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Old 2011-07-17, 15:52   Link #3301
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by Aldaeus View Post
Wait... My brain just broke... Did Duo just describe Noin's lips as "Alluring!?!?" I think I know why Hilde got a little ticked off and snapped his arm and demanded a divorce ... Sleeping around with Zechs's wife, for shame Duo... Thou ought not covet thy neighbors wife...
Truth to be told, Hilde and Noin look a lot alike, so I'm not that surprised that Duo is digging her. Then again, he's digging everyone. What was that with Relena's smile being lethal to him?

As for Quatrine mentioning Hilde, I think it's a jibe at Duo because 'it's common knowledge' that Hilde doesn't want him anywhere close to her, let alone talk to him.
If Hilde were dead, Duo wouldn't need to specify himself not being able to talk to her.
So yeah, I think Quatrine is just being a snotty little miss. I may be mistaken but I get the impression she's generally brazen. So unlike Quatre...
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Old 2011-07-17, 16:32   Link #3302
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Truth to be told, Hilde and Noin look a lot alike, so I'm not that surprised that Duo is digging her. Then again, he's digging everyone. What was that with Relena's smile being lethal to him?

As for Quatrine mentioning Hilde, I think it's a jibe at Duo because 'it's common knowledge' that Hilde doesn't want him anywhere close to her, let alone talk to him.
If Hilde were dead, Duo wouldn't need to specify himself not being able to talk to her.
So yeah, I think Quatrine is just being a snotty little miss. I may be mistaken but I get the impression she's generally brazen. So unlike Quatre...
Because he's a ladies man ;P

And yeah, Katherine's definitely just a real brat LOL She's pretty creepy. She reminds me a lot of Mariemaia, actually.... I wonder if she's ever going to pop up, but I'm starting to think maybe not, since even Dorothy and Une have only been mentioned.
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Old 2011-07-17, 17:00   Link #3303
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
And yeah, Katherine's definitely just a real brat LOL She's pretty creepy. She reminds me a lot of Mariemaia, actually....
Shame on you Kit, now you're getting my hopes up that Relena will bitch slap her.

As for Mariemaia, I don't know. We had the most random of people mentioned like Sylvia or the Clarks *cue Superman theme* and considering FT might be dragged out for years, it's not out of the realm of possibility that she'll pop up sometime. And even if she doesn't, we can be sure that at the very least she'll be related to someone. xD

By the way, there's one little thing about the PPP that has me wonder. Everyone going to Mars has been injected with that stuff except for Heero, because he was frozen in a capsule and is thus the only one who can kill Relena, right?
Thing is, Relena was frozen, too. So unless she was given the PPP as well (which would presumably result in a very weird, yet somehow amusing relationship with Heero in a few MC years), shouldn't she be able to just kill herself? You know, take a leaf out of Heero's book and go for suicide? It would kill the drama but, umm, yeah.
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Old 2011-07-17, 17:43   Link #3304
Faerie
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Am I alone in liking Quaterine more for being an annoying little brat?
Somehow I have a soft spot for female characters that are snotty and rude. Doesn't apply to boys though. Sexist, I know xD (and I'm a girl)

other points:

- yayyy, Noin <3 Seriously, if Hilde isn't dead, it's understandable she wouldn't want Duo, what with thinking about someone else's wife like that.
- that said, I never really got the 3x9 fandom, I thought 9xSally would be fun. But actually, 2x9, from Duo's POV always made sense to me to the point that I could see it happening, purely based on Duo's attraction- if for nothing else then because of the obvious similarity to Hilde. Who pretty much looks like she's at minimum related to Noin Same with one-sided 2xRelena. He just wants everything that moves.
So imo it's pretty funny that this was written into the novel.

Also: I'm in love with Tallgeese Heaven, and I wish that there will be an illustration real soon.
Still, I can't stop laughing at the whole "Wind of Cyrene" thing, even though it's old by now. Especially in combination with:
Quote:
"Wind of Cyrene..."

That was during Christmas four years ago.

Lucrezia Noin took out the chip after she finished copying and gently smiled as she saw the dazzling light in the main monitor.

"[Tallgeese Heaven]...
sigh- So nothing has changed, Noin, has it....? Still same old, same old....
Plus, Zechs really still has issues, still calling himself ridiculous names, and impersonating angels with dazzling lights and gold, and wings, and a HALO, for christ's sake!!!
He'll start sparkling one day very soon, and it's only downhill from there....
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Old 2011-07-17, 21:00   Link #3305
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
...shouldn't she be able to just kill herself? You know, take a leaf out of Heero's book and go for suicide? It would kill the drama but, umm, yeah.
Relena isn't the type to commit suicide though, I don't think. And we all know even though Heero's mission is to kill her that he's going to find another way.
Because, as we know- he's the one who can make the impossible possible
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Am I alone in liking Quaterine more for being an annoying little brat?
Somehow I have a soft spot for female characters that are snotty and rude.
Nope, I love it too (That's why I love Jr, too)
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Same with one-sided 2xRelena. He just wants everything that moves.
HAHA that reminds me of this illustration by REI: http://pixiv.blogimg.jp/usabiba/imgs/d/e/dee8fae0.jpg
She ships 1xRx2 as an OT3, iirc.
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Plus, Zechs really still has issues, still calling himself ridiculous names, and impersonating angels with dazzling lights and gold, and wings, and a HALO, for christ's sake!!!
He'll start sparkling one day very soon, and it's only downhill from there....
HAHA this! Oh Zechs, you have even more of an angel compex than Heero...
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Old 2011-07-17, 21:31   Link #3306
mirei
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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post

