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Old 2011-07-19, 09:43   Link #121
james0246
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Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
Wooow so much hate. Reminds me of comic book guy from the simpsons "worst episode ever." Kishi owes you nothing. He created a pretty fantastic story and if it doesnt go the way you want go write fanfiction or better yet your own story.
That's not completely true. I am a consumer of Naruto (I've bought all the manga), so I do feel my criticism and complaints are more than justified, and due to the 100s of dollars I've spent I do feel Kishimoto owes me something (I would preffer a more dynamic story, but I'd settle for a Naruto x Hanabi ending ).
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Old 2011-07-19, 10:02   Link #122
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Most mangeka's should just write a basic outline of where they would like the story to end, like JK rowling did for the potter series. So when an author dies atleast his work can be finished, when an author is being an ass (like Togashi Yoshihiro) they can just sack him and let someone else continue drawing and the like. And it would provide for a more coherent story wich helps the author to focus more on character development and stuff.
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Old 2011-07-19, 10:18   Link #123
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Nintendo View Post
not to beat a dead horse or anything, but ill agree with Nobodyman9 on the dragonball. Goku was always said to be a low level fighter who will not be anything and worked very hard pushing himself far to become greatness.
Yeah, until it was revealed that he was one of the few select warriors who emerges every 1000 years to fulfill a legend that makes him the strongest being in the universe. Truly, Goku was a hero who never had anything special going for him.

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
This "chosen by chance" concept is so vague it could apply to basically anyone. Was Light chosen because he was the one who happened to pick up the deathnote? Was Nausicaa chosen because she had the innate ability to speak with all forms of life? Was Bruce Wayne chosen because his millionaire parents died? Was Superman chosen because he was the last of an alien race? Was Billy Peltzer chosen because his dad happened to pick up the Mogwai in the shop?

These are all protagonists, and yes, sometimes extraordinary things do happen to them, but that's what makes the story interesting. And while some of these characters have powerful backing them up, that's not what defines them. They still had to struggle and work on their own for what they attained. Whereas Naruto, over the course of the last 2-3 years, has been given pretty much every single advantage in genetics, heritage and status.
Sorry but please explain how did Superman work or struggle for anything? Just being an alien gives him the powers of a god. Batman trained very hard yes, but let's face it, his real power is being filthy rich which gives him basically unlimited access to crime fighting gadgets/technology/deus ex machina. Light was brilliant, but that still doesn't change the fact he has a notebook that can kill anyone he wants.

And Bill Peltzer? He's the standard for what a heroic character is supposed be? Such a shame that Kishimoto is not able to live up the epic heroism found in Gremlins

Note: I'm not saying any of these are bad characters. Just that there's no set standard on what makes a protagonist likable or believable, it's completely subjective. The only thing that separates Naruto from these characters is that he is part of prophecy. If you don't like that, fine but are you really saying that's the premise on how a character's quality should be judged?

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As I said before, whether he gives in to the desires of fans or editors or if he just does whatever he wants, it's still entirely his fault since it's his manga.
Agreed. It's his story and he's responsible for making it as entertaining as he can. However, he is not responsible for pleasing everyone. There's simply no way anyone can do that.
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Old 2011-07-19, 11:53   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, until it was revealed that he was one of the few select warriors who emerges every 1000 years to fulfill a legend that makes him the strongest being in the universe. Truly, Goku was a hero who never had anything special going for him.
Until it was revealed every Saiyan can do that. And every Saiyan did start doing that. The only one you can really make that argument for is Gohan, what with his hidden potential and all.
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Old 2011-07-19, 12:30   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, until it was revealed that he was one of the few select warriors who emerges every 1000 years to fulfill a legend that makes him the strongest being in the universe. Truly, Goku was a hero who never had anything special going for him.


but he also worked every hard to reach that goal. He didnt just wake up one day and go...hey i think ill push myself to 10 billion power level. He just wanted to be the best fighter ever and battle strong people.

naruto is different because while he does work hard and trains hard too. He was very lucky to have genes from two super great ninjas. One who was said to be a god who pretty much beat madara with minimal effort(even though minato said madara seen though everything) and his mom who is known to have 50 great seals and a super long life....which will no doubt help naruto as they said hes shorting his lifespan over and over again.....but then his mom has super long life.

i like the manga, dont get me wrong. One thing i dont like are things being established, then tossed out the window when the writer changes his mind on the fly because it makes things more interesting.

