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Old 2011-07-19, 20:08   Link #14901
GundamFan0083
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This story is still under the radar, which is unfortunate considering the scale of the operation and the implications.

Obama-Contra

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...ama-Contra.htm
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Old 2011-07-19, 20:38   Link #14902
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
That depends on the perspective on what is a legal blockade.

On one side, they see the Israeli navy doing a good job stopping a group of trouble makers. On the other side, they see the Israeli navy being unjust to stop an innocent group delivering humanitarian aid.
Since when do humanitarian aid consist of mortar bombs?
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Old 2011-07-19, 21:28   Link #14903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
This story is still under the radar, which is unfortunate considering the scale of the operation and the implications.

Obama-Contra

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...ama-Contra.htm
you can't serious in trying to equate this with iran-contra. Iran-Contra was a illegal operation to sell weapons to Iran to fund a insurgency in Nicaragua. With Top Presidential Official lying to Congress.

Regan was just so convenient with his "I can't Remeber" Alzheimer.

That Creep Oliver North should be rotting in prison except Bush Sr need him to keep his mouth shut because he up to neck in it.

So unless you are saying the Obama admin is trying arm a insurgency in Central/South America. This is not even close to the same seriousness.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:35   Link #14904
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
you can't serious in trying to equate this with iran-contra. Iran-Contra was a illegal operation to sell weapons to Iran to fund a insurgency in Nicaragua. With Top Presidential Official lying to Congress.

Regan was just so convenient with his "I can't Remeber" Alzheimer.

That Creep Oliver North should be rotting in prison except Bush Sr need him to keep his mouth shut because he up to neck in it.

So unless you are saying the Obama admin is trying arm a insurgency in Central/South America. This is not even close to the same seriousness.
Oh, and the drug-war in Mexico isn't an insurgency?
Really?

That's news to me.
30,000 dead sure seems like an insurgency...

Considering Obama made the statement that 90% of all guns used by the drug cartels come from the US, it is poetic justice that IT IS HIS administration's BATFE selling the drug dealers the guns.

US border agents have died over this nonsense from Obama's BATFE, no Americans died as a result of Iran-Contra.
So in a sense you're right Xellos, comparing the two isn't fair since the selling of guns to Drug-Dealers who cross our border with impunity and have killed thousands in Mexico is far worse.

I realize this makes the Obama administration look really bad, but facts are facts and this administration is responsible for the deaths related to these weapons.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:55   Link #14905
ganbaru
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Syrian military assaults intensify on Homs, 16 killed
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76F26I20110720
The massace is still ongoing for 5 months I belive...
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Old 2011-07-20, 00:18   Link #14906
Vexx
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This "Fast and Furious" operation can't really be laid at Obama's feet. The BATF has a very long history of many administrations of being a bunch of incompetent thugs and idiots (yes, I said that out loud). Now, if the Justice department and Obama's administration try to sidestep/cover up... then my aggravation for *that* is up. I already view the Obama administration as just "center right lite" as it is.
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Old 2011-07-20, 00:47   Link #14907
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This "Fast and Furious" operation can't really be laid at Obama's feet. The BATF has a very long history of many administrations of being a bunch of incompetent thugs and idiots (yes, I said that out loud). Now, if the Justice department and Obama's administration try to sidestep/cover up... then my aggravation for *that* is up. I already view the Obama administration as just "center right lite" as it is.

This will probably be laid at Eric Holder's feet.
Even if he didn't know about it, the BATFE is still his responsibility, sucks I know, but unfortunately that's the price of power.

Oh, and you are absolutely correct about the ATF.
They've been a blight on the US government for years.
Remember this little goodie from the 1990s.
The so called "Good ol boy round-up" where ATF agents dressed up like KKK members and had a dreadful sign at the entrance to the event.
From the Justice department's own online files:

http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9603/exec.htm

To really make your blood boil scroll down that report to the "racist signs" under "1. Substantiated allegations."