HAHA that reminds me of this illustration by REI: http://pixiv.blogimg.jp/usabiba/imgs/d/e/dee8fae0.jpg
She ships 1xRx2 as an OT3, iirc.
"If Heero sees us, I'm a dead man." Love it~ C:

I don't mind Duo Sr. flirting with everyone, though he's already an old man. And, his narration is actually entertaining.
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Old 2011-07-17, 21:38   Link #3307
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"You too, I'm glad you haven't changed." Oh, Relena dear, YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

Anyway. Thanks, Kitsoru and mirei for clarifying! ^_^

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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
Because he's a ladies man ;P
Lol agreed! I noticed he can be very descriptive of women's looks. Didn't he comment about Kathy looking heaps like her mum, and Naina looking heaps like her auntie... like way back? And now Relena (superior beauty) and Noin (alluring lips). Man, seriously, the 'alluring' there shocked me lol. In a good way.

Duo. No wonder Hilde broke it off with you!! XD

Oh yeah, I remember Duo calling Relena "good-looking" at one point in the English dub. I have to admit, that irked me quite a bit. Not that I disagree, I think Relena's pretty. But I was like, mehh, these dubbers shouldn't have done that because in the Japanese version, he only said "ojou-san" or something. Changing it like THAT just seemed like he was hitting on her. Oh well, FT just vindicated the English dub. Now I know for sure. Duo does acknowledge good looks when he sees it. Lol. If it's women's, that is. XD

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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
By the way, there's one little thing about the PPP that has me wonder. Everyone going to Mars has been injected with that stuff except for Heero, because he was frozen in a capsule and is thus the only one who can kill Relena, right?
Thing is, Relena was frozen, too. So unless she was given the PPP as well (which would presumably result in a very weird, yet somehow amusing relationship with Heero in a few MC years), shouldn't she be able to just kill herself? You know, take a leaf out of Heero's book and go for suicide? It would kill the drama but, umm, yeah.
Hey, that's a good one, dude. ^_^ You know, sometimes I can't help but think Sumizawa just wanted to revive the "I'll kill you, Relena" plot so badly that he used the... easiest? way he could think of to make it happen, albeit the idea's ridiculous. That's the first impression FT gave me when I found out the real reason behind Heero's defrosting.

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Originally Posted by Mareike View Post
Hahaha! I was about 11 or 12 when I first saw GW, and I loved Noin from the get-go. As a little girl, I really admired her. I still do - even more so than before. :3 I don't even think I'd learn to love Zechs as much as I do if it weren't for her. (My first crush, though... was Treize. Thought Zechs was a weirdo, mask and all. XD)
Ngaawww man, the bit you quoted was from me. Not from Verona Price.

Anyway, I feel ya. I dunno, I guess I've always liked the girls more than the guys. IMO, some of the guys didn't treat their female counterparts the way they deserved, you know? And I've always hated how it seemed like the chicks were absolutely fine with it. I don't think Sumizawa's aware that he could be quite the misogynistic writer at times. So yeah, I feel the same way, especially for Heero and Relena. I don't think I'd learn to love Heero as much as I do if it weren't for his leading lady, ngl.

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Originally Posted by mirei View Post
"If Heero sees us, I'm a dead man."
Eh? Haha. Now, Duo...
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Old 2011-07-17, 21:53   Link #3308
Mareike
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Truth to be told, Hilde and Noin look a lot alike, so I'm not that surprised that Duo is digging her. Then again, he's digging everyone. What was that with Relena's smile being lethal to him?

As for Quatrine mentioning Hilde, I think it's a jibe at Duo because 'it's common knowledge' that Hilde doesn't want him anywhere close to her, let alone talk to him.
If Hilde were dead, Duo wouldn't need to specify himself not being able to talk to her.
So yeah, I think Quatrine is just being a snotty little miss. I may be mistaken but I get the impression she's generally brazen. So unlike Quatre...
I get the same impression of Quatrine. She's beginning to border on creepy in my book, too. Count me in among those who wish for Relena to bitch!slap the girl. >

EDIT: I completely forgot about Hilde shunning Duo. You're right, it could be just that. >_>

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
other points:

- yayyy, Noin <3 Seriously, if Hilde isn't dead, it's understandable she wouldn't want Duo, what with thinking about someone else's wife like that.
- that said, I never really got the 3x9 fandom, I thought 9xSally would be fun. But actually, 2x9, from Duo's POV always made sense to me to the point that I could see it happening, purely based on Duo's attraction- if for nothing else then because of the obvious similarity to Hilde. Who pretty much looks like she's at minimum related to Noin Same with one-sided 2xRelena. He just wants everything that moves.
So imo it's pretty funny that this was written into the novel.
LOL! Found it really amusing, Duo's weak spot for pretty girls. In his defense, Duo's prolly just gonna say that he's just being appreciative of the ladies. Though, yeah, I could see that tendency in him. He's blood type B, too, right?

