AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-07-18, 12:08   Link #23261
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 20
Send a message via MSN to Bluemail
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The manga should troll everyone by canonizing a Yasu design that no one likes and satisfies no questions.
Or they conveniently leave her out of the canvas, or cut the picture from her neck upwards. It'll probably look silly in the longer run though. Or they'll solve all problems with the hair by making her bald.
If Kinzo's hair was really red and considering the Jessica problem, then brown is probably a fine guess. Well, trusting in anime hair colour heritage...

If the lesser incident is about their relationships directly like that, does it just mean Shannon and Kanon quitting? Leaving the island with Battler in 1985, or marrying George sometime after 1986 conference. Doesn't feel like justifying the expression "strange incident", but an acceptable explanation. Hmm, maybe it leads to exposing her position as the head and owner of the ten tons of gold at some point. And things happen.

The thing about the message bottles being in a diary style is an extremely good point. I did think about how scenes might actually be narrated by Maria rather than Battler, but for some reason I haven't pursued it so far that there actually was no scenes where Maria wasn't present. That removes a lot of clues about Beatrice's identity though, so Tohya must have known it before "adding scenes". According to that, in Rokkenjima Prime, Battler does get to know the truth. Unless all of that were added after EP5 so to say, where he arrived to the truth by his inside knowledge of the promise and such.

In the end of EP3, I'd say that she looks insane isn't necessarily about her being the culprit, but just breaking down after all that's happened. Maybe she had some delusions and thoughts of murdering after she found the gold. And then people started dying around her. Well, this is nothing new, just pointing out.
__________________

Umineko no Naku Koro ni ~Rondo of the Witch and Reasoning~ for PS3/PSP
NISA publisher support thread - AKSYS publisher support thread - Facebook group - deviantArt group - Petition

Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-07-18 at 12:25.
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 13:14   Link #23262
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
That removes a lot of clues about Beatrice's identity though, so Tohya must have known it before "adding scenes". According to that, in Rokkenjima Prime, Battler does get to know the truth. Unless all of that were added after EP5 so to say, where he arrived to the truth by his inside knowledge of the promise and such.
Because he did arrive at a huge amount of truth later I'd say he...or better Ushiromiya Battler learned everything on Rokkenjima Prime, probably during a meeting similar to the meeting at the balcony during EP4. But because Ushiromiya Battler is dead T˘ya has no direct access to the memories and just remembers them in flashes and inserts them into the narrative where they come up.
Like while reading the first message bottle he remembered that "Ushiromiya Rudolph said to the Battler in his memory that he would probably die that evening" and inserted it at a point before Ushiromiya Rudolph died in the narrative. That's also my plot-related explanation why Beatrice is not yet present in EP1, because the opposition (in form of the magical explanation) had not yet formed within T˘ya's head.
Basically all which the diary entries probably do is portray an impossible crime which is pinned to a witch by the narration of the (supposed) Ushiromiya Maria. The blanks between the locked rooms, magical scribbles and possibly very vague descriptions in a diary entry are then probably filled by the idea of "what if it really happened through magic" in T˘ya's head.

Another nice example is the meeting with Kinz˘ in EP1. It was probably only said "And then Aunt Natsuhi went away to meet with Grandpa Kinz˘ after she received the key from Genji-san." followed by something like "Aunt Natsuhi said that Granpa Kinz˘ refused to come out". Later she probably wrote somewhere ho "Aunt Natsuhi insists that Granpa Kinz˘ said she had the One-Winged Eagle engraved in her heart." and all those instances combined in T˘ya's head to the depiction that Natsuhi went up to the study earlier and met with Kinz˘, which we later learn is actually impossible. It was not directly marked as impossible because he had not yet remembered that Ushiromiya Kinz˘ is dead at the start of the events on Rokkenjima.

Quote:
In the end of EP3, I'd say that she looks insane isn't necessarily about her being the culprit, but just breaking down after all that's happened. Maybe she had some delusions and thoughts of murdering after she found the gold. And then people started dying around her. Well, this is nothing new, just pointing out.
It's quite possible, but the way the manga depicts it, considering Ryűkishi himself said he is supervising the content of the manga releases, it really seems to be true that at least in the context of the EP3 events Eva was the culprit and just hiding behind the witch's facade.
But yes, it can be explained in various ways...which is why I actually thought about posting the Forgery Author Test here that was mentioned in the interview with Ryűkishi I translated some time ago. It's actually a nice way of comparing theories.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 13:53   Link #23263
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
It's pretty thickly laid on that Eva only killed Battler because it was dwindled down to the two of them. "I'm not the culprit, so it must be BATTLER."
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 14:24   Link #23264
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's pretty thickly laid on that Eva only killed Battler because it was dwindled down to the two of them. "I'm not the culprit, so it must be BATTLER."
Of course there is the possibility of different culprits for each of the murders in EP3.
The 1st twilight was probably Yasu, which explains Genji's gentle death in which he allows himself to be murdered and the general depiction of events (e.g. Virgilia/Kumasawa trying to talk Beatrice/Yasu out of it). Yasu probably faked his death.
2nd twilight was possibly really as depicted, that Yasu killed Maria to spare her any cruelties and Rosa was an accident.
For 4th to 6th twilight we would have to assume that Hideyoshi shot Kyrie and Rudolph and was then shot into the back by Kyrie who survived the stomach wound long enough to do so.
7th and 8th twilight could have been Nanj˘ who drugged and killed Natsuhi and Krauss because he feared for his own life or suspected them for whatever reason.
George could have been Nanj˘ who snuck after them and killed him because he thought he was the culprit.
And Nanj˘ was a victim of Yasu for sure.

