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Old 2011-07-18, 00:39   Link #23241
AuraTwilight
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Ange's sick, so they need some kid there. They're not going to get very much leeway if they don't have a child to put stakes on (EP4 scenario, for example).
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Old 2011-07-18, 00:56   Link #23242
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ange's sick, so they need some kid there. They're not going to get very much leeway if they don't have a child to put stakes on (EP4 scenario, for example).
I ... don't follow.
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Old 2011-07-18, 00:57   Link #23243
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That does sound possible, but I don't know, I'm not quite sold....
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:10   Link #23244
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I ... don't follow.
"We want money."

"What's the point? Ange's too young and your other kid ran out. No money for you says GOOOLDSMITH."

"Fuck."

~

"We want money."

"Only if your kid is the next Head. What's this? You didn't bring one? Ooooh, too baaad."

"Fuck."

~

"We want money."

"Only if your kid is marrying a servant!"

"Fuck."

~

And so on and so forth.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:20   Link #23245
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That can only be possible if they were planning on getting Kinzo's full blown inheritance right then and there, while it is true Kinzo's health was suspicious and they knew he'd die soon, I'm pretty sure they only came to that family conference with the intention of threatening Krauss, Battler should play no part in this and it would actually be a little more limiting on them if he was there(well, not really, he'd just be a nuisance like the rest of the cousin's at that time).


No relative actually had to balls to boldly think they were able to get the inheritance that day, if they were really etching to get the inheritance that bad, they'd have made Ange go whether she was sick or not.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:22   Link #23246
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ange's sick, so they need some kid there. They're not going to get very much leeway if they don't have a child to put stakes on (EP4 scenario, for example).
Ange got sick on really short notice because of stress, so it's not like that's something they could predict far in advance. Rudolf apologized to Battler at his grandparents' funeral, which way before the family conference.

On an unrelated note... I'm just toying with a possibility here, but was there anything in the wording of Claire's story in EP7 that definitively established that Yasu was a working as a maid and not, say, a butler? If I were Genji, and I had an ambiguously-gendered child who I was worried would be assaulted by an old man, I'd seriously consider raising that child as a boy.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:24   Link #23247
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ange got sick on really short notice because of stress, so it's not like that's something they could predict far in advance. Rudolf apologized to Battler at his grandparents' funeral, which way before the family conference.

On an unrelated note... I'm just toying with a possibility here, but was there anything in the wording of Claire's story in EP7 that definitively established that Yasu was a working as a maid and not, say, a butler? If I were Genji, and I had an ambiguously-gendered child who I was worried would be assaulted by an old man, I'd seriously consider raising that child as a boy.
Twilight made a good point to me and told me that if Kinzo was as crazy as portrayed he'd have no problem dressing a boy up as Beatrice and raping him, despite how sexist he is.

The only possible wording that might even closely relate to the gender of Lion was Bernkastel saying something like ''I wonder if I search through the fragments I'll find a world where the tragedy repeats itself with Lion'', in reference to Kinzo impregnating his daughter. But it's still pretty shady because I'm sure there's room for it to be interpreted as simple sex and not impregnation.(trying to find the direct quote cause I'm sure I am leaving out a very important detail)
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:32   Link #23248
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Twilight made a good point to me and told me that if Kinzo was as crazy as portrayed he'd have no problem dressing a boy up as Beatrice and raping him, despite how sexist he is.
Where on Earth did you get something like that from Twilight? Half of Battler's scenario is about undermining Kinzo's portrayal as a madman.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:35   Link #23249
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Where on Earth did you get something like that from Twilight? Half of Battler's scenario is about undermining Kinzo's portrayal as a madman.
My bad, I meant AuraTwilight.

Oh and ignore Bernkastel's fragment comment, after re-reading it it is definitely not clear enough to reference pregnancy.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:41   Link #23250
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
On an unrelated note... I'm just toying with a possibility here, but was there anything in the wording of Claire's story in EP7 that definitively established that Yasu was a working as a maid and not, say, a butler? If I were Genji, and I had an ambiguously-gendered child who I was worried would be assaulted by an old man, I'd seriously consider raising that child as a boy.
Eh, well, if Yasu was working as a butler ... the reason Yasu had their own room would be very obvious, as all the Fukuin servants we see besides Kanon are girls. I cant think of a good way to word it, but it seems like it'd raise more questions than it would answer.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Twilight made a good point to me and told me that if Kinzo was as crazy as portrayed he'd have no problem dressing a boy up as Beatrice and raping him, despite how sexist he is.