Quote:
Also: I'm in love with Tallgeese Heaven, and I wish that there will be an illustration real soon.
Still, I can't stop laughing at the whole "Wind of Cyrene" thing, even though it's old by now. Especially in combination with:


sigh- So nothing has changed, Noin, has it....? Still same old, same old....
Plus, Zechs really still has issues, still calling himself ridiculous names, and impersonating angels with dazzling lights and gold, and wings, and a HALO, for christ's sake!!!
He'll start sparkling one day very soon, and it's only downhill from there....
Ahahaha! Noticed that, too. Zechs is lucky to have a very steadfast, loving wife. I wish I could say the same for Noin's luck when it comes to her husband's... eccentricities. XD

And no, Zechs. Just. NO. Call yourself all the names you want just lay off the damn sparkles!!!

--- EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces
Lol agreed! I noticed he can be very descriptive of women's looks. Didn't he comment about Kathy looking heaps like her mum, and Naina looking heaps like her auntie... like way back? And now Relena (superior beauty) and Noin (alluring lips). Man, seriously, the 'alluring' there shocked me lol. In a good way.
Third the motion. At least we can rely on him to provide us descriptions of our favorite girls. The really funny thing about it though is that, for all the other girls he gave a rather... general description. For Noin he had been specific about her eyes and alluring lips. Not that I'm complaining, of course. But yeah. It still has me snickering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces
Ngaawww man, the bit you quoted was from me. Not from Verona Price.

Anyway, I feel ya. I dunno, I guess I've always liked the girls more than the guys. IMO, some of the guys didn't treat their female counterparts the way they deserved, you know? And I've always hated how it seemed like the chicks were absolutely fine with it. I don't think Sumizawa's aware that he could be quite the misogynistic writer at times. So yeah, I feel the same way, especially for Heero and Relena. I don't think I'd learn to love Heero as much as I do if it weren't for his leading lady, ngl.
Ack! I am so sorry! But yes, I get you. I felt that way, too. The series had all these amazing women, but they were relegated to the background for the most part (although Noin seemed perfectly fine with this given her stance on war) or not treated as well as they deserved because their male counterparts were busy fighting a war with the world/colonies and themselves (Duo seems pretty attentive, though - LOLJK Duo). On a slightly positive note, that did work to show the underlying strength of the girls that the boys used as their... crutches, at one point or another.

There were times when the girls gave them a piece of their mind (or fist - O HAI Cathrine!)... Not much, but at least... there were moments. *sigh*

Last edited by Mareike; 2011-07-17 at 23:23. Reason: Forgot to mention something that I forgot about the novel... and I quoted the wrong the person...
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Old 2011-07-18, 00:17   Link #3309
Nishiio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Thing is, Relena was frozen, too. So unless she was given the PPP as well (which would presumably result in a very weird, yet somehow amusing relationship with Heero in a few MC years), shouldn't she be able to just kill herself? You know, take a leaf out of Heero's book and go for suicide? It would kill the drama but, umm, yeah.
Hahaha. Yeah, FT would only be like 2 chapters long if Relena just killed herself. xP But yay, they get to meet again...and play the whole "I WILL KILL YOU lol jk not rly" game haha.

Thanks for the translations and the discussion! It's all very confusing but fun at the same time. ^^;;
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Old 2011-07-18, 06:52   Link #3310
Faerie
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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
Nope, I love it too (That's why I love Jr, too)

HAHA that reminds me of this illustration by REI: http://pixiv.blogimg.jp/usabiba/imgs/d/e/dee8fae0.jpg
She ships 1xRx2 as an OT3, iirc.
Glad to hear that! If she had a sweet, Quatre- like personality, and was a nice little ojou-chan who plays the violin, she'd probably be unnoticeable and boring.

Ooooh Thing is, I can't see Relena agreeing to it at all. She'd probably be all "sigh- not again, Duo..."
Despite all his interest in girls, I don't imagine he'd be very successful. They'd all turn him down every time- except Hilde, who for some reason would have him.
Well, until she got fed up too that is

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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
HAHA this! Oh Zechs, you have even more of an angel compex than Heero...
It's pretty disturbing, actually. Both of them need to go see someone. At least Heero doesn't call himself creepy names yet.

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Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces View Post
Anyway, I feel ya. I dunno, I guess I've always liked the girls more than the guys. IMO, some of the guys didn't treat their female counterparts the way they deserved, you know? And I've always hated how it seemed like the chicks were absolutely fine with it. I don't think Sumizawa's aware that he could be quite the misogynistic writer at times. So yeah, I feel the same way, especially for Heero and Relena. I don't think I'd learn to love Heero as much as I do if it weren't for his leading lady, ngl.
this.
Though it happens in a lot of Gundam shows (actually pretty much all of them, with a few exceptions maybe), the girls always have to take a backseat to the guy's abilities/machinery- even if they start out as "strong pilots". And they think it's normal.
That might've been fine in the 70ies, but it isn't now. In recent years, how many females had piloting abilities equal to or superior to the guys and weren't just piloting for eye-candy reasons while actually being mainly complementary to the guys or fulfilling other roles?
Arguably none in Wing, unless you count Noin.
Of course the roles they DO play are important in their own right, but a real kick-ass girl who doesn't need rescuing or support at some point is so rare in this show. But this is a whole other discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mareike View Post
Ahahaha! Noticed that, too. Zechs is lucky to have a very steadfast, loving wife. I wish I could say the same for Noin's luck when it comes to her husband's... eccentricities. XD
And no, Zechs. Just. NO. Call yourself all the names you want just lay off the damn sparkles!!!
Noin just always gets the shaft end of things. She probably quite enjoyed it, when the Zechs-Doppelgänger (Dix-Neuf) was shot in the head. It's impossible that she didn't consider doing that herself at some point xD
I would, with a husband like that, and I don't care how pretty he thinks he is!
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Old 2011-07-18, 07:06   Link #3311
Elo the Blue
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Originally Posted by mirei View Post
"If Heero sees us, I'm a dead man." Love it~ C:

I don't mind Duo Sr. flirting with everyone, though he's already an old man. And, his narration is actually entertaining.
When isn't the God of Death entertaining?
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Old 2011-07-19, 01:31   Link #3312
Mareike
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Glad to hear that! If she had a sweet, Quatre- like personality, and was a nice little ojou-chan who plays the violin, she'd probably be unnoticeable and boring.
You've a point. And if being brazen/bratty underneath that seemingly gentle, harmless face is what Sumizawa's intended her to be, then he's doing a good job writing her. She could be the Dorothy/Mariemaia of this generation. (Though comparing her to Dorothy might be too much of a stretch. XD)

Quote:
Ooooh Thing is, I can't see Relena agreeing to it at all. She'd probably be all "sigh- not again, Duo..."
Despite all his interest in girls, I don't imagine he'd be very successful. They'd all turn him down every time- except Hilde, who for some reason would have him.
Well, until she got fed up too that is
Haha. Given Relena's personality, there's no doubt to that. Duo the Flirt. Hmm, it's a good thing that he got together with Hilde (even if they did break up in the end) because she really put him in his place. If it had been a different girl, IDK. He wouldn't have stood a chance in the first place, though, as you've said.

Quote:
It's pretty disturbing, actually. Both of them need to go see someone. At least Heero doesn't call himself creepy names yet.
True. If the whole MC debacle ends, I wonder if Zechs is going to take another name. >_> (Noin! Relena! OMG do something about Zechs! XD)

Quote:
Noin just always gets the shaft end of things. She probably quite enjoyed it, when the Zechs-Doppelgänger (Dix-Neuf) was shot in the head. It's impossible that she didn't consider doing that herself at some point xD
I would, with a husband like that, and I don't care how pretty he thinks he is!
Hmm, I read that she didn't even shed a tear at his funeral. I doubt she would have enjoyed it since he's still her blood relative, but she would have probably been relieved at the very least. Makes me wonder how it is between her and her family and why she dropped the -heim part. I really hope FT touches on her background.

As for Zechs... Can't be helped. Noin's always been generous towards him. >_> I mean even during those times when she disagreed with his decisions/actions, more often than not it all came down to... "ok, fine, whatever you want." Thank goodness she put her foot down by the end of EW.

Last edited by Mareike; 2011-07-19 at 03:34.
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Old 2011-07-19, 06:49   Link #3313
Leave The Pieces
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
this.
Though it happens in a lot of Gundam shows (actually pretty much all of them, with a few exceptions maybe), the girls always have to take a backseat to the guy's abilities/machinery- even if they start out as "strong pilots". And they think it's normal.
That might've been fine in the 70ies, but it isn't now. In recent years, how many females had piloting abilities equal to or superior to the guys and weren't just piloting for eye-candy reasons while actually being mainly complementary to the guys or fulfilling other roles?
Arguably none in Wing, unless you count Noin.
Of course the roles they DO play are important in their own right, but a real kick-ass girl who doesn't need rescuing or support at some point is so rare in this show. But this is a whole other discussion...
I don't think we're on the same page...?

Don't get me wrong, I think all the chicks in Wing are unquestionably badass. None of them can ever be considered a grunt and I never saw any of them taking a backseat for anyone. Boys or no boys, the show needed them. Lead character or supporting, they fulfilled their roles well.

Heero had a massive influence on Relena at first but later when she matured, she clearly had her own, untainted, opinion about the war. Hence, the naivete of her (early) ideals and beliefs. But her stance in Wing wasn't fixated on Heero's. She can and will do what she wants once she's made up her mind about it and no one could tell (or manipulate) her to do differently, unless they can prove her doing it another way really is the better option and it is in the best interest of everyone, too. As for Noin, sure, she was heaps attached to Zechs but with or without him, the show needed her. Relena needed her. The Gundam Pilots needed her. Lady Une started off as Treize's "submissive" right-hand woman but after her character development, she stood independently. And Sally, what a woman. She can actually enjoy a conversation with Wu Fei! Although Catherine was the only chick who didn't get "involved" in the war, Trowa owes her the most for his character development. And damn, Dorothy. Probably the only character I know who didn't even appear until a little later in the second half of her show and yet made quite a lasting impact, both on the characters and the story. I guess the only chick I can criticise is Hilde because she was the opposite of Une. She started off independently but later got fixated on Duo. Whether she redeemed herself or not by infiltrating Libra to help the Gundam Pilots is debatable.