The problem I have with Eva out of the picture is:
2nd twilight: What was Yasu protecting Maria from by killing her gently? It could be explained that she learned by what Rosa said that Eva solved the epitaph and it really was still just an accident...her murder roulette was already in motion since it was the 5th already. Though that leaves the question where Eva got the ring and the location of the hidden tunnel from.
4th to 6th twilight: Why would Hideyoshi attack Rudolph and Kyrie in such a reckless manner that would allow him to be shot from behind. And more importantly, what was the scene about him being angry with Eva(-Beatrice) about then?
7th and 8th twilight: How did he get them into the garden and why would he have reason to kill them?
George is not even that unreasonable, apart from the problem how he would have returned in time and (in case Eva did murder Krauss and Natsuhi) how did he get back in unnoticed.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 14:37   Link #23265
Meltyred
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
The only magic in this whole game is how maria managed to fit a diary into a glass bottle
Meltyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 14:51   Link #23266
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
The only magic in this whole game is how maria managed to fit a diary into a glass bottle
Not really.
Most events with Maria present can be said in a few sentences and it was also said that the writing was extremely small to fit as much as possible on one page. Assuming she wrote even one entry per hour, deducting the time where she is depicted as sleeping, we get maybe 30 entries...it's possible to fit those on maybe less than 10 pages if you write small and use front and back. With some skill you could fit even more into a wine bottle.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 15:08   Link #23267
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
And Nanj˘ was a victim of Yasu for sure.
Actually, you can make a case that someone like Kyrie could have killed Nanjo by dying of their wounds after their deed. Evatrice technically never says that everyone was dead AT THE TIME OF NANJO'S MURDER, only at the time she spoke that Red.

Quote:
2nd twilight: What was Yasu protecting Maria from by killing her gently? It could be explained that she learned by what Rosa said that Eva solved the epitaph and it really was still just an accident...her murder roulette was already in motion since it was the 5th already. Though that leaves the question where Eva got the ring and the location of the hidden tunnel from.
Eva solves the Epitaph. All the shit, like the ring and probably a letter explaining everything, is present for the solver incase Yasu can't be there in person. Rosa confronts Yasu, and Yasu kills her in self-defense. Maria freaks the fuck out, causing Yasu to freak the fuck out and mercy-kill her.

Quote:
4th to 6th twilight: Why would Hideyoshi attack Rudolph and Kyrie in such a reckless manner that would allow him to be shot from behind. And more importantly, what was the scene about him being angry with Eva(-Beatrice) about then?
Hideyoshi assumes Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits. He shoots them, turns his back on them as he prepares to leave, and Kyrie's all "Gotcha bitch" (notice Evatrice used a gun to shoot Hideyoshi from behiiiind).

The Evatrice thing doesn't mean anything, it's just fantasy.

Quote:
7th and 8th twilight: How did he get them into the garden and why would he have reason to kill them?
Yasu probably coerced them for one reason or another. That's really the only way anyone can leave the Guesthouse; if the characters do so of their own free will. Maybe Yasu was by the window and was like "A bomb will blow up and Jessica will die. Come outside unarmed if you want to save her." Cue strangling because of Epitaph Murders.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 15:38   Link #23268
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Hideyoshi assumes Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits. He shoots them, turns his back on them as he prepares to leave, and Kyrie's all "Gotcha bitch" (notice Evatrice used a gun to shoot Hideyoshi from behiiiind).

The Evatrice thing doesn't mean anything, it's just fantasy.
That Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie is not only probable but a fact. The manga goes even further by adding that Ushiromiya Hideyoshi was not killed by Ushiromiya Eva.
But dismissing the fantasy scenes as just fantasy and nothing beyond that displeases me. Of course this is where we reach the point where we can argue as long as we want if there is no certain comment from the author.
Still I'd like to think that he didn't just insert those scenes just for the heck of it and because they are so misleading, especially not after he ranted in the interview about how he was sad that many people refused to see the magic scenes as hints.