Yeah, our tax dollars at work.
Maybe with all this talk of cutting spending it might be time to ax this prohibition-era agency?
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Old 2011-07-20, 01:21   Link #14908
Vexx
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yeah, our tax dollars at work.
Maybe with all this talk of cutting spending it might be time to ax this prohibition-era agency?
I think both left and right should be able to agree on that
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Old 2011-07-20, 02:32   Link #14909
Jinto
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
US border agents have died over this nonsense from Obama's BATFE, no Americans died as a result of Iran-Contra.
You don't try to imply that a US border agent (US American) is worth more than a nicaraguan or iranian person, do you? That would be kinda arrogant (almost racist nationalistic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I realize this makes the Obama administration look really bad, but facts are facts and this administration is responsible for the deaths related to these weapons.
What I still don't understand is, how this is going to help the gun owner lobby in the USA. If anything this proofs that strict gun control is neccessary. In this case it doesn't really matter who is the bad example (whether it is a government agency or a private person), the conclusion will be the same - stricter gun control (this time not exclusively for private individuals but government agencies too).

And I think this is the reason why this is under the radar. While it is something that can be used against the Obama administration its also bad for the cause of the "conservative/right" gun owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This "Fast and Furious" operation can't really be laid at Obama's feet. The BATF has a very long history of many administrations of being a bunch of incompetent thugs and idiots (yes, I said that out loud). Now, if the Justice department and Obama's administration try to sidestep/cover up... then my aggravation for *that* is up. I already view the Obama administration as just "center right lite" as it is.
With basically the same type of puppet masters, uh excuse me lobby group support, you will get basically the same administration no matter whom you vote. The differences are merely in some baggy pseudo core competencies with which a party tries to define itself apart from the other one.

Still, I think these lobby groups are not the only ones to blame. My heretical thesis is, that voters naturally lean center right on average, so a party that ignores this is going to shoot itself. An individual voter's ideas might be progressive but in the end political reality shows that voters prefer the egoistic approach (preserving as much benefits as possible for themselves) - in this regard the average voter is completely in line with the super wealthy elite. This is why I think it is not just the influential lobby groups but it is also this nation's egoism that causes the nation to have the government that it has now.
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Old 2011-07-20, 05:14   Link #14910
ganbaru
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Iran says shot down a U.S. spy plane over nuclear site
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J1WP20110720
Wondering if it's true...
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Old 2011-07-20, 06:06   Link #14911
JC...
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It's probably true, the US always claims "Technical failures" are the reason their aircraft are damaged/destroyed, look at the Bin Laden raid and past reports.
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Old 2011-07-20, 07:35   Link #14912
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Originally Posted by JC... View Post
It's probably true, the US always claims "Technical failures" are the reason their aircraft are damaged/destroyed, look at the Bin Laden raid and past reports.
has there been a U.S confirmation that they lost a UAV ?
how does the fact that the U.S usually claims loss of aircraft as "Technical failures" also translates into the current Iranian claims being true ?
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Old 2011-07-20, 07:58   Link #14913
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by JC... View Post
It's probably true, the US always claims "Technical failures" are the reason their aircraft are damaged/destroyed, look at the Bin Laden raid and past reports.
Maybe, but given the issues than they had developping thoses UAV, a ''technical failures'' would be credible.
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Old 2011-07-20, 10:32   Link #14914
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
You don't try to imply that a US border agent (US American) is worth more than a nicaraguan or iranian person, do you? That would be kinda arrogant (almost racist nationalistic).
To an American it is true. And our own Government acknowledges such thinking as well, based on the extent the Government will go to protect its' citizens abroad.
Quote:
What I still don't understand is, how this is going to help the gun owner lobby in the USA. If anything this proofs that strict gun control is neccessary. In this case it doesn't really matter who is the bad example (whether it is a government agency or a private person), the conclusion will be the same - stricter gun control (this time not exclusively for private individuals but government agencies too).

And I think this is the reason why this is under the radar. While it is something that can be used against the Obama administration its also bad for the cause of the "conservative/right" gun owners.
Sorry, but stricter gun laws than we have on the books are not the answer. We already have thousands of gun laws in existence. Enforcement of those current laws is far more realistic in keeping people who don't have the right to guns away from them, than putting more restrictions on the average citizen.

Infact, I'm waiting for more cases to hit the Supreme Court to destroy some of the current Gun Laws that I view as Unconstitutional.
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Old 2011-07-20, 11:05   Link #14915
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
You don't try to imply that a US border agent (US American) is worth more than a nicaraguan or iranian person, do you? That would be kinda arrogant (almost racist nationalistic).
The Contras were rebels trying to overthrow a dictator.
You know, like what Obama is doing with the rebels in Libya.
We're trying to support freedom fighters.

