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Old 2011-07-16, 12:59   Link #23221
cronnoponno
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Ep 7 confused me a lot on that matter, not too much, just confused me of the direct order of things.


Yasu is real, Shannon is fake, who is Yasu's ideal>

Yasu lets scary stories of witches get to her head, imagines a new Beatrice and blames her failures on her>

Kumasawa doesn't really believe this is true, but being the adult she is offers her advice which wouldn't crush her dreams(attaching strings to her keys)>

Yasu starts enjoying the idea of being a witch, because lets face it, being a servant sucks>

Yasu pulls the keychain prank on Berune(I think that was it, their names confuse me so much)>

Yasu thinks witches kick ass>

Yasu abandons herself, and leaves Shannon, basically making Shannon the dominant personality(or whatever term you want me to use), which is why she in turn doesn't really add up to what Yasu once thought she was>

Shannon interacts with Battler, while ''Yasu-Beatrice'' stays up at night to pull massive pranks to affirm her existence>

Battler, for some reason, does not mail her back>

She gets crushed and then leaves her emotions to Beatrice, while Beatrice in turn creates the personality of Kanon to make up for her loneliness>

Beatrice is born>

Battler comes back after she gets over her fixation on Beatrice>

Old memories are awakened in whatever way, and Yasu can no longer control her emotions and starts the epitaph, or whatever actually happened on R-Prime.


Everything here is correct right?
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Old 2011-07-16, 14:11   Link #23222
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Alcindor View Post
don't know if this is a repost but this link is very important discussion with Ryukishi07 himself ,every one who read ep 8 or partly should read it http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/
Yeah, this is it. Danke.

Anyway, as for the software thing... well... in that same paragraph, he said: "Even though the clothes belong to Shannon, if what’s within is another being then that person would surely be able to kill George. Clothes are not a personality. And so, even though the cloths and the hairdo might be Shannon’s, but there is the possibility that it was another person, when she started asking questions about George."

That screams DID to me.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Yasu is real, Shannon is fake, who is Yasu's ideal>
Super Shannon is a creation of Yasu's imagination, but Yasu's servant name may indeed be Shannon.
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Last edited by Used Can; 2011-07-16 at 14:27.
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Old 2011-07-16, 14:12   Link #23223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Beatrice is born>

Battler comes back after she gets over her fixation on Beatrice>

Old memories are awakened in whatever way, and Yasu can no longer control her emotions and starts the epitaph, or whatever actually happened on R-Prime.


Everything here is correct right?
I would change that final part a little:

Yasu-Shannon starts to forget Battler and begins falling for George -> gains a new motivation in life

The complete Beatrice (endless witch + golden witch + lineage of Beatrice's) is born when Yasu finds the gold

Yasu becomes the heir to the headship but refuses to take that place as she prefers to lead her life different from what she witnessed in the family

Wants to run away with anybody she likes (trial of love) but is too scared to take that chance herself because of her damaged body (creates the concept of the devil's roulette)

Holds some grudges against those who made her lead the life she had so far

Beatrice (as a person) becomes basically obsolete as she has equal power in all her areas of life (this is basically the scene in front of the portrait in EP2 where Shannon receives the broach)

Yasu-Shannon tests the bomb to know if she has sufficient power to free herself (be with anybody she likes)

Her initial plans are destroyed when she learns of Battler returning to the island, because she does not know what's right and wrong anymore