The only possible wording that might even closely relate to the gender of Lion was Bernkastel saying something like ''I wonder if I search through the fragments I'll find a world where the tragedy repeats itself with Lion'', in reference to Kinzo impregnating his daughter. But it's still pretty shady because I'm sure there's room for it to be interpreted as simple sex and not impregnation.
I ... didn't even consider impregnation. I totally read that as Bern going straight for the "Your grandpa might get rapey on you" gambit.

Also, AuraTwilight, I still don't follow. Most of the adults seemed to honestly already suspect Kinzo was dead, or, if he wasn't, was so sick that Kratsuhi could lock him in the study to keep him from participating, anyway. I can't deny the possibility that Kyrie / Rudolf wanted a child there as part of some gambit, but I honestly have a hard time seeing what that gambit might've reasonably been.
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Old 2011-07-18, 01:45   Link #23251
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
My bad, I meant AuraTwilight.

Oh and ignore Bernkastel's fragment comment, after re-reading it it is definitely not clear enough to reference pregnancy.
Well, I'm not particularly interested in Yasu's real gender here. What I want to establish is this: are we really correct in thinking that Kanon was created from scratch when Yasu gave up on Battler? Or was Yasu effectively Kanon the whole time?
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Old 2011-07-18, 02:07   Link #23252
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, I'm not particularly interested in Yasu's real gender here. What I want to establish is this: are we really correct in thinking that Kanon was created from scratch when Yasu gave up on Battler? Or was Yasu effectively Kanon the whole time?
I believe that Yasu had the physical appearance of Kanon the whole time, not completely meaning he had a penis, but just that s/he at least looked like Kanon, but the arguments I gave had nothing to do with this. It's a good point, when I get the time I'll reread EP 7 again to see if her job is ever referenced.
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Old 2011-07-18, 02:07   Link #23253
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Eh, well, if Yasu was working as a butler ... the reason Yasu had their own room would be very obvious, as all the Fukuin servants we see besides Kanon are girls. I cant think of a good way to word it, but it seems like it'd raise more questions than it would answer.
All the ones we see are girls, but does that make sense, fundamentally? No one ever gives any indication anywhere in the story that it's weird for Kanon to be from an all-girl orphanage, so in theory there ought to be some other boys there who Yasu would be bunking with if not for Genji's intervention.

Besides, if it was an all-girl orphanage, why didn't the Witch Hunters latch onto that and make the irregularity with Kanon an issue? That would show up even if you assume Fukuin was bribed to create records for him.
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Old 2011-07-18, 02:37   Link #23254
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Actually, wait, weren't the female servants wondering why Yasu got his/her own room while they were crammed up in one themselves? Wouldn't that mean Yasu would have to share a room with the girls?

I mean, the anger and complaints that seeped out of them seemed to imply that ''It wasn't fair that she got special treatment'', but if Yasu was a butler and thus HAD to have a different room, I'm sure they wouldn't have complained about her as much.
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Old 2011-07-18, 08:13   Link #23255
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Seems like I wrote a novel, but bear with it:

I personally think Yasu was originally a boy, named Ushiromiya Lion, as that's been hinted more with the man from 19 years ago. In the fall his genitals got damaged to the point that they had to be surgically removed, which I think also prevented some essential hormones from being produced. I don't know details about that, but being originally female isn't out of the question if the removal prevents breasts from growing. Or she might be naturally flat-chested, who knows. I hadn't thought about Fukuin only having girls, but that does make sense. Another clue for Kanon being fake, or at least not being who he says he is. Well I say she was originally a boy, but had to be introduced as girl to get accepted to Fukuin, and because Kinzo knew his child was a boy, to present her as a girl would serve to hide her, right? She got the name Yasuda Sayo, and the "blessed name" Shannon.

I agree Kanon could be how Yasu normally looks like, though then I wonder how Jessica doesn't realize it, as she knew Yasu. To her, she was probably Shannon. Maybe make-up and hair-dye or something was enough. Well, her original hair colour is another mystery. Judging from Kinzo and Beatrice, she might have either the white/mint hair of Clair or Beatrice's golden hair, maybe black, gray or brown. The golden hair would be another clue for Kinzo though, so it might be unlikely. Well, if she does dress up as Beatrice, she does need to have long hair, but it can be a wig too.

On Yasu's motive, at least if she really intended to blow the island, saying her motive is the love trial isn't all there is to it. Couldn't it be said, that the creation of the catbox itself is Yasu's motive? Creating the Golden Land where everyone is happy and every love is possible, one where Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice can coexist, have complete souls and ability to make love. She might have pitied/loathed the current situation Ushiromiya family was, and wanted them to have a happier story. She also promised to bring Maria to the Golden Land, and she said she keeps her promises. The epitaph murders are something she wanted to do before dying, as she loved mysteries, and used them as a way to reach out to Battler, maybe wanting herself to be stopped.