If kimish kept it so that naruto was just a kid and happened to be the 9 tails host and his mom and dad happened to be normal everyday ninja that happened to be best friends with the 4th.....it would have been pretty badass because then we can all go...see that, you can change fate, he was labeled a loser since the get go and worked hard to be boss of the 9 tails power. Now when its brought up it turns out....he controls the 9 tails? well no duh he was raised for it. takes away some of the badassness i believe.
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:23   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Sorry but please explain how did Superman work or struggle for anything? Just being an alien gives him the powers of a god. Batman trained very hard yes, but let's face it, his real power is being filthy rich which gives him basically unlimited access to crime fighting gadgets/technology/deus ex machina. Light was brilliant, but that still doesn't change the fact he has a notebook that can kill anyone he wants.
I'll go into this more later in my post, but one key difference between these characters and Naruto is that, even with these privileges granted to them, they still face hardships and real challenges in the pursuit of their goals. Also, no one ever built them up or designated them as saviors from birth.
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And Bill Peltzer? He's the standard for what a heroic character is supposed be? Such a shame that Kishimoto is not able to live up the epic heroism found in Gremlins
My point was that james' concept of being chosen by chance can apply to almost any protagonist that has something weird happen to them, regardless if they're a super-powered magic ninja or just an ordinary guy. It's funny how you're so quick to dismiss his "heroism" though, because there was much more tenstion in Billy Peltzer's struggle than there has been in anything Naruto's done for the last 2-3 years, at least.
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Note: I'm not saying any of these are bad characters. Just that there's no set standard on what makes a protagonist likable or believable, it's completely subjective. The only thing that separates Naruto from these characters is that he is part of prophecy. If you don't like that, fine but are you really saying that's the premise on how a character's quality should be judged?
A character simply needs to be sympathetic or appeal to some sense of humanity from the audience for us to like them. People like an underdog, and people naturally like a character who fights for the right cause, or is at least good-natured. But this doesn't apply to every character. Is Light a sympathetic or noble character? No, but he does appeal to the inner demon in all of us, just as most villains do.

But in any case, a key aspect of any protagonist that makes them likeable or believable is vulnerability. The entertainment value of a story comes from the tension created by the character being challenged by an intimidating and powerful opposing force. But that's not to say that a character can't have some privileges. After all, they have to have something that makes them interesting or give them an advantage. However, you can't go to the opposite extreme. An extremely privileged and invulnerable character is a very boring thing, so there needs to be a good balance.

Naruto, over the last 2-3 years, has become an extremely over-privileged character. He's turned out to be the son of the 4th Hokage (which makes it all the more natural and likely that he will be Hokage), a descendant of the Uzumakis who are pros at controlling the tailed beasts, and, apparently, ever since his birth, everyone's designated him as the savior of the ninja world (No one ever designated Superman or Batman as a hero).

But the worst part of all this is that it completely contradicts the underdog theme that Kishi had going in part 1. That, despite what Naruto said in his fight against Neji, the only reason Naruto has succeeded is apparently because of his genetic heritage.
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Old 2011-07-19, 18:50   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
But the worst part of all this is that it completely contradicts the underdog theme that Kishi had going in part 1. That, despite what Naruto said in his fight against Neji, the only reason Naruto has succeeded is apparently because of his genetic heritage.
Not true, Naruto took after his mother who was not talented and had to work hard. The only thing he got from his father is his looks.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:29   Link #128
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Not true, Naruto took after his mother who was not talented and had to work hard. The only thing he got from his father is his looks.
I am not sure where it said she worked hard. Just that she had a unique ninjutsu style and personality that Naruto seems to have inherited. She was from the famous Uzumaki clan. She was blessed with special chakra. Special chakra that gave her super human constitution and a potentially long life span. She was a genius in sealing techniques from a clan that were masters in them. She was brought to Konoha to become the Kyuubi host because she was special. Kumo tried to kidnap her because she was special.