Anyway, what am I babbling about here? My point is, a female character in a Gundam show doesn't need to pilot a suit (and be equally competent or better in it than the males) so that she can qualify to enter the badass department. I mean, I know a certain Gundam series or two that had female Gundam Pilots but man they pissed me off to death I think it's an insult to compare them to Wing chicks. But that doesn't mean it's okay to write or show the male characters mistreating them, either. One of my biggest frustrations over Wing is that the chicks were so badass, a lot of fans don't think certain guys in the show treated their female counterparts poorly. (Thank heavens there was that Teddy bear in the end, Heero redeemed himself. Who knew he could be sweet and thoughtful, eh? But Zechs... ack! That man was hopeless.) Some do notice the mistreatment but they're not bothered by it because to them, the chicks' badass-ness compensates for it anyway. Not to me, though. If the ladies were badass, all the more reason why the guys should treat them properly!

Quote:
but a real kick-ass girl who doesn't need rescuing or support at some point is so rare in this show
So I have to disagree with you here. The girls in Wing kick ass, figuratively speaking, of course. But that doesn't make Sumizawa writing the boys treating them poorly forgiveable to me. Also, every once in a while, a lot of the characters needed rescuing and support anyway. Male and female, both. Sally rescued a fellow female character once, Noin. Or was it the opposite? Une saved Treize from Libra's main canon, Duo rescued Heero from Sally (not that Heero needed it that time, Sally was harmless) and vice versa. And let's not forget the emotional stabilisation and support Trowa provided Quatre so that he'd come back to Team Kind-Hearted again. Which their shippers interpret as his way of showing his fellow Gundam Pilot his Tru Lurv.

Being rescued or getting support every now and then doesn't strip anyone off their badass-ness if they really are badass... which the Wing girls are.


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Originally Posted by Mareike View Post
Though comparing her to Dorothy might be too much of a stretch.
It is, hunny. It is.

Quote:
Given Relena's personality, there's no doubt to that.
Hmm. Honestly, I cannot see 2xR. I don't think Relena is Duo's type. He's quite the flirt but I doubt she's his type. I can see Trowa or Quatre falling for her... but not Duo. I dunno, I'm weird lol. Although, I understand why people would call it one-sided when they see the two being shipped to each other. I distinctly remember three occasions where they had an exchange. Duo did all of the talking and Relena was just like "Oh, cool." *turns to Heero* XD
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Old 2011-07-19, 08:51   Link #3314
Mareike
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Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces View Post
My point is, a female character in a Gundam show doesn't need to pilot a suit (and be equally competent or better in it than the males) so that she can qualify to enter the badass department. I mean, I know a certain Gundam series or two that had female Gundam Pilots but man they pissed me off to death I think it's an insult to compare them to Wing chicks. But that doesn't mean it's okay to write or show the male characters mistreating them, either. One of my biggest frustrations over Wing is that the chicks were so badass, a lot of fans don't think certain guys in the show treated their female counterparts poorly. (Thank heavens there was that Teddy bear in the end, Heero redeemed himself. Who knew he could be sweet and thoughtful, eh? But Zechs... ack! That man was hopeless.) Some do notice the mistreatment but they're not bothered by it because to them, the chicks' badass-ness compensates for it anyway. Not to me, though. If the ladies were badass, all the more reason why the guys should treat them properly!
This. Couldn't have said it any better.

I remember something about Heero's motto of living life in accordance with his feelings. I think that's why he is able show bits and pieces of affection towards Relena. He may not show it much, but at least he is able to act on them every once in a while. :3 As for Zechs... *kicks Zechs in the head* In Noin's own words, he's got too many secrets and he needs to open up. I think he's the type to show his care in VERY discrete ways. Or at least in thought. That's a really striking difference between those two ace pilots - Heero and Zechs. They've experienced all these tragedies in their lives but they handled their losses differently.

Quote:
The girls in Wing kick ass, figuratively speaking, of course. But that doesn't make Sumizawa writing the boys treating them poorly forgiveable to me. Also, every once in a while, a lot of the characters needed rescuing and support anyway. Male and female, both. Sally rescued a fellow female character once, Noin. Or was it the opposite? Une saved Treize from Libra's main canon, Duo rescued Heero from Sally (not that Heero needed it that time, Sally was harmless) and vice versa. And let's not forget the emotional stabilisation and support Trowa provided Quatre so that he'd come back to Team Kind-Hearted again. Which their shippers interpret as his way of showing his fellow Gundam Pilot his Tru Lurv.

Being rescued or getting support every now and then doesn't strip anyone off their badass-ness if they really are badass... which the Wing girls are.
Amen on this. And because of that same writing style, the girls' contributions have been taken for granted (if not utterly dismissed or overlooked) by some fans.

Also, it was Noin who rescued Sally. That scene was downright badass.