That's at least how I interpreted the different pieces of information we got during the final portions of EP7.
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Old 2011-07-16, 21:43   Link #23224
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The complete Beatrice (endless witch + golden witch + lineage of Beatrice's) is born when Yasu finds the gold
I'd say the "complete Beatrice" isn't born until Yasu finds out about the problem with her body. Bitterness and sadness are also part of Beatrice's character.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Holds some grudges against those who made her lead the life she had so far
I think ever since EP5 onwards, the story has tried to show us that Yasu had no grudge toward anybody.
Mind you, her having a grudge makes more sense in my opinion. With the exception of a few people, Yasu had reasons to hate everybody in that family.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Beatrice (as a person) becomes basically obsolete as she has equal power in all her areas of life (this is basically the scene in front of the portrait in EP2 where Shannon receives the broach)
That's wrong. Beatrice never went away. Yasu/Beatrice found and solved the epitaph by the time Shannon was already in love with George.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Her initial plans are destroyed when she learns of Battler returning to the island
You know, this makes me think about Battler showing up. Battler's situation with his parents was, for all we know, exactly the same in Lion's world. However, he wasn't in the island during the conference of 1986 in that world. This makes me think Yasu may have had some involvement on him going back. I'd say he may have "somewhat" remembered about his promise, but then I remembered he seemed to have completely forgotten about it when Shannon mentioned it during EP3.
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Old 2011-07-16, 22:03   Link #23225
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Quote:
I think ever since EP5 onwards, the story has tried to show us that Yasu had no grudge toward anybody.
Mind you, her having a grudge makes more sense in my opinion. With the exception of a few people, Yasu had reasons to hate everybody in that family.
Indeed, and the fact that despite this, she cares about everyone and blames NO ONE BUT HERSELF is what makes her story worth knowing. It's because of this alone that we need to understand her, otherwise it's....well, any other story.
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Old 2011-07-17, 02:11   Link #23226
cronnoponno
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Whether or not Yasu held a grudge doesn't change how much I feel really bad for her in the story.

In fact I dare say I don't have a single problem with this series at all, no matter what the answer might be.
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Old 2011-07-17, 02:37   Link #23227
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
That was a great read. Thanks for posting.

Theory : It should be impossible to verify Kanon's existence in R=Prime. It would just take people from Fukuin going "Yeah there was that quiet Yasu girl, but we didn't have any kid like this Yoshiya/Kanon." All the other safety deposit boxes Nanjo Jr. saw was Yasu, before the incident, literally paying off every person she knew from Fukuin to maintain silence on the matter.
Well it would be pretty easy to disclaim Kanon's existence if Fukuin doesn't have any male orphans in it.

I mean... think about it.

Anyway my main objection to Actual DID is that it would be completely impossible to execute any plans whatsoever if one actually had a crippling mental illness, let alone function in a job or write a story in a couple days.

Not that I wouldn't love a forgery where the obvious consequences of this come to light:
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-07-17, 02:58   Link #23228
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The Gohda part was just laugh out loud.

I do like that point though, it makes sense.
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Old 2011-07-17, 03:38   Link #23229
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I love that, Renall. You always make my day.

Also someone needs to post that Shroedinger image. "PROOOBLEM JESSICA?"
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Old 2011-07-17, 03:42   Link #23230
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Shroedinger's penis, an endless possibility of genders.
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Old 2011-07-17, 06:02   Link #23231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I think ever since EP5 onwards, the story has tried to show us that Yasu had no grudge toward anybody.
Mind you, her having a grudge makes more sense in my opinion. With the exception of a few people, Yasu had reasons to hate everybody in that family.
I'd say it's similar to all her other emotions as well. Of course she does not flat out hate the Ushiromiyas, because she knows they're not inherently bad people, but I think it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have some left over anger for at least most of them. It's similar to her love towards Battler and George, one emotion might have receded to being nothing more than an aftertaste but in the right moment, with the right trigger it might make her explode.

Quote:
That's wrong. Beatrice never went away. Yasu/Beatrice found and solved the epitaph by the time Shannon was already in love with George.
Just saw that I left what I wrote before...ah, I shouldn't post in the middle of the night anymore.
You're right, Beatrice never vanishes. But I'd say her importance is taken to another level when Yasu finds the gold, because through that her Shannon persona (and through that also Kanon) actually gains the power to do something.

And yes, the love for George has to precede the solving of the epitaph. Wasn't the time when she actually noticed her feeling for George sometime in 1983 (either at the spring or autumn meeting)? And solving the epitaph was in November 1984?
That at least explains why Beatrice made that pact with Shannon (as seen in EP2) where it says that if she's strong enough to release Beatrice's powers she would be able to fullfil her love. In the end it would boil down to Yasu subconsciously thinking: "With all this I have enough power to force that bitch Eva to submit!"

Quote:
You know, this makes me think about Battler showing up. Battler's situation with his parents was, for all we know, exactly the same in Lion's world. However, he wasn't in the island during the conference of 1986 in that world. This makes me think Yasu may have had some involvement on him going back. I'd say he may have "somewhat" remembered about his promise, but then I remembered he seemed to have completely forgotten about it when Shannon mentioned it during EP3.
I think it's linked to the Epitaph and the inheritance game and not directly to Yasu. In Lion's world the epitaph is only revealed at the conference and nobody even had a clue that there was any doubt over Lion inheriting the family fortune (even though everybody was against it). That means that there was no reason to be especially careful or careless in 1986.
The whole scheme of plotting against Krauss, the idea that Kinz˘ was long dead, the individual plans of the parents to make a fortune and their individual perspective of cutting their ties with the rest of the family had no chance to surface that extremely in Lion's world.