And Naruto inherited a lot more from his father as we are finding out. Certainly more than looks. Hell, he doesn't even look like his father that much. His father was a pretty boy. Naruto is average looking.

You have to be kidding if you don't think Naruto hit the genetic jackpot. He was bred to be great and destined to be the chosen one. The peasant who beat Kiba with a fart was a different character. That guy prattled on about overcoming the odds. This guy preaches to us how he is Jesus and will save the world by himself with his ridiculous super powers.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:59   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I am not sure where it said she worked hard. Just that she had a unique ninjutsu style and personality that Naruto seems to have inherited. She was from the famous Uzumaki clan. She was blessed with special chakra. Special chakra that gave her super human constitution and a potentially long life span. She was a genius in sealing techniques from a clan that were masters in them. She was brought to Konoha to become the Kyuubi host because she was special. Kumo tried to kidnap her because she was special.

And Naruto inherited a lot more from his father as we are finding out. Certainly more than looks. Hell, he doesn't even look like his father that much. His father was a pretty boy. Naruto is average looking.

You have to be kidding if you don't think Naruto hit the genetic jackpot. He was bred to be great and destined to be the chosen one. The peasant who beat Kiba with a fart was a different character. That guy prattled on about overcoming the odds. This guy preaches to us how he is Jesus and will save the world by himself with his ridiculous super powers.
The only thing special about the Uzumaki clan is their chakra affinity with the Kyuubi.

I don't ever recall them calling his mother a genius of any sort. She had a major inferiority complex and was always out to prove herself, much like Naruto was. She also made Minato her rival because he himself was a genius, and just like Naruto falling for Sasuke, she eventually fell for Minato. lol *cough*

Unless of course you want to point out specific pages where they call Kushina this uber goddess genius that spam out godly seals.

And no one ever really commented on Minato's appearance, only that he was a genius and that was it.

Jiraiya and Tsunade themselves said that Naruto took after Kushina's personality and abilities while he had his father's looks.
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Old 2011-07-19, 23:04   Link #130
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There is poor information about Kushina's skills. We have better information about Minato's. Don't forget how Kishi deals with kunoichis, so i think that for Kishi's standards, Kushina was above the average
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Old 2011-07-20, 00:34   Link #131
james0246
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
The only thing special about the Uzumaki clan is their chakra affinity with the Kyuubi.
It's not really an affinity; it’s more the simple fact that Uzumaki chakra is "special". Consequently, an Uzumaki can handle the Bijuu chakra far better than other shinobi.

(Strangely enough (or not strangely at all), Madara also has "special" chakra...)

Truthfully, I do not care that Naruto has a genetic legacy of greatness; there are plenty of Shounen characters with such a legacy. And, I do not care that Naruto has prophecies foretelling his potential. Rather, what makes Naruto's accomplishments so sad is the fact that the 2 times he really needed to accomplish a goal by himself, his parents stepped in to solve the problem for him. I speak of course of Minato appearing to stop the release of the Kyuubi, and later Kushina appearing to help Naruto defeat the Kyuubi. Both instances would have been massive character development, as Naruto would have to struggle to find the inner strength and will to defeat the Kyuubi, but both moments were wasted, and his parents take nearly all the credit. It's a shame.

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Old 2011-07-20, 01:00   Link #132
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The Uzimaki clan is said to be descendent of the sage of the sixth paths, not in the least bit special no.....
Though Kushina's skills are up for debate, Minato did learn seals from her thus we can assume she's pretty good at them.
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Old 2011-07-20, 01:32   Link #133
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Chapter 548 discussion thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2011-07-20, 01:51   Link #134
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The Uzimaki clan is said to be descendent of the sage of the sixth paths, not in the least bit special no.....
If i think about, i could easily say that Uzumakis are more close to the young son of the sage than Senjus. Uzumakis were known by the same qualities from the young son. Tsunade isn't just a Senju but an Uzumaki also. Perhaps that's the reason why she can keep her henge for so much time and she is capable to use Sozousaisei as her grandmother (an Uzumaki) did too.