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Hmm. Honestly, I cannot see 2xR. I don't think Relena is Duo's type. He's quite the flirt but I doubt she's his type. I can see Trowa or Quatre falling for her... but not Duo. I dunno, I'm weird lol. Although, I understand why people would call it one-sided when they see the two being shipped to each other. I distinctly remember three occasions where they had an exchange. Duo did all of the talking and Relena was just like "Oh, cool." *turns to Heero* XD
That's because Duo would not stand a chance with her at all. Relena's too independent and reckless for someone like him. Not that Hilde hadn't been reckless, too. But Relena's in a class of her own. (Like Dorothy, haha. I do realize my mistake by saying Quatrine is this gen's Dorothy. XD)
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Old 2011-07-19, 11:04   Link #3315
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Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces View Post
I don't think we're on the same page...?
nope, we're having a massive misunderstanding xD
I didn't mean that Wing girls (or Gundam girls in general) aren't BADASS in the respective role they are fulfilling or because of their personalities or anything.
I was talking about the lack of competent female pilots (or competent pilots who only ever get crappy grunt suits, or the guy's leftovers) in Gundam shows, which is a completely different can of worms that I don't necessarily want to open...

But in no way would I dispute that Wing girls are badass and probably more important than the guys, actually- because let's face it, in real life it's the politicians and speakers that get things done, the soldiers are "just" the ones who take care of the practical execution.
So basically, I totally agree with your analysis of the girls, so I won't bore you with agreeing on everything in length

Let me just illustrate my original point for a second, bear with me:

Obviously badass doesn't need you in a pilot suit. What I don't particularly appreciate about Gundam in general is that female pilots are almost never on-par with their male counterparts in terms of ability AND suit- and usually it's not really relevant in the end that they are pilots, as the important fights are between guys.
Which is pretty misogynistic imo. Obviously it's a shounen- series, but somehow girl's skills are mostly presented as inferior, while they have other roles instead (which are equally or even more important though). And this irks me a little every time.

Of course there are a few exceptions but they are rare and far in between, and sure there are excellent pilots among the girls, but they rarely get to be in the spotlight.


---
Phew. That said, I actually just wanted to agree with what you said about the guys mistreating the girls
Not dispute that they aren't badass because they don't pilot anything, or that they need to be pilot to be badass. They don't. I was just criticizing the female pilots because I find it pretty irksome that they are 90% of the time inferior to the males, or don't exist.
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Old 2011-07-19, 14:29   Link #3316
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
It's pretty disturbing, actually. Both of them need to go see someone. At least Heero doesn't call himself creepy names yet.
He doesn't need to, others are doing it for him already. Seriously, "Princess Aurora"? I bet Zechs is behind it.

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Originally Posted by Mareike View Post
I remember something about Heero's motto of living life in accordance with his feelings. I think that's why he is able show bits and pieces of affection towards Relena. He may not show it much, but at least he is able to act on them every once in a while. :3 As for Zechs... *kicks Zechs in the head* In Noin's own words, he's got too many secrets and he needs to open up. I think he's the type to show his care in VERY discrete ways. Or at least in thought. That's a really striking difference between those two ace pilots - Heero and Zechs. They've experienced all these tragedies in their lives but they handled their losses differently.
It gets better. Noin and Zechs have been around each other for presumably more than 10 years, which means they ought to know each other by heart, yet the most "romantic" scene those two have in the series was that weird sword tapping in episode 4. Or perhaps Zechs not killing Noin when she guarded Peacemillion.
Heero and Relena on the other hand have known each other for hardly a year, yet half their time they spend saying each other's name or rescuing each other. Or leaving birthday gifts on shuttles.
As far as showing affection goes, Heero is leagues ahead of Zechs, which isn't really difficult but anyway. But maybe it's just Relena? After all, she was hugged by Zechs, whereas Noin was only helped out of her MS by him.

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
In recent years, how many females had piloting abilities equal to or superior to the guys and weren't just piloting for eye-candy reasons while actually being mainly complementary to the guys or fulfilling other roles?
Arguably none in Wing, unless you count Noin.


Are you serious? Une handed Wu Fei's butt to him in a crappy Leo (at first), Sally and Noin wrecked havoc on OZ in only two Pisces (or was it Cancer?) suits and Dorothy almost killed four Gundam Pilots with only Mobile Dolls. Even Hilde, a greenhorn in MS battle, managed to fend off MDs in a crappy Space Leo to allow Duo to infiltrate the Lunar base.
It's just that the women in Wing never got their hands on Tallgeeses or Gundams. But the fact that they were still able to keep up with the guys in grunt suits definitely bears testimony to their strength and skill. And let's not forget that the Gundam pilots are highly trained professionals.

Actually, we can make a comparison... Mei Lan and Zechs piloting the Tallgeese; the former managed to fight an entire battle before getting killed because she took a direct hit for her hubby, unlike the latter who was lucky to just get out of the fight without kicking the bucket. Okay, one can argue if that makes her more skilled but fact is, she lasted far longer than anyone else piloting that thing. And everyone else was male, older and a trained soldier. So yeah.

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Obviously badass doesn't need you in a pilot suit. What I don't particularly appreciate about Gundam in general is that female pilots are almost never on-par with their male counterparts in terms of ability AND suit- and usually it's not really relevant in the end that they are pilots, as the important fights are between guys.
Which is pretty misogynistic imo. Obviously it's a shounen- series, but somehow girl's skills are mostly presented as inferior, while they have other roles instead (which are equally or even more important though). And this irks me a little every time.
First of all, let's not confuse misogyny with sexism, please. The women in Gundam aren't hated, they just don't get the same treatment as the guys in terms of skill, importance or suits. Or lack of fanservice. >_>

Second, why don't you just say "Lunamaria" and be done with it?
A ZAFT redcoat, which supposedly means she belongs to the elite, who can't even hit the dang target practice let alone an escaping shuttle and deems it necessary to walk around in skimping miniskirts. And when everyone gets shiny, new Gundams, who's the odd one out? Of course her. All she got were Shinn's leftovers.