Quote:
Yasu probably coerced them for one reason or another. That's really the only way anyone can leave the Guesthouse; if the characters do so of their own free will. Maybe Yasu was by the window and was like "A bomb will blow up and Jessica will die. Come outside unarmed if you want to save her." Cue strangling because of Epitaph Murders.
But why was she still continuing the Epitaph Murder if it was pretty aparent that somebody solved the epitaph. She heard from Rosa that Eva solved it and she probably went back into the gold room at least once and would have noticed the ring missing if she wasn't there herself.
Also, if she actually was planning to continue the murders after Rosa and Maria, why didn't she stake them as well?

Yes, many things don't add up in EP3, but I still think that is on prupose. You can come to many quick solutions, but none is really satisfactory.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 15:48   Link #23269
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
That Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie is not only probable but a fact. The manga goes even further by adding that Ushiromiya Hideyoshi was not killed by Ushiromiya Eva.
>Implying the manga is worth the paper it's printed on.

Quote:
But dismissing the fantasy scenes as just fantasy and nothing beyond that displeases me. Of course this is where we reach the point where we can argue as long as we want if there is no certain comment from the author.
I'm not, but we have to have SOME give-and-take here. Ryukishi himself implied that Evatrice doesn't actually represent Eva and is acting like a red herring, so Hideyoshi chiding a supernatural personification of Eva's evil for not being "the sweet girl he married" is as much a part of the meta narrative as "Eva struggling with a malevolent superpowered split personality" is.

Quote:
But why was she still continuing the Epitaph Murder if it was pretty aparent that somebody solved the epitaph. She heard from Rosa that Eva solved it and she probably went back into the gold room at least once and would have noticed the ring missing if she wasn't there herself.
Also, if she actually was planning to continue the murders after Rosa and Maria, why didn't she stake them as well?
Excuse me, but you're making up assumptions. It's not apparent that Eva solved the Epitaph because only the people who went to the VIP room at the time know about it. It's not like Eva announced it to everyone, and there's no reason to think that Yasu would know or that Rosa announced it to her in any way.

As for not staking them, as I already explained, it seems to be a mix between an "oshit" flipout and a mercy-kill. She probably wasn't in the right frame of mind to keep up her illusion, and by the time she calmed down it was too late to do anything about it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 16:15   Link #23270
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
>Implying the manga is worth the paper it's printed on.
Based on Ryűkishi himself saying he's supervising the manga version of Umineko and discussing with the artists what to put in and what not. Of course you're free to ignore that if you'd prefer.

Quote:
I'm not, but we have to have SOME give-and-take here. Ryukishi himself implied that Evatrice doesn't actually represent Eva and is acting like a red herring,
Did he? I read it in a way that he said that it would be boring if she was the murderer in every event and that Eva Beatrice is probably not limited to Ushiromiya Eva alone. The last part can just as well be limited to the murder of Nanj˘, which we already know cannot have been commited by Eva.
Okay, in you're interpretation Eva struggling with Eva-Beatrice is just a red herring and nothing more, for me it's her struggling with her potential to murder. But I think that is something which is open for interpretation.

Quote:
Excuse me, but you're making up assumptions. It's not apparent that Eva solved the Epitaph because only the people who went to the VIP room at the time know about it. It's not like Eva announced it to everyone, and there's no reason to think that Yasu would know or that Rosa announced it to her in any way.
Though I think you are mixing narrative levels here. Within the narrative of EP3 Eva did arrive at the room of gold and did solve the epitaph, though of course it's not said that it ever happened like that on the real Rokkenjima.
I think what we have to consider, and what is often forgotten, is that EP3 is not coherent within itself for a reason. If you exclude one important part of the narrative, a central murderer with a plan, then you arrive at a logic error similar to EP6.

You're making assumptions as well when you are saying that we have to ommit whole passages of the narrative and regard them as total bogus when almost everything can be explained as a metaphorical representation of an actual event.

Quote:
As for not staking them, as I already explained, it seems to be a mix between an "oshit" flipout and a mercy-kill. She probably wasn't in the right frame of mind to keep up her illusion, and by the time she calmed down it was too late to do anything about it.
But wouldn't that imply that she had less problems with killing anybody else in the course of the whole story? Then what about the murder of Jessica in EP2 or George in EP2 and EP4? Why was she able to pointblank kill them and stage their deaths but NOT in the case of Maria?! If she was actually planing on continuing the killings as she did in many other instances it seems strange for her to ommit just this once.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 16:40   Link #23271
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Based on Ryűkishi himself saying he's supervising the manga version of Umineko and discussing with the artists what to put in and what not. Of course you're free to ignore that if you'd prefer.
He said the same thing about the anime and it's goddamn trash. As much as I consider Ryukishi a friend I have to recognize his supervision over his own projects isn't worth much.

Quote:
Did he? I read it in a way that he said that it would be boring if she was the murderer in every event and that Eva Beatrice is probably not limited to Ushiromiya Eva alone. The last part can just as well be limited to the murder of Nanj˘, which we already know cannot have been commited by Eva.
Okay, in you're interpretation Eva struggling with Eva-Beatrice is just a red herring and nothing more, for me it's her struggling with her potential to murder. But I think that is something which is open for interpretation.
I do think it's a red herring, considering it's the entirety of the Fantasy Plot, which exists to mislead. Eva-culprit is the answer being FED to us, therefore it cannot be the correct one.