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Though Kushina's skills are up for debate, Minato did learn seals from her thus we can assume she's pretty good at them.
I think that we must measure her skills with facts:
1. Uzumakis were highly specialized and Kushina taught Minato, who was already an elite Ninja. Remember Orochi's surprise when he saw Kakashi performing a sealing jutsu on Sasuke's cursed seal. Naruto's seal was praised as a high-level sealing jutsu.
2. Kushina was able to survive Ninetails extraction. Gaara and every host died in the process. That's an indicator about how high was her stamina (which is related to Sage's young son).
3. Let's face it... in a ninja village the elite ninjas don't marry the next door girl. Just like royalty they choose carefully. Remember Hashirama and Mito's marriage.
4. Tailed Beast were the ultimate weapon, Kushina replaced Mito as the new ninetail host. Remember how much trouble was for every village to find those hosts and how many candidates died in the process.

Sinceraly, it's more easy to find facts to defend Kushina's status than the main heroine of the manga
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Old 2011-07-20, 04:05   Link #135
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Still based on assumption, just because she survived an extraction does not mean she is also a strong and capable fighter just as knowing seals which was a village tradition does not make her strong.
She was 100% Uzumaki, a clan known for their strong bloodline which was the reason she became the new host. Those with this bloodline have a unique and potent chakra which could have extended her life beyond most.
So what we know and seen of her can all be explained by her origins (the uzumaki clan and their bloodline).
And her marriage is explained by them falling in love, though yes it was a potent mix, but it was never said to be manditory.
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Old 2011-07-20, 04:24   Link #136
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That's not completely true. I am a consumer of Naruto (I've bought all the manga), so I do feel my criticism and complaints are more than justified, and due to the 100s of dollars I've spent I do feel Kishimoto owes me something (I would preffer a more dynamic story, but I'd settle for a Naruto x Hanabi ending ).
I think that's a strange point of view, at least when it comes to written or drawn stories. Whether you decide to buy a series and support the author or not is your choice, but expecting the author to take in input from complaints is pretty stupid. The author has his own vision of the series and his own story to tell, changing the way he writes or rewriting the direction of the story based on "suggestions" would go against what he's trying to do. I would question his ability as an author if he actually did that.
And about the "Kishimoto owes me something" part, no, he doesn't owe you anything. The reason why you buy a manga is because you enjoy reading it. If you're not enjoying the story anymore, then don't buy it anymore. There's nothing else to it, really.
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Old 2011-07-20, 04:37   Link #137
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I think that's a strange point of view, at least when it comes to written or drawn stories. Whether you decide to buy a series and support the author or not is your choice, but expecting the author to take in input from complaints is pretty stupid. The author has his own vision of the series and his own story to tell, changing the way he writes or rewriting the direction of the story based on "suggestions" would go against what he's trying to do. I would question his ability as an author if he actually did that.
We're not telling him to write it the way we want him to, we just want him to write a good story. Kishi is not writing a good story.
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And about the "Kishimoto owes me something" part, no, he doesn't owe you anything. The reason why you buy a manga is because you enjoy reading it. If you're not enjoying the story anymore, then don't buy it anymore. There's nothing else to it, really.
Considering he's taking up a slot in a magazine with limited spaces that could be used by another artist, yes, he does owe it to pretty much everyone to write as good a manga as he can.
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Old 2011-07-20, 05:51   Link #138
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We're not telling him to write it the way we want him to, we just want him to write a good story. Kishi is not writing a good story.
Then stop reading it. The author is not going to (or at least should not, in my opinion) stop writing the way he does because someone in his audience isn't enjoying it anymore.

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Considering he's taking up a slot in a magazine with limited spaces that could be used by another artist, yes, he does owe it to pretty much everyone to write as good a manga as he can.
That doesn't even make sense. How many manga magazines are out there? I'm sure you will be able to find another manga series worth reading without it being hosted on Shonen Jump.
And of course the fact that Naruto "is wasting one of SJ's slots" is just your opinion, a lot of people obviously disagree with you.
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