The message bottle stories make the family conference look like a bloodshed to the public though, and not a happy story for the family. Well, a sappy story might not be taken seriously. The murders in the stories might be for the intent of making people feel sorry for the family. The stories also include clues towards the person and intent behind the murders. So rather than forcing happiness on people, they'd need to understand the intentions first.

But why didn't Yasu just give the Ushiromiya family the gold if she pitied them? Also I'm not entirely bought on Yasu actually wanting to kill everyone, with fake murder theories and all. But if the intent really was to have her as a real killer, then this is a motive I could think of.

Does anyone have guesses about the "lesser, but strange incidents" that would have happened if Battler had come one year earlier or later?

I have some doubts about EP3 too. Beatrice promised she wouldn't continue the killings if the epitaph was solved, so the culprit might have been Eva after all. It would be cool though, if Yasu was really always the killer in the question arcs. Will does say for the 2nd-6th twilight that no falsehoods of their final moments were told. If taking on the 'final moments' part, Rosa and Maria were finally killed by Beatrice, not Eva-Beatrice. For Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi we could say that Eva-Beatrice didn't kill them either, as it was the Chiesters that shot them, even though it sounds silly. For Krauss and Natsuhi's murder, I though of a theory of George letting Shannon in from the window, jumping out, and Shannon closing the window behind him. Then she proceeded to murder Krauss and Natsuhi while Eva was away. I don't know how Shannon could choke them both, but I think it was implied Umineko was more of a logic puzzle where things like that don't count. This theory says obvious culprit refers to Shannon instead of Eva, so could obvious culprit mean the overall culprit? Eva poisoning the coffee is easier explanation though, but I wanted to see how this holds up. After bringing the corpses outside she goes to the parlor with George, kills him and fakes again. And then kills Nanjo, leads Jessica around etc.

I also had a fun thought of Kanon telling Jessica the truth when talking to her in the end of EP3.
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Old 2011-07-18, 09:25   Link #23256
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As for Kanon's hair, if he did in fact disguise himself as many people, short hair is ideal for wigs, even Shannon's hair is a little longer than his.


The ''lesser, but strange'' incident would probably be a messed up relationship. ''Sorry George, I love 'ya and all, but my man Battler's back! I said I loved him more than I love you now so.....yeah''


''And uh, yeah Jessica, I know we've only been going out for about 25 minutes, but see my man Battler is back! Sorry 'bout that no hard feelings right?''.

Either that or she would have completely retired to the successful persona, and the result after Battler coming would be a simple lovers quarrel.


Kanon can pass off as a girl, should be about as tall as Shannon, seems to be acknowleged by Jessica's class mates, is seen by Battler, when Shannon and George went out, I'm pretty sure no one other than George even said anything about her.
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Old 2011-07-18, 09:53   Link #23257
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I hadn't thought about Fukuin only having girls, but that does make sense.
I don't know why. This is never really suggested in the text whatsoever and it doesn't really help anything. If anything, it makes everyone look like even bigger morons than they already are, as you have to wonder why Krauss and Natsuhi, who BASICALLY FUND AND OPERATE THE ORPHANAGE, don't question a male servant.

A better explanation for why Yasu is portrayed as a girl is because her junk was mangled to such a degree that she as given a false vagina out of what was left. It's happened before in real life.

Quote:
I agree Kanon could be how Yasu normally looks like, though then I wonder how Jessica doesn't realize it, as she knew Yasu. To her, she was probably Shannon. Maybe make-up and hair-dye or something was enough. Well, her original hair colour is another mystery. Judging from Kinzo and Beatrice, she might have either the white/mint hair of Clair or Beatrice's golden hair, maybe black, gray or brown. The golden hair would be another clue for Kinzo though, so it might be unlikely. Well, if she does dress up as Beatrice, she does need to have long hair, but it can be a wig too.
I'm pretty sure it's implied that Kinzo had red hair in his youth, given the older Battler sprites. The Jessica problem does imply that her original hair color was brown, atleast. The hairstyle can be passed off as her budding as a woman and Jessica wouldn't question it.

It is most certainly, absolutely not blonde. I don't know why people keep thinking this since it creates a massive goddamn plothole.

Quote:
I have some doubts about EP3 too. Beatrice promised she wouldn't continue the killings if the epitaph was solved, so the culprit might have been Eva after all. It would be cool though, if Yasu was really always the killer in the question arcs. Will does say for the 2nd-6th twilight that no falsehoods of their final moments were told.
That's not what Will's statement means. It means that their deaths, and the wounds/implied means of death aren't false. Natsuhi and Krauss were definitely strangled to death, for instance. Eva definitely isn't the culprit or the entire Eva/Ange subplot is invalidated.

