AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-07-15, 13:30   Link #23201
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler talks in ep6 and ep8 about intentionally taking crazy risks. Kinzo is said in just about every damn episode to be a man who took crazy risks and won. It is occasionally revealed that Kinzo had more on his side than luck when he took his risks, and knew what he was doing. Battler is constantly compared to Kinzo. Do the math.
I thought this was one of the most important points that goes towards the Genius Battler theory.

Also, didn't Lambdadelta also anticipate this turn of events? I know she did for EP5, but what about EP6?
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 13:55   Link #23202
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
A secondary theory for some people is that Lambda's been on Battler's side from some point prior to his ascension and then has more or less been allied with him ever since. There's basically no textual support for this though, other than her apparent ability to not be surprised when Bern gets shown up time and again. But given that it's Lambdadelta, when isn't she happy to see Bern get shown up, or not expecting to beat her?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 14:24   Link #23203
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Apparently Ryukishi's official stance is that Yasu has split personalities, and are thus people.
Has he really confirmed it as DID?
May I request some link or quote that may allow me to read his statements.
To be honest, his whole "you'd have to be (or have been) a girl in love to understand Yasu's motives" felt rather silly.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 14:25   Link #23204
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
To be honest, his whole "you'd have to be (or have been) a girl in love to understand Yasu's motives" felt rather silly.
Ryukishi himself has probably never been a girl in love either.

Or has he...
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 14:30   Link #23205
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
It's probably his alter ego, Ryūgu Reina.

Maybe I should start doing the same. I'd probably finally be able to get a girlfriend that way.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 14:38   Link #23206
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
All I can tell you for certain is that if I ever were a girl in love (this is unlikely), I'd probably prioritize "make a telephone call" and "take a few days off and get a train ticket" over "theatrically mass-murder his entire family."

Ah, a maiden's heart.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 14:51   Link #23207
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Has he really confirmed it as DID?
May I request some link or quote that may allow me to read his statements.
Pretty much, yea. I forgot where the link is. It's either in this thread farther back or in the Translation thread.

Personally I think this is one instance where we can ignore Word of God because DID is retarded. It's probably my fault he went for it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 15:06   Link #23208
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
All I can tell you for certain is that if I ever were a girl in love (this is unlikely), I'd probably prioritize "make a telephone call" and "take a few days off and get a train ticket" over "theatrically mass-murder his entire family."
You say you love him, yet you wouldn't eat his po... I mean, kill his family?
How shallow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Pretty much, yea. I forgot where the link is. It's either in this thread farther back or in the Translation thread.

Personally I think this is one instance where we can ignore Word of God because DID is retarded. It's probably my fault he went for it.
I see, thanks. I'll try looking for it myself.
Seriously, and here I was thinking it was some mix between the fiction theory and Yasu simply playing roles, because... well, that'd also require some mental illness, but I think that'd be easier to bypass than DID.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 15:53   Link #23209
Alcindor
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The darkest place on earth underneath a girl 's skirt
Age: 21
don't know if this is a repost but this link is very important discussion with Ryukishi07 himself ,every one who read ep 8 or partly should read it http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/
Alcindor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 16:19   Link #23210
cronnoponno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
A secondary theory for some people is that Lambda's been on Battler's side from some point prior to his ascension and then has more or less been allied with him ever since. There's basically no textual support for this though, other than her apparent ability to not be surprised when Bern gets shown up time and again. But given that it's Lambdadelta, when isn't she happy to see Bern get shown up, or not expecting to beat her?
I'm rereading EP's 1-4 for a bit to make sure I'm not forgetting anything, but I remember there is the scene when Beatrice denies Battler's family name as a Ushiromiya, as he starts to black out, Battler observes Lambdadelta running up to him and shouting something as if she was worried, or that at least she couldn't afford to have him die....or something....

Maybe this was the clue that Lambda was on Battler's side the whole time? I forgot if she did it for another reason.


For that matter, a question I have is why everyone knows about the red. Beatrice basically said it's a rule she created, but everyone in the story uses red as if they've have years of professional experience using it in other games. Like, Bernkastel, no there's an even better example. Dlanor and her gang in general, the red key, not only did she use red, she used it without Beatrice knowing she could, but she invented the red right?

Are ALL of these characters, including Bern and Lamb, just some creation of her? Bern and Lamb are two people, just like Shannon and Kannon are two people, with Beatrice being the third, confusing.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-15 at 16:34.
cronnoponno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 17:28   Link #23211
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
That would indeed be the link, Alcindor. Thank you very much.