Quote:
Though I think you are mixing narrative levels here. Within the narrative of EP3 Eva did arrive at the room of gold and did solve the epitaph, though of course it's not said that it ever happened like that on the real Rokkenjima.
I'm speaking in the context of EP3 only. What happens after Eva returns from Rokkenjima is irrelevant to my point, because Yasu has no perception of those events.

Quote:
I think what we have to consider, and what is often forgotten, is that EP3 is not coherent within itself for a reason. If you exclude one important part of the narrative, a central murderer with a plan, then you arrive at a logic error similar to EP6.
Uh...no, you don't? It's perfectly consistent with itself so long as Yasu exists. If Yasu doesn't exist, of course the story falls apart because you're REMOVING A CENTRAL PART OF THE NARRATIVE. It'd be like a Rokkenjima without Beatrice of any form, or a Rokkenjima without Battler. It's not a Logic Error, wherein you have two existing facts that contradict each other. It's taking out a central piece of the machine and wondering why it ain't working no more.

Quote:
You're making assumptions as well when you are saying that we have to ommit whole passages of the narrative and regard them as total bogus when almost everything can be explained as a metaphorical representation of an actual event.
Uh, no i'm not, I'm applying inductive reasoning. If Eva is not in the room with Rudolf and Kyrie (and we know for a fact that she isn't), then Hideyoshi's speech makes no sense. If Eva is not the culprit, and it is very, very heavily implied that she isn't, then Hideoyshi's speech makes no sense. If Hideyoshi's speech makes no sense, he has no reason to be making it, and thus he won't be unless he's possessed by magic.

Quote:
But wouldn't that imply that she had less problems with killing anybody else in the course of the whole story? Then what about the murder of Jessica in EP2 or George in EP2 and EP4? Why was she able to pointblank kill them and stage their deaths but NOT in the case of Maria?! If she was actually planing on continuing the killings as she did in many other instances it seems strange for her to ommit just this once.
Maria is special. I shouldn't have to explain this. I believe Ryukishi has gone on record as saying that Maria is "a sacred, integral part of Beatrice's existence that she shall absolutely not defile." That's why she never kills Maria (except for the bomb) unless shit goes REALLY WRONG, in which case she is given the most peaceful, painless, dignified death possible.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 17:01   Link #23272
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Well, you can somewhat explain that last question by saying that even though Shannon wouldn't kill George and that Kanon wouldn't kill Jessica, Beatrice has no problem killing any of them since she's go no relation to them. On the other hand, Maria is Beatrice's friend, that's why you'd think she'd have problems killing here.

As for Eva not meeting Yasu in the room with the gold in EP3, Battler and Erika didn't meet her either when they found the gold in EP5. That, and I'm sure Yasu must have had a way to know if anyone had solved the Epitaph. Otherwise, unless she expected this person to announce it immediately, she'd have fail at keeping up properly with her roulette.

One thing worth mentioning is that in EP3 we didn't see Beatrice do any killings outside of the 1st Twilight. So, the fact we saw Evatrice doing them must have meant something. Evatrice was also the avatar for the "black witch" and this one usually represented adults doing things like being bad parents, or doing criminal things because of greed. So, she could easily represent any of the adults. As for why, there are a bunch of reasons, like plain suspicion. It's also not out of the question someone else got to the gold (or say... followed Eva and/or Rosa) and started killing the rest to keep the gold to himself.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 17:26   Link #23273
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
He said the same thing about the anime and it's goddamn trash. As much as I consider Ryukishi a friend I have to recognize his supervision over his own projects isn't worth much.
Well that is your opinion. I recently rewatched it and I think it basically contains everything one needs to know from the first 4 Episodes to form a reasonable hypothesis...except for maybe the crime scene inspection by Battler at the end of EP4.

Quote:
I do think it's a red herring, considering it's the entirety of the Fantasy Plot, which exists to mislead. Eva-culprit is the answer being FED to us, therefore it cannot be the correct one.
Well, Eva-culprit is wrong in the grand scheme of things, but I think it is still highly possible that she can be the culprit of 4 to 5 murders in EP3 without violating that fact that she neither planned it nor is the core of the solution. She is just as much a tool as Rosa in EP2 or as much a lunatic as Kyrie in EP7.
Like it is said about Kyrie's speech concerning the probability of Eva becoming a murderer by the narrator during EP7:
Spoiler for citation:
.
Ushiromiya Eva IS a wrong deduction done by T˘ya in the future based on the fact that Ushiromiya Eva survived after all.
Quote:
I'm speaking in the context of EP3 only. What happens after Eva returns from Rokkenjima is irrelevant to my point, because Yasu has no perception of those events.
That point would be okay if we were speaking about a message bottle, but EP3 is not a message bottle written by Yasu but a novel released in the world after 1986. It HAS the knowledge of Ushiromiya Eva surviving and thus bases the whole argumentative structure on the fact that by inductive reasoning Eva has to be the culprit because she survived and others did not.

