sexual themes by the second episode, but at least my repulsion has died down a little. Well, maybe actually having lyrics for the ED this time helped to take my focus away from the images. Incidentally, the OP this time gave me fucking goosebumps--so I am still pretty in love with this show overall.

As far as the themes: I see a whole lot of speculation is going on about the meaning of 'survival strategy'. I dunno if this has bring brought up before (hell, it probably has, but whatever) but my own thoughts are that that idea is also connected to the theme of the penguins. Moreso than the straight reproductive aspect of it, 'survival' with the context of penguins attached to it suggests a more global factor such as loss of habitat or global warming. I suspect some biological trivia about the reproductive habits of penguins may be thrown in at some point in the show (lol). Anyway, they've certainly got something intriguing here.

Incidentally, I never did finish Utena. I think I stalled at some point around episode 34 or 33. It's only been two episodes, but even with the more modern production and animation quality, I gotta say I can really see where these two works came from the same creator. The incest in Utena created a sortof unbearable atmosphere for me, so I'm not sure how well I'll respond to it in this series. Ikuhara's work has certainly got an very intriguing artistic sense however so I'm very genuinely excited to see more of this series.
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:25   Link #434
wandering-dreamer
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I laughed my ass off at that lingerie store for some reason, I think it was the combination of how absurd the whole situation was with the obviously CGI underwear models spinning around and the infinite amount of underwear in the sore (seriously, that was enough underwear to stock two or three stores easily!). And I'm hoping to find more people posting screenshots from the episode, my computer stopped when I was watching this episode and right before I got the stream working again I realized that one of the stores had a penguin design (from the OP) on it and I think there was one on Ringo's cellphone and in her diary at the end as well. It definitely feels like Utena in that respect, what's going on in the background is just as interesting as the main plot.
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:45   Link #435
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
When we saw Kanba like this:
I cheered out loud. While Utena was far from the first show to frame bishounen with flowers, I think that Ikuhara owns the trademark on that.
You're not the only one that cheered . Ikuhara sure does love his flower frames, so it was a nice return to see them again. We've been getting a lot of early Utena camera work since the first episode, so it's only right that he starts to use some of his other trademarks.

I really love the overall silly factor of this episode, because we know from past Utena and Sailor Moon episodes that Ikuhara and do good silly. He can always do good serious, which was hinted at a little bit with stalker-chan at the end of the episode.

I really like the hints of Kanba remembering about what happened to him at the end of last weeks episode. That'll play a part in the story soon i'm sure, though i wouldn't be surprised if we had a few more silly episodes before that happened.

Noticed that the fabulous blonde haired female (Noto Mamiko is voicing her) from the OP appeared in the magazine Himari was looking at. I hope it's not long before she appears. Along with the super awesome fabulous pink haired guy.

& let's not forget, Ishida Akira . Penguindrum needs him!
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:57   Link #436
Kanon
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Along with the super awesome fabulous pink haired guy.
Wait, that's a guy!? Did Utena become a full-fledged prince?
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Old 2011-07-15, 13:32   Link #437
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Seconding Kanon, I thought that the Utena look a like was a girl too!

Spoiler for Also, Penguindrum so far:
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Old 2011-07-15, 13:44   Link #438
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My favorite scene in episode two

Spoiler for large image:



Anyways I love how the penguins seem to have the personality of their "owners". No. 2 is my favorite, actually he is probably my favorite character overall so far.
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Old 2011-07-15, 13:55   Link #439
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I thought the fact that the underwear display was a double-helix was a nice subtle yet obvious touch...
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Old 2011-07-15, 14:13   Link #440
Ziziphus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
My favorite scene in episode two

Spoiler for large image:



Anyways I love how the penguins seem to have the personality of their "owners". No. 2 is my favorite, actually he is probably my favorite character overall so far.
Haha, no.2 is my favorite as well. I'm definitely getting an avy of him spraying the cockroach when I have the chance (actually, anyone so kind as making one for me, I'll be soo grateful for you!).

Here's my favorite scene from this ep:
Spoiler for pic:


Quote:
Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
I realized that one of the stores had a penguin design (from the OP) on it and I think there was one on Ringo's cellphone and in her diary at the end as well. It definitely feels like Utena in that respect, what's going on in the background is just as interesting as the main plot.
The store in question (it's in Ikebukuro I think):
Spoiler for pic:

There's also one store in Ogikubo with a penguin image:
Spoiler for pic:
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