Quote:
I'm rereading EP's 1-4 for a bit to make sure I'm not forgetting anything, but I remember there is the scene when Beatrice denies Battler's family name as a Ushiromiya, as he starts to black out, Battler observes Lambdadelta running up to him and shouting something as if she was worried, or that at least she couldn't afford to have him die....or something....
Are you talking about the "Battler isn't born from Ushiromiya Asumu" thing? Well, part of that is that Lambdadelta is using Rokkenjima's mystery as a means to trap Bernkastel forever, which is why she's rooting for an infinite tie.

Quote:
For that matter, a question I have is why everyone knows about the red. Beatrice basically said it's a rule she created, but everyone in the story uses red as if they've have years of professional experience using it in other games. Like, Bernkastel, no there's an even better example. Dlanor and her gang in general, the red key, not only did she use red, she used it without Beatrice knowing she could, but she invented the red right?

Are ALL of these characters, including Bern and Lamb, just some creation of her? Bern and Lamb are two people, just like Shannon and Kannon are two people, with Beatrice being the third, confusing.
You know, you think by now you'd of come to the easiest conclusion: Time doesn't work in a straight line in the Meta-World.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 17:50   Link #23212
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
All I can tell you for certain is that if I ever were a girl in love (this is unlikely), I'd probably prioritize "make a telephone call" and "take a few days off and get a train ticket" over "theatrically mass-murder his entire family."

Ah, a maiden's heart.
Its obvious whats wrong with you Renall, you just dont have any "Love"
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 18:40   Link #23213
cronnoponno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That would indeed be the link, Alcindor. Thank you very much.



Are you talking about the "Battler isn't born from Ushiromiya Asumu" thing? Well, part of that is that Lambdadelta is using Rokkenjima's mystery as a means to trap Bernkastel forever, which is why she's rooting for an infinite tie.
Then why did she accept Battler's death in EP 5 and tell Bernkastel she'll find her again? She seems to be completely indifferent in EP 5 when Battler loses, and they agree to go their own ways for awhile, almost as if they've done it a million times, so why would she run to shout something to Battler that would obviously be beneficial(or at least show Lambda wants him alive) to hear? Lambdadelta had no reason to keep Battler alive, even if it meant keeping Bernkastel in the bird-cage, she's perfectly happy with it ending in one or the others defeat. If it was as such, Lambdadelta could have easily killed off Battler and replaced him with a more competent protagonist like Erika, although Virgilllia said Lambda wouldn't have been able to come if she was not invited, she should surely hold power over Beato.

It's almost as if Lambdadelta wants Battler to become stronger and learn the truth himself, if she really wanted to aid the human side, did she really have to go out of her way to make Ange do it? There were other ways to help Battler ''win'', what Ange's basic role was in that situation was to restore Battler's purpose, didn't Bernkastel's master lose her purpose, and thus create a logic error that trapped Bernkastel ''forever''? When it came to Beatrice, all she had to do to get her to continue the game is kill her off and take control herself, there was almost literally no possible way Battler's existence would have hindered her ability to keep Bernkastel in this game in the slightest. There seems to be a stronger connection between this than Lambdadelta just trying to keep things going on endlessly, and even if that was the case, I highly doubt she'd get so overly emotional that she'd run up to Battler and yell at him in desperation.


It just seems a little strange.
cronnoponno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 19:20   Link #23214
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Then why did she accept Battler's death in EP 5 and tell Bernkastel she'll find her again? She seems to be completely indifferent in EP 5 when Battler loses, and they agree to go their own ways for awhile, almost as if they've done it a million times, so why would she run to shout something to Battler that would obviously be beneficial(or at least show Lambda wants him alive) to hear? Lambdadelta had no reason to keep Battler alive, even if it meant keeping Bernkastel in the bird-cage, she's perfectly happy with it ending in one or the others defeat. If it was as such, Lambdadelta could have easily killed off Battler and replaced him with a more competent protagonist like Erika, although Virgilllia said Lambda wouldn't have been able to come if she was not invited, she should surely hold power over Beato.
Both are good, but keeping the game going is better. Lambdadelta knows it's not over if the game ends; she can find Bern again. But being separated for tens of thousands of years or whatever still isn't convenient.