Quote:
Uh...no, you don't? It's perfectly consistent with itself so long as Yasu exists. If Yasu doesn't exist, of course the story falls apart because you're REMOVING A CENTRAL PART OF THE NARRATIVE. It'd be like a Rokkenjima without Beatrice of any form, or a Rokkenjima without Battler. It's not a Logic Error, wherein you have two existing facts that contradict each other. It's taking out a central piece of the machine and wondering why it ain't working no more.
But it leads to the logic error, and please follow me there without getting angry (as it's hard to reason with people who appear that angry), that everybody is dead or has an alibi and still Ushiromiya Eva did not murder Nanj˘. And even though she didn't murder Nanj˘ she had a reason to shoot Battler in the end. This is a logic error in the context of EP3 as the author is not fully aware of the existence of Yasu. Thus he writes himself into a corner.

Quote:
Uh, no i'm not, I'm applying inductive reasoning. If Eva is not in the room with Rudolf and Kyrie (and we know for a fact that she isn't), then Hideyoshi's speech makes no sense. If Eva is not the culprit, and it is very, very heavily implied that she isn't, then Hideoyshi's speech makes no sense. If Hideyoshi's speech makes no sense, he has no reason to be making it, and thus he won't be unless he's possessed by magic.
But this relies on the fact that you believe that Ushiromiya Eva is not in the mansion with them at that point and did not shoot Kyrie and Rudolph. What makes you believe that this is correct? Of course it can be correct, but there is no definite proof that Eva was not in the mansion at that point.
Maybe I am missing something, but where does it say that it is a fact that Eva was not in the mansion?

Quote:
Maria is special. I shouldn't have to explain this. I believe Ryukishi has gone on record as saying that Maria is "a sacred, integral part of Beatrice's existence that she shall absolutely not defile." That's why she never kills Maria (except for the bomb) unless shit goes REALLY WRONG, in which case she is given the most peaceful, painless, dignified death possible.
Okay, that is probably true but it still doesn't answer every question. If Yasu was still in charge of the murders, why did Beatrice say that she was unable to take Maria to the golden land now? Why didn't Maria play along like she did during EP4? Yes, maybe watching her mother die had a different impact on her than just hearing about it, but something about that instance seems off if you just blame Beatrice during that scene...
In case you want to dismiss Eva as the culprit, at least think about Rudolph killing them.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 17:30   Link #23274
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
As for Eva not meeting Yasu in the room with the gold in EP3, Battler and Erika didn't meet her either when they found the gold in EP5. That, and I'm sure Yasu must have had a way to know if anyone had solved the Epitaph. Otherwise, unless she expected this person to announce it immediately, she'd have fail at keeping up properly with her roulette.
Well, Battler and Erika announced it. Without any evidence to the contrary, we can only assume he had no plans for this sort of thing. After all, why would any of the adults NOT announce their new headship? They all want it so much!

Yasu is nothing of not hopelessly naive. It's her defining character flaw.

Quote:
One thing worth mentioning is that in EP3 we didn't see Beatrice do any killings outside of the 1st Twilight. So, the fact we saw Evatrice doing them must have meant something. Evatrice was also the avatar for the "black witch" and this one usually represented adults doing things like being bad parents, or doing criminal things because of greed. So, she could easily represent any of the adults. As for why, there are a bunch of reasons, like plain suspicion. It's also not out of the question someone else got to the gold (or say... followed Eva and/or Rosa) and started killing the rest to keep the gold to himself.
The Black Witch only took the form of Evatrice because Eva is the figure Ange most hated. I wouldn't use it as grounds for a connection. Furthermore, the Fantasy scenes are, again, misleading. EP8's TIPS describe Eva-Beatrice as "The lid that seals the truth of 1986."

What this means, really, when you consider what Beatrice IS, is that Eva takes over Yasu's role of martyring herself to protect the illusion. She doesn't deny the allegations put against her for whatever reason, and as long as she doesn't come forward with the truth, she will continue to be the evil witch that killed everyone, even though this isn't the truth. The same goes for EP3.

Quote:
Well, Eva-culprit is wrong in the grand scheme of things, but I think it is still highly possible that she can be the culprit of 4 to 5 murders in EP3 without violating that fact that she neither planned it nor is the core of the solution. She is just as much a tool as Rosa in EP2 or as much a lunatic as Kyrie in EP7.
Like it is said about Kyrie's speech concerning the probability of Eva becoming a murderer by the narrator during EP7:
There should be as few culprits as necessary by virtue of good narrative. Who does Eva kill, and why does SHE need to be the one to kill them, and what's the reason for doing so, and what's the reason for complying with the Epitaph ritual if she does so?