And apart from that it was a plot device serving as a metaphor...
But yes, I also doubt the real reason why Battler was taken to Rokkenjima that year and why exactly Ange wasn't. These are those small instances which make me doubt Kyrie a little more than anybody else...especially considering how "mentally stable as a rock" her sister is.
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Old 2011-07-17, 08:34   Link #23232
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'd say it's similar to all her other emotions as well. Of course she does not flat out hate the Ushiromiyas, because she knows they're not inherently bad people, but I think it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have some left over anger for at least most of them. It's similar to her love towards Battler and George, one emotion might have receded to being nothing more than an aftertaste but in the right moment, with the right trigger it might make her explode.
Maybe, but my point is her motivation was never revenge. That was even said in Red by Virgilia in EP5. Her motivation was purely her roulette, the love trial.

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You're right, Beatrice never vanishes. But I'd say her importance is taken to another level when Yasu finds the gold, because through that her Shannon persona (and through that also Kanon) actually gains the power to do something.
I wouldn't know, really. I don't think Shannon and Kanon were able to do more after Yasu/Beatrice found the gold. Yasu still played those two strictly as servants - well, assuming she was role-playing and not DID.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And yes, the love for George has to precede the solving of the epitaph. Wasn't the time when she actually noticed her feeling for George sometime in 1983 (either at the spring or autumn meeting)? And solving the epitaph was in November 1984?
That at least explains why Beatrice made that pact with Shannon (as seen in EP2) where it says that if she's strong enough to release Beatrice's powers she would be able to fullfil her love. In the end it would boil down to Yasu subconsciously thinking: "With all this I have enough power to force that bitch Eva to submit!"
Yes, Shannon was already in love with George back then. In fact, it was event brought up in the scene in which Genji tells them Kinzo's hometown is Taiwan.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think it's linked to the Epitaph and the inheritance game and not directly to Yasu. In Lion's world the epitaph is only revealed at the conference and nobody even had a clue that there was any doubt over Lion inheriting the family fortune (even though everybody was against it). That means that there was no reason to be especially careful or careless in 1986.
The whole scheme of plotting against Krauss, the idea that Kinz˘ was long dead, the individual plans of the parents to make a fortune and their individual perspective of cutting their ties with the rest of the family had no chance to surface that extremely in Lion's world.
The problem about the Epitaph is that in none of the games the parents were shown to take it particularly seriously - with the exception of Eva in EP3, and the scene in EP7. Moreover, the problem here is not the conference of 1986 but what precedes it. Whilst they probably took a chance at the Epitaph, their main goal was to get money from Krauss. Their plans revolved around that idea. They didn't really care about the headship - of course, other than Eva.

In addition, I don't see how Battler would fit in the whole deal with the Epitaph. As long as Rudolph and Kyrie solve it, the inheritance belongs to them. And if they also want to keep the headship and pass it, then there was Ange.

Mind you, I think it's likely that in EP1 and EP2 the Epitaph got solved before the 1st Twilight, in a similar fashion to what we saw in EP7. That'd help the idea of proxy murders and how Yasu was able to kill 6 people so easily. It'd also work with the scene in EP2 when all the parents meet Beatrice and "acknowledge" her. Then we have "Kinzo" in EPs 3-4. So, it's possible someone else solved the Epitaph in those episodes. Of course, we've also got our fair share of accomplices, like Hideyoshi in EP1, Rosa - quite likely - in EP2 and the possibility of Kyrie and Krauss in EP3. Of course, all of these are just fictional stories. So, whilst they may have huge hints to what could have happened in Rokkenjima Prime, the events in them are not necessarily real, and even probably very far from what actually ended up happening. That's how Yasu is easily the master planner and murderer in the fictions, but in R. Prime, while she may still have planned the whole setting, things may have gone out of her control (probably even before the conference itself) and then we have the possibility of how we saw things happen in EP7's Tea Party with Rudolph and Kyrie becoming the main murderers - which probably has a lot of true to it, considering Ange's reaction after reading Eva's diary (especially if you go through the "Trick" ending).