At least in Wing the women had other roles they had to fulfill. The only one of them who was an experienced MS pilot was Noin and I'll eat my shoe if she isn't considered on par with the guys. If you can fight 250 enemies in an outdated, space MS while the others prance around in Gundams, you rule.

Still, I agree. I'd like to see a woman among the main pilots sometime. Too much testosterone is getting boring.
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:05   Link #3317
Nishiio
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post



Are you serious? Une handed Wu Fei's butt to him in a crappy Leo (at first), Sally and Noin wrecked havoc on OZ in only two Pisces (or was it Cancer?) suits and Dorothy almost killed four Gundam Pilots with only Mobile Dolls. Even Hilde, a greenhorn in MS battle, managed to fend off MDs in a crappy Space Leo to allow Duo to infiltrate the Lunar base.
It's just that the women in Wing never got their hands on Tallgeeses or Gundams. But the fact that they were still able to keep up with the guys in grunt suits definitely bears testimony to their strength and skill. And let's not forget that the Gundam pilots are highly trained professionals.

Actually, we can make a comparison... Mei Lan and Zechs piloting the Tallgeese; the former managed to fight an entire battle before getting killed because she took a direct hit for her hubby, unlike the latter who was lucky to just get out of the fight without kicking the bucket. Okay, one can argue if that makes her more skilled but fact is, she lasted far longer than anyone else piloting that thing. And everyone else was male, older and a trained soldier. So yeah.
I agree. I really appreciated how almost all the women in Gundam Wing (except Relena, since she doesn't fight) were able to hold their own in combat and prove to be quite a challenge even to the gundam pilots. I hate damsel-in-distress characters and was grateful that GW hardly had any of those.

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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post

Still, I agree. I'd like to see a woman among the main pilots sometime. Too much testosterone is getting boring.
I also agree with this to some extent...though I admit I love the group of gundam boys as they are, haha.

I'm just afraid of some of things people already mentioned. I haven't seen TOO many mecha/action anime so when someone mentions "female pilot" I really just think of Asuka from Evangelion, whom I hated because 1) she's psycho and 2) she was just there for eyecandy. That's hardly what I want to see for a well-characterized female pilot.

Or, as you mentioned, we'll have a female pilot who's just completely incompetent. Don't even get me started on the characters of Gundam SEED, ugh...

Do the creators just have trouble writing female characters, I wonder? o__O
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:56   Link #3318
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
He doesn't need to, others are doing it for him already. Seriously, "Princess Aurora"? I bet Zechs is behind it.
I can sort of see them sitting together, in a dark corner of a shady bar, in a dead serious discussion if "Aurora Princess" sounds like a good codename, and if "Wind of Cyrene" is maybe too simple-sounding... sigh...

[QUOTEIkuzeMinna;3696480]As far as showing affection goes, Heero is leagues ahead of Zechs, which isn't really difficult but anyway. But maybe it's just Relena? After all, she was hugged by Zechs, whereas Noin was only helped out of her MS by him. [/QUOTE]

It's sort of sad when you are described as less affectionate than a guy who is arguably emotionally retarded himself... xD Poor Zechs. Well, at least he makes good-looking offspring, I guess...

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It's just that the women in Wing never got their hands on Tallgeeses or Gundams. But the fact that they were still able to keep up with the guys in grunt suits definitely bears testimony to their strength and skill. And let's not forget that the Gundam pilots are highly trained professionals.
That's sort of what I mean.. and sorry- the reason I didn't mention the other Wing girls explicitly, is because they only occasionally jump into a suit, but then normally do well, considering the suits are vastly inferior.

Girls in Gundam normally either:
- have very good skills, but usually no suits to match this/ just grunt suits (examples: Noin, Soma, Sochie, even Haman etc)
or
- no/lower skills, but superior suits (pretty much every girl in Seed/Destiny, can't think of any exceptions right now, Louise, Nina etc)

It's rare to find both (can't actually think of an example), which kind of means that they are never fully appreciated for what they can do.

To sum it up: I know there are a lot of skilled girls out there, the niggle is with how they never seem to get their hands on the superior equipment and consequently aren't in the spotlight, leaving their skills a little under appreciated.


Quote:
First of all, let's not confuse misogyny with sexism, please. The women in Gundam aren't hated, they just don't get the same treatment as the guys in terms of skill, importance or suits. Or lack of fanservice. >_>
Sorry, my mistake, non- native speaker here. Happens
Apart from that, yes, that's my point.
I guess it can't be avoided, as it's a shounen series (and to be fair guys get the same kind of treatment in pretty much every magical girl anime out there), but I'm sure the occasional good pilot with a good suit wouldn't hurt.
Some hopes for Quaterine.