Quote:
That point would be okay if we were speaking about a message bottle, but EP3 is not a message bottle written by Yasu but a novel released in the world after 1986. It HAS the knowledge of Ushiromiya Eva surviving and thus bases the whole argumentative structure on the fact that by inductive reasoning Eva has to be the culprit because she survived and others did not.
Or it could be a commentary on the flaws of that approach, put forward by Toya who feels it's wrong and doesn't know why, writing a story where Eva is the culprit but it doesn't feel entirely right for her to be so. Subconsciously, he wrote Yasu as the culprit because his unconscious mind knows better.

And Toya is already doing Hollywood Psychology Gymnastics, so this is valid.

Quote:
But it leads to the logic error, and please follow me there without getting angry (as it's hard to reason with people who appear that angry), that everybody is dead or has an alibi and still Ushiromiya Eva did not murder Nanj˘. And even though she didn't murder Nanj˘ she had a reason to shoot Battler in the end. This is a logic error in the context of EP3 as the author is not fully aware of the existence of Yasu. Thus he writes himself into a corner.
I'm not being angry, I'm being passionate. My apologies.

See above: Yasu exists, and Toya on some level knows this, else he wouldn't of done the Nanjo murder in the first place.

Quote:
But this relies on the fact that you believe that Ushiromiya Eva is not in the mansion with them at that point and did not shoot Kyrie and Rudolph. What makes you believe that this is correct? Of course it can be correct, but there is no definite proof that Eva was not in the mansion at that point.
Maybe I am missing something, but where does it say that it is a fact that Eva was not in the mansion?
It is highly implied that Eva is spending most of her time in the Guesthouse room for whatever reason. Yes, there's the problem of Hideyoshi smoking in her room, but she used the same excuse to go solve the Epitaph as she does AFTERWARDS, and the cigarette butts aren't exactly timestamped. A red herring inside a red herring, I'm saying.

Even if she was there, She remains dry when she's seen shortly after those Twilights, and the distance between the two buildings is a sizable walk.

To top it off, she...really has no motive to kill Rudolf and Kyrie whatsoever, and they're STAKED, implying that Yasu did it because why the hell would Eva do this?

Eva clearly didn't kill the First Twilight victims, or any of the other staked victims because it's clearly Yasu's modus operandi, which Eva has no reason to adopt especially if she's going insane. She'd never kill George or Hideyoshi, we agree that Yasu probably did the Second Twilight, and she couldn't of done Nanjo.

Basically, the only person Eva could have killed is Battler.

Quote:
Okay, that is probably true but it still doesn't answer every question. If Yasu was still in charge of the murders, why did Beatrice say that she was unable to take Maria to the golden land now? Why didn't Maria play along like she did during EP4? Yes, maybe watching her mother die had a different impact on her than just hearing about it, but something about that instance seems off if you just blame Beatrice during that scene...
In case you want to dismiss Eva as the culprit, at least think about Rudolph killing them.
"OHGODMAMAMAMA SHES DEAD SHE TRIED TO SHOOT YOU BEATO BRING MAMA BACK UUU" "I can't. Um." "THEN TAKE ME TO THE GOLDEN LAND WITH YOUR MAGIC."

Yasu reflects on how she can't have revived Sakutarou, and now she can't even bring her back to her mother. Well...there is one way.

Maria had seen a gruesome, violent scene that was clearly between two humans. She can't even convince her of further magical excuses, and she can't come up with any in this stressful "ohshit" moment. "Relax, Maria...I'll send you back to your mother. Everything....Everything will be fine..."
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2011-07-18 at 17:42.
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 18:10   Link #23275
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Ok, I know it's been well established that the actual text a person would read in R-Prime likely doesnt match, word for word, what WE'VE read for the individual arcs, but :

1.) What does Tohya inserting scenes into Yasu's narrative serve? It's the fact that Battler's wierd heritage was HINTED in EP1 that allowed it to be used as a bullshit theory in EP5.

2.) I won't say "those message bottles were not written from Maria's perspective", but if Yasu really wanted the message bottles to be "solved", that's very difficult from Maria's limited perspective. Also, she dies twice. In EP3, relatively early, too, and EP3 is accepted as a legitimate-sounding forgery to those who read it. In End and Dawn (wonky as they were), she was dead from the get-go.

3.) Again, while I can't deny it, I just don't see his parents bringing Battler back as some kind of inheritance gambit. What makes them think they can even get the inheritance? They think Kinzo is dead, and "Maybe this year, if he's actually alive, he'll have some elaborate test among the children" seems like a jump. Yasu did not go out of her way to get Battler to return. Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is dead. Ange has been consistently portrayed as just a sickly ass child. I'm not seeing where the conspiracy goes. o_o

4.) Yasu pulls the first twilight. Eva accidentally kills Rosa, freaks out and kills Maria. Kyrie/Rudolf and Evayoshi have a shootout in the mansion - only Eva survives. George wanders off to go be stupid, gets shot by Yasu. Meanwhile, Eva kills Kratsuhi because "fuck it" by this point (she probably knows about the bomb, unless her ending up at Kuwadorian was a huge coinky-dink), and it wouldn't even be hard because Kratsuhi was basically running on coffee fumes by then.