And killing Battler off isn't an option, because of Beatrice. If Beatrice doesn't fight Battler, she doesn't fight at all. And they could only pull off about half a game before Beatrice dies. She transferred Territory Lord status to Battler, but if that wasn't possible, the entire Gameboard would be lost, and they can't play with it anymore.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 22:23   Link #23215
FirstTwilight
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I still don't this it's DID.

When he talked about softwares i think R07 was just playing with words like he always does to not fully reveal the whole truth.
FirstTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 22:33   Link #23216
cronnoponno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
I still don't this it's DID.

When he talked about softwares i think R07 was just playing with words like he always does to not fully reveal the whole truth.
This sounds vaguely close to the approach I am currently trying, do you find logic in the theories I posted say 2 pages ago?
cronnoponno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-15, 23:01   Link #23217
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
He does consistently describe Shkanon as being like multiple people, with conflicting thoughts and desires. The intent is incredibly clear and it's certainly the most obvious interpretation.

That said, I don't think Yasu actually has DID. Ryukishi's demonstrated that he hasn't put as much thought in this series as we have.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-16, 07:33   Link #23218
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
He does consistently describe Shkanon as being like multiple people, with conflicting thoughts and desires. The intent is incredibly clear and it's certainly the most obvious interpretation.

That said, I don't think Yasu actually has DID. Ryukishi's demonstrated that he hasn't put as much thought in this series as we have.
I still wouldn't say that he did not put much thought in it...I'd rather say that his construction of identity and personality are a little different from what most people would say.

Considering the software metaphor, I would say he meant it in a way that all "personalities" are just software who keep the "mainframe" Yasu running. But it does not mean that it's only explanation is actuall DID.
Yasu said that he gave everything up to fate (her roulette) so every decision would be better described by her being totally unable to decide and only being lead by chance and momentary emotions rather than her not having power over her thoughts.
It's not like she did not have any power over the decisions of let's say Kanon or Beatrice...she just did not try to execute any control over her emotions anymore.

Even if she did some costumeplay on the island it's not said that the same amount of personality switching that is implied in her and Tôya's stories is actually necessary in reality.
It's not like she actually stood in Jessica's room during EP2 and fought with herself over wether to kill Jessica or not. I'd rather say it was an inner struggle wether to follow the plan of the roulette or her heart.

DID would imply that she could actually be perceived changing into different characters by outside people...but if she did anything I'd say she changed her manner of appearance based on which role she was playing right now.

People always take on roles to enable themselves to play out certain parts...the way Umineko is written only takes the visualization to a new level.
But such a role can actually become a fullblown person if enough people interact with it...but only because somebody might be two different people, for example at his job and at home, that does not make it DID.

I think DID is just a handy excuse to explain Yasu's inability to take some action...the only way of not feeling the need to just grab her and shake her for following a script she had written herself only because she wanted to believe in destiny so much.

But yeah...Ryűkishi loves his antisocial nutjobs...
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-16, 08:12   Link #23219
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That said, I don't think Yasu actually has DID. Ryukishi's demonstrated that he hasn't put as much thought in this series as we have.
Or, maybe, you just got it wrong and is why you have such a conclusion.

Shannon and Kanon are something closer to the "little angel" and "little demon" of our consciousness cliche then alternate personalities or different people.
However within the fiction of Umineko's message bottles/scripts, Yasu portrayed them as different people fully. It's really an author's thing to "portray themselves through multiple characters and not just a single one" so it's nothing strange either.

In the "real world" they are nothing but inner feelings and thoughts, mixed, of Yasu. In the world of fiction these take definitive forms. Yasu being "behind both" should be seen closer to playing roles in a play.

Course this is just another theory/vision on things.

You don't need to look down on Ryuukishi as we are not told enough really clearly to even be certain of ... much/anything. So unless this is what you're looking down on him from, whatever other reasons is something we ourselves decide he did/didn't do.

However there's things like his WW2 submarine knowledge that makes me certain Ryuukishi makes sure to know what he's talking about before talking about something.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-16, 12:22   Link #23220
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcindor View Post
don't know if this is a repost but this link is very important discussion with Ryukishi07 himself ,every one who read ep 8 or partly should read it http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/
That was a great read. Thanks for posting.

Theory : It should be impossible to verify Kanon's existence in R=Prime. It would just take people from Fukuin going "Yeah there was that quiet Yasu girl, but we didn't have any kid like this Yoshiya/Kanon." All the other safety deposit boxes Nanjo Jr. saw was Yasu, before the incident, literally paying off every person she knew from Fukuin to maintain silence on the matter.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.