A good explanation for why the killings continued with the Yasu theory is that Eva didn't meet Yasu at the VIP Room, and so Yasu never figured out the Epitaph was solved.

Quote:
As for Kanon's hair, if he did in fact disguise himself as many people, short hair is ideal for wigs, even Shannon's hair is a little longer than his.
That could be the artstyle. In the PS3 version, their hair looks about the same length.

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when Shannon and George went out, I'm pretty sure no one other than George even said anything about her.
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Old 2011-07-18, 10:42   Link #23258
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As for hair-colours, other than Bice and Beatrice-2, I'm sure everyone has/had black/dark-brown hair and the colours we see in the SN are just for style purposes. As for Yasu, well, she's definitely got to look Japanese, since I'm sure that's how Shannon and Kanon look and no one ever mentioned they looked like foreigners - although, when Kinzo met Yasu (disguised as Beatrice) he said her eyes look like the previous Beatrice's (there's also Battler who, in EP4, said he recognised Beatrice by her face). So, I wonder if he said that simply because she was disguised as Beatrice, or because she's got blue eyes. The thing I'm sure is that she's got to have slanted eyes, because otherwise I'm not sure how she could have played Shannon and Kanon. Well, I've met Japanese people of mixed ethnicities whom, at first, I couldn't tell if they were Japanese or not, because their eyes didn't look particularly slanted and in fact it seemed as if I was speaking to a white person who looked somewhat Japaneseish. But, again, no one ever stated Shannon and/or Kanon looking foreign or part-foreign. In countries like Japan these things get noticed easily.

But well, there are Japanese from mixed ethnicities that do have light-coloured hair and eyes. But, anyway, we've never seen a sprite for Yasu. So, it's impossible to say.

We could go by Lion's design and say Yasu looks the same. But well, going by Lion's appearance and behaviour, she's technically an older Jessica, with a behaviour very similar to Natsuhi and dresses like Krauss (well, Lion's suit is more gender-neutral). So, Lion's appearance may be a construct to fit that story, and that's I can't simply say that's how Yasu looks like.

Hopefully, we'll get a canon design for Yasu in the manga.
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Old 2011-07-18, 11:41   Link #23259
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The manga should troll everyone by canonizing a Yasu design that no one likes and satisfies no questions.
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Old 2011-07-18, 11:50   Link #23260
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
What's to doubt?
What I meant was, what several other people already said, that it's rather strange (excluding every part of chance or luck) that Battler would return one way or the other. This is again one of those points which you can see with or without love, but the fact that Battler was present and Ange wasn't makes it at least known that it was announced beforehand. Of course we need Battler there for the island plot and somebody has to stay behind to serve as a reader-perspective...but I still think there are hints that point to something more.

In case of an inheritance battler involving the cousins, which was hinted at in EP4, Battler has better chances because he is already grown up. There should at least be some truth or at least chance of truth behind that scene, so if they were suspecting something like that Kyrie and Rudolph had sufficient reason to bring Battler along instead of Ange.

Quote:
Yeah, this one throws me for a loop, too. I can only fathom, MAYBE, that a tipsy Rudolf confided in either Krauss or Hideyoshi during a conference and Yasu overheard.
I'd rather like to think that this is already the perspective of T˘ya reading Yasu's message bottle and remembering parts. It does not make much sense to be in the message bottle because it was said that it was written in the style of diary entries and beside the forged handwriting and vocabulary there was not much to doubt the legitimacy of the letters. Therefore it would be highly unusual if "Maria" depicted events that were never within her own perspective...and it also ties in with how the magic scenes are inserted, because Maria never actually witnesses a real magic scene (apart from the magical candy and the goats in EP2).

So I would dare to reason that a scene where Rudolph told Battler that he would probably be killed tonight certainly happened on the real Rokkenjima.

Quote:
I have some doubts about EP3 too. Beatrice promised she wouldn't continue the killings if the epitaph was solved, so the culprit might have been Eva after all.
I think the manga version of EP3 makes it pretty clear that the culprit of that particular scenario was actually Eva to a great deal, though not exclusively. She definitely did not kill Nanj˘ (proven by red) and probably also did not kill Rosa and Maria. She did kill Battler though in the very end and was portrayed as very much insane.
Spoiler for manga images EP3:


That does of course not mean that EP3 is true by any point. Beatrice was able to deny the very existence of "Eva-Beatrice" in the end, so it becomes clear that it never happened that way. Still Eva does possess both the ring of headship and knowledge about the hidden passages as well as the bomb...so I still find it plausible if her younger self meeting Beatrice and undergoing the crowning ritual of the witches was actually Eva meeting Yasu and obtaining everything from her.

I still go by my point that, as implied by Kyrie in EP7, the basic plot of EP3 shows nothing but a possibility of what could have happened but is not the truth.
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