Jessica gets injured, Eva+Battler wander off. Yasu kills Nanjo because ... ... ... ... and goes off with blind Jessica to ... not cuddle in a curtain until gold-splosion. Or maybe Yasu killed her, since Eva and Battler can't seem to find Jessica afterwards. Eva kills Battler out of either temporary insanity or genuine suspicion, then hgscrambles to Kuwadorian because it was easier to let the bomb go off than try to explain what the hell had just happened to the police.

Objections? The only real issue I can't resolve are the stakes in Kratsuhi.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 18:46   Link #23276
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Even if she was there, She remains dry when she's seen shortly after those Twilights, and the distance between the two buildings is a sizable walk.
Careful now. Ryuukishi said that one thing the games all have in common is that none of them consider the effects of rainfall on the murderer. Even Dlanor wasn't allowed to bring that in.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 19:01   Link #23277
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
After all, why would any of the adults NOT announce their new headship? They all want it so much!
For the same reason Eva didn't do it, since Krauss, Natsuhi (and quite likely the other siblings) wouldn't accept it so easily. It really isn't a hard thing to think about, considering the type of people they are, and the fact that this whole epitaph succession is not back-up by any law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Black Witch only took the form of Evatrice because Eva is the figure Ange most hated. I wouldn't use it as grounds for a connection. Furthermore, the Fantasy scenes are, again, misleading. EP8's TIPS describe Eva-Beatrice as "The lid that seals the truth of 1986."
I think it works as a connection, since Kazumi's situation pretty much paralleled what we had seen before with Maria and the whole thing about the black witch. Evatrice was pretty much playing the role of the Black Witch, and she also seems to be doing so in EP3. In fact, the "lid that seals the truth of 1986" quote works really well in this case, I think. Through magic goggles, it's not that the adults are doing anything bad, but the Black Witch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What this means, really, when you consider what Beatrice IS, is that Eva takes over Yasu's role of martyring herself to protect the illusion. She doesn't deny the allegations put against her for whatever reason, and as long as she doesn't come forward with the truth, she will continue to be the evil witch that killed everyone, even though this isn't the truth. The same goes for EP3.
I think this works perfectly along with the "Black Witch" idea. The Black Witch protects the illusion, and since Eva was the sole survivor and the main culprit, her image is issued to portray this evil witch. It also works since Eva is also protecting the catbox, so that Ange doesn't have to deal with the truth.

I wouldn't know about Yasu playing martyr, though, since everything points out she was the main culprit in the fictions and that she did plan all this stuff in reality, even if in the end, the whole thing went out of control.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 19:13   Link #23278
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

"OHGODMAMAMAMA SHES DEAD SHE TRIED TO SHOOT YOU BEATO BRING MAMA BACK UUU" "I can't. Um." "THEN TAKE ME TO THE GOLDEN LAND WITH YOUR MAGIC."

Yasu reflects on how she can't have revived Sakutarou, and now she can't even bring her back to her mother. Well...there is one way.

Maria had seen a gruesome, violent scene that was clearly between two humans. She can't even convince her of further magical excuses, and she can't come up with any in this stressful "ohshit" moment. "Relax, Maria...I'll send you back to your mother. Everything....Everything will be fine..."
This would work if Maria wasn't always portrayed as a character that doesn't give a damn about people dying. The only time where she flipped out was in EP6 and it was during a fantasy scene.

EP3 has a lot of problems, but I really do think that it can be solved with Eva killing some people and Yasu killing the others. The way RK07 kinda flicked off that question in his interview gave the impression that the obvious answer was that Yasu killed George and probably Jessica as well.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 20:28   Link #23279
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
3.) Again, while I can't deny it, I just don't see his parents bringing Battler back as some kind of inheritance gambit. What makes them think they can even get the inheritance? They think Kinzo is dead, and "Maybe this year, if he's actually alive, he'll have some elaborate test among the children" seems like a jump. Yasu did not go out of her way to get Battler to return. Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is dead. Ange has been consistently portrayed as just a sickly ass child. I'm not seeing where the conspiracy goes. o_o
It's called covering your bases. Even if Kinzo is dead they can squeeze money out of Krauss and having their son there makes things easier, and if Kinzo IS alive they need to have as many assets on board in preparation for his shenanigans. Ange's always been sickly but this is the first time she missed a conference.

Quote:
Careful now. Ryuukishi said that one thing the games all have in common is that none of them consider the effects of rainfall on the murderer. Even Dlanor wasn't allowed to bring that in.
Yea, I know, but it doesn't hurt to bring up. The distance thing is still valid though.