Quote:
Second, why don't you just say "Lunamaria" and be done with it?
Ahaha! Not to single her out but... Yes, she's probably the worst offender. As much as I thought she wasn't that bad of a character, until the whole Shinn debacle... she is P A T H E T I C when it comes to her supposed "skills". It's a miracle ZAFT actually pays her.
Followed by Cagalli (Kira's leftovers, Mwu's leftovers... heck, she even willingly donates her new, shiny suit to Mwu), even Stellar is a big bundle of ineptitude.
Even Nina and Louise don't look as bad when compared to the Seed girls.
Prime examples of "good suit, but low skills"

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At least in Wing the women had other roles they had to fulfill. The only one of them who was an experienced MS pilot was Noin and I'll eat my shoe if she isn't considered on par with the guys. If you can fight 250 enemies in an outdated, space MS while the others prance around in Gundams, you rule.
I suggest giving the Seed girls suits to the Wing girls and see what happens (Noin would look good in Gaia). It's good to see them appreciated, because it's quite easy for them (and other kick-ass pilots in the series) to fall under the table, if you don't pay close attention to what they actually DO achieve in their crappysuits.

Quote:
Still, I agree. I'd like to see a woman among the main pilots sometime. Too much testosterone is getting boring.
I'm still hoping it'll happen one day. Then again, I hoped that when Soma came around, but alas, it wasn't meant to be.... she fancied being a moeblob instead. AGE isn't giving me much hope on that front either from the previews.... sigh- one day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nishiio
I'm just afraid of some of things people already mentioned. I haven't seen TOO many mecha/action anime so when someone mentions "female pilot" I really just think of Asuka from Evangelion, whom I hated because 1) she's psycho and 2) she was just there for eyecandy. That's hardly what I want to see for a well-characterized female pilot.

Or, as you mentioned, we'll have a female pilot who's just completely incompetent. Don't even get me started on the characters of Gundam SEED, ugh...

Do the creators just have trouble writing female characters, I wonder? o__O
Evangelion is a whole different story though. everyone was psycho there, and none of the pilots were really "strong" in the sense that Gundam pilots are. Asuka was supposedly an ace though, and I'm pretty sure it was somewhere mentioned that her 02 was the weak one of the bunch.
Arguably, Asuka appeared like a strong girl, until, well, she wasn't anymore. We all know the story That said, Shinji is hardly more likeable, Rei is just weird in a different way, and well. Basically, EVA is a bit special, I guess.
Can I ask, who did you like out of the EVA bunch?

I'm pretty sure that yes, Gundam writers so far have always had trouble writing girls, and I'm not sure what the cause of that is. Didn't one of them even mention this in an interview or something? I believe that was one of the staff for Wing, even...?!
As for good examples of female pilots- well, Klan from Macross comes to mind spontaneously. I will try to think of some more and edit.
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Old 2011-07-19, 21:28   Link #3319
Nishiio
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post

Evangelion is a whole different story though. everyone was psycho there, and none of the pilots were really "strong" in the sense that Gundam pilots are. Asuka was supposedly an ace though, and I'm pretty sure it was somewhere mentioned that her 02 was the weak one of the bunch.
Arguably, Asuka appeared like a strong girl, until, well, she wasn't anymore. We all know the story That said, Shinji is hardly more likeable, Rei is just weird in a different way, and well. Basically, EVA is a bit special, I guess.
Can I ask, who did you like out of the EVA bunch?

I'm pretty sure that yes, Gundam writers so far have always had trouble writing girls, and I'm not sure what the cause of that is. Didn't one of them even mention this in an interview or something? I believe that was one of the staff for Wing, even...?!
As for good examples of female pilots- well, Klan from Macross comes to mind spontaneously. I will try to think of some more and edit.
Ah, my bad. I've only really seen Gundam Wing, Gundam SEED, and Gundam 00 for mecha series (and while I'm extremely fond of GW, I'm not fans of the other two, especially not SEED). I guess I was just trying to think of another "pilot" female character, haha.

Who did I LIKE out of the Eva bunch?? *tears hair out* I only watched it because it was considered a "classic" and I'm not afraid to say that I hated the characters and the story. x___x I apologize if I offend any Eva fans here but it was one of the most frustrating and unsatisfying anime I've ever watched...

Ahem. My rant is done. Back on topic.

That would make sense. I'll try to watch Macross sometime. =)
Maybe the writers/director didn't think it would be necessary to develop the females very much? I can understand that it's an action series and you want the focus to be on the wars, the battles, and the gundams...but the guys were written well. Would it hurt to hire a few female writers for perspective?
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:12   Link #3320
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
As for good examples of female pilots- well, Klan from Macross comes to mind spontaneously.
This! And the character she was an homage to, Milia from the original Macross, who is 100% badass for sure both before and after she meets her hubby Max. Macross is just kinda awesome for female characters in general.

Also, we need to keep in mind.. Gundam is a shounen series. It's made for boys to sell toys to boys. Even though there are major female demographics as with most any shounen series, they are aiming things towards primarily boys. There's a reason MOST shounen series don't have women as their primary protagonists. A female main character pilot in a main series feature isn't going to happen anytime soon, for that reason- but as we've mentioned with SEED and 00 and in WING ITSELF there have already been female pilots, but they will never be the main focus.

AC has already had one female main protagonist pilot, though: Tiel Noembreux.

(Though yes I think Japanese male writers in general have issues writing women but that's a rant for another thread :x)
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