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And apart from that it was a plot device serving as a metaphor...
But yes, I also doubt the real reason why Battler was taken to Rokkenjima that year and why exactly Ange wasn't. These are those small instances which make me doubt Kyrie a little more than anybody else...especially considering how "mentally stable as a rock" her sister is.
This makes me think of another scene. We know that EPs 1-2 were written before the conference of 1986, but in EP1 we already saw the scene in which Rudolph had something to say to Battler - which is very likely his real parentage. It makes me wonder how Yasu got to know that. I'm sure the only one who knew about that was Rudolph, yet Yasu wrote that scene in the very first story.
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Old 2011-07-17, 15:48   Link #23233
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Another few questions. Why does Beatrices form in EP 7 look different from how we usually see her? I thought that was Claire's form? As for Battler, was what he learned about Beatrice at the end of EP 5 similar to what Bern told Ange in Ep 8 about finding the truth?
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Old 2011-07-17, 16:30   Link #23234
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Another few questions. Why does Beatrices form in EP 7 look different from how we usually see her? I thought that was Claire's form? As for Battler, was what he learned about Beatrice at the end of EP 5 similar to what Bern told Ange in Ep 8 about finding the truth?
I think Claire's form is what Beatrice used to look like before Battler put his Fantasy in her head. Because when Will Theatre'd Jessica, I could have sworn she saw, or thought she saw someone in a white outfit.
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Old 2011-07-17, 17:25   Link #23235
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Clair is basically how Yasu imagined Beatrice originally, since there was no hints to what the human Beatrice looked like at the time. Later, however, there was the portrait, plus Battler saying he liked blonde babes..

As for what Battler learned at EP5, he learned EVERYTHING. The entire Truth.
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Old 2011-07-17, 17:29   Link #23236
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Clair is basically how Yasu imagined Beatrice originally, since there was no hints to what the human Beatrice looked like at the time. Later, however, there was the portrait, plus Battler saying he liked blonde babes..

As for what Battler learned at EP5, he learned EVERYTHING. The entire Truth.
But didn't Jessica see someone in a white robe laugh and run out of the VIP room?
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Old 2011-07-17, 19:03   Link #23237
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Jessica didn't see anyone, actually. You're thinking of servants who saw a "white ghost" in the VIP Room window.
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Old 2011-07-17, 21:16   Link #23238
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

And apart from that it was a plot device serving as a metaphor...
But yes, I also doubt the real reason why Battler was taken to Rokkenjima that year and why exactly Ange wasn't. These are those small instances which make me doubt Kyrie a little more than anybody else...especially considering how "mentally stable as a rock" her sister is.
What's to doubt?
I thought the general idea was that Battler probably remembered his promise in R-Prime, which is why he didn't return in Lion's world, what with the promise not existing there. It doesn't make sense to think that Yasu MADE Rudolf get Battler to return, because Clair says pretty openly that it was pure bad luck that Battler happened to return in 1986, which turned what would've been a small incident into a 2km crater of an incident.

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This makes me think of another scene. We know that EPs 1-2 were written before the conference of 1986, but in EP1 we already saw the scene in which Rudolph had something to say to Battler - which is very likely his real parentage. It makes me wonder how Yasu got to know that. I'm sure the only one who knew about that was Rudolph, yet Yasu wrote that scene in the very first story.
Yeah, this one throws me for a loop, too. I can only fathom, MAYBE, that a tipsy Rudolf confided in either Krauss or Hideyoshi during a conference and Yasu overheard.

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Jessica didn't see anyone, actually. You're thinking of servants who saw a "white ghost" in the VIP Room window.
Yup, Jessica didn't see anything besides the missing doll afterwards. She probably would've been wearing her white getup, though, anyways.
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Old 2011-07-17, 23:27   Link #23239
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On the Battler coming to the island thing, considering that it was probably Rudolf and Kyrie who asked him to come, it was probably something inheritance-related, nullified by Lion being the heir. Or perhaps they're in on Yasu's game thing, again negated by Lion. Battler himself doesn't have to experience any internal change.
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Old 2011-07-17, 23:29   Link #23240
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Why would someone who left the family be important to the inheritance? If anything, Kinzo would be PISSED to see him come back(if Kinzo is how he is portrayed.) Unless they like, knew about Yasu and how she liked Battler and thought they could use him.

I think Rudolph wanted him back out of pure emotional feelings, nothing financial.
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