Quote:
For the same reason Eva didn't do it, since Krauss, Natsuhi (and quite likely the other siblings) wouldn't accept it so easily. It really isn't a hard thing to think about, considering the type of people they are, and the fact that this whole epitaph succession is not back-up by any law.
But does Yasu know this? She doesn't know everything the reader does because she isn't omniscient, and she doesn't get to go into the other character's heads. She can only guess, and the only instance where someone claiming the headship (EP3) wasn't even written by her.

Quote:
I think it works as a connection, since Kazumi's situation pretty much paralleled what we had seen before with Maria and the whole thing about the black witch. Evatrice was pretty much playing the role of the Black Witch, and she also seems to be doing so in EP3. In fact, the "lid that seals the truth of 1986" quote works really well in this case, I think. Through magic goggles, it's not that the adults are doing anything bad, but the Black Witch.
Eh, I don't think so. There's no personal malice in the Epitaph Killings. It's impersonal. Gain driven. There's nothing against the people themselves except that they're obstacles.

The Black Witch, on the other hand, has consistently been portrayed as a personification of people taking their anger out on others. Rosa's abuse of Maria, Eva's abuse of Ange, and so on and so forth. It's not responsible for murder, but it's much more prevalent and harmful than that. It's something everyone does to each other in order to make themselves feel better. It's Bullying Personified.

Eva-Beatrice is not the Black Witch. The Black Witch only took her face.

Quote:
I think this works perfectly along with the "Black Witch" idea. The Black Witch protects the illusion, and since Eva was the sole survivor and the main culprit, her image is issued to portray this evil witch. It also works since Eva is also protecting the catbox, so that Ange doesn't have to deal with the truth.
See above.

Quote:
I wouldn't know about Yasu playing martyr, though, since everything points out she was the main culprit in the fictions and that she did plan all this stuff in reality, even if in the end, the whole thing went out of control.
In the more logical scenario (IE the one Ryukishi should've taken to make the most of his themes), Yasu would've been the victim only in her stories, and the Rokkenjima Prime culprit is someone she's taking the wrap for.

In the worst case scenario where she is the killer, she's kill putting herself up as the Ultimate Evil, taking the sins of the whole family onto herself so that they don't have be marked down in history as total scumbags like Eva was.

Quote:
This would work if Maria wasn't always portrayed as a character that doesn't give a damn about people dying. The only time where she flipped out was in EP6 and it was during a fantasy scene.
Uh, no. She doesn't mind people dying in every other instance because she genuinely believes that Beatrice did it and will revive them afterwards when they got to the Golden Land. If she witnesses the scene I described (Yasu unveiled as a pitiful human, a violent, all-too-mortal bloodshow ending in Rosa being piked on the fence), then it's pretty obvious Mama ain't comin' back.

Quote:
EP3 has a lot of problems, but I really do think that it can be solved with Eva killing some people and Yasu killing the others. The way RK07 kinda flicked off that question in his interview gave the impression that the obvious answer was that Yasu killed George and probably Jessica as well.
Jessica was probably Bombed, given her TIP. I think the cleanest answer is that Yasu killed everyone. There's no real clean case for Eva only killing SOME people. If Yasu's gonna kill ANYBODY post-Eva-Headship, she might as well just do it all like she always fucking does.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-07-18, 21:09   Link #23280
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Eh, I don't think so. There's no personal malice in the Epitaph Killings. It's impersonal. Gain driven. There's nothing against the people themselves except that they're obstacles.

The Black Witch, on the other hand, has consistently been portrayed as a personification of people taking their anger out on others. Rosa's abuse of Maria, Eva's abuse of Ange, and so on and so forth. It's not responsible for murder, but it's much more prevalent and harmful than that. It's something everyone does to each other in order to make themselves feel better. It's Bullying Personified.

Eva-Beatrice is not the Black Witch. The Black Witch only took her face.
I don't think the Black Witch is necessarily limited to negative feelings toward others, but to any kind of wrong-doing you just don't want to admit someone else did, and thus you attribute that to the Black Witch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
In the more logical scenario (IE the one Ryukishi should've taken to make the most of his themes), Yasu would've been the victim only in her stories, and the Rokkenjima Prime culprit is someone she's taking the wrap for.

In the worst case scenario where she is the killer, she's kill putting herself up as the Ultimate Evil, taking the sins of the whole family onto herself so that they don't have be marked down in history as total scumbags like Eva was.
I'd have agreed to idea of Yasu being a scapegoat by EP6, but after having heard Clair's confession in EP7, I don't think Yasu is particularly innocent. That's why I said that, even if she didn't end up killing anyone in R.Prime, she did plan to do it had no one attempted to solve the epitaph. There's the whole deal about killing for love that was made painfully clear in EP4, EP6 and in that latest R07 interview as well.

As for Yasu taking the sins of the others... well, that didn't really work, considering it seems the theorists are pretty much putting the blame on everyone. We also saw in EP8 what seemed to be Ange's friends taking about the murderers with a high implication they were talking about Rudolph and Kyrie. Not to mention the stories themselves show many facets of the Ushiromiyas, from them being shitty parents and gold-diggers to them showing some virtues as well.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.