Drug Cartels aren't freedom fighters, they're organized criminals, and that's the difference.
It wasn't a matter of whose life was worth more, it was a matter of trying to help people in the case of the Contras, verses a rogue US agency trying to justify its existence by selling to criminals who use terroristic methods.
ATF was trying to create a problem(sell assault rifles to criminals), to offer a solution (more gun control), to further their agenda (a larger budget for their agency to enforce the new laws).

Quote:
What I still don't understand is, how this is going to help the gun owner lobby in the USA. If anything this proofs that strict gun control is neccessary. In this case it doesn't really matter who is the bad example (whether it is a government agency or a private person), the conclusion will be the same - stricter gun control (this time not exclusively for private individuals but government agencies too).
Actually it proves the opposite since the hoplophobes in this country are trying to say that the Mexican Drug Cartels are arming themselves with guns bought from US citizens.
What this situation proves is that the Mexican Cartel guns aren't supplied by civilian gun-dealers, they're being supplied by the BATFE so no measure of gun-control would stop them from acquiring weapons.
On top of that, Mexico has a total ban on private ownership of guns, yet the Cartels are better armed then the cops and equal to the military.
Mexico is a prime example of the total failure of gun-control.

I also don't see this as a "right-left" issue.
Many Democrats own military style handguns and rifles in this country.
Liberals in Colorado--and many western states--are of the "gun-totting" variety so this is an American verses Anti-American issue since the 2nd Amendment is not solely a conservative right but rather one shared by all citizens.
I'm not conversative--believe it or not--but I am very much in support of our hoplite society.

Quote:
And I think this is the reason why this is under the radar. While it is something that can be used against the Obama administration its also bad for the cause of the "conservative/right" gun owners.
It's under the RADAR because the US media is pro-gun-control/hoplophobic, and have been since the 1960s.
The media has hyped up stories and events that favor more violations of the 2nd amendment while they downplay or totally ignore stories that support the right to keep and bear arms.
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Old 2011-07-20, 11:39   Link #14916
james0246
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The Contras were rebels trying to overthrow a dictator.
You know, like what Obama is doing with the rebels in Libya.
We're trying to support freedom fighters.
I don't really care about the issue you are trying to discussion (I give you points for using hoplophobia in a sentence...though I've never once believed America or its media is hoplophobic), but I have to point out that the Contras were not simply rebels, but were terrorists whose main method of warfare was to indiscriminately attack civilians, often killing the men and raping the women, not to mention destroying non-military/government property, etc. That is not to say the Sandinista government was any better (they were also plagued with human rights violations), but the Contras are not really comparable to the current Libyan rebel forces (most of the pro-Contra nonsense was developed by the Reagan administration, who simply wished to combat the pro-Socialist/USSR Sandinista government).
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Old 2011-07-20, 11:59   Link #14917
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I don't really care about the issue you are trying to discussion (I give you points for using hoplophobia in a sentence...though I've never once believed America or its media is hoplophobic), but I have to point out that the Contras were not simply rebels, but were terrorists whose main method of warfare was to indiscriminately attack civilians, often killing the men and raping the women, not to mention destroying non-military/government property, etc. That is not to say the Sandinista government was any better (they were also plagued with human rights violations), but the Contras are not really comparable to the current Libyan rebel forces (most of the pro-Contra nonsense was developed by the Reagan administration, who simply wished to combat the pro-Socialist/USSR Sandinista government).
That is true.
However, I was trying to give Obama a pass on this considering that the Libyan rebels are backed by Al Qaeda.
That's why I was pointing out the Contras as freedom fighters verses just plain organized crime like the Mexican Cartels.

Nevertheless, no matter how you slice it, the BATFE has been engaging in unethical and criminal behavior for many decades now (since 1968 and the NFA of that year) and they need to be abolished.
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Old 2011-07-20, 13:35   Link #14918
james0246
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^None of this is an actual reflection on Obama. The Bureau of Alcohol et al is responsible, not Obama. This is not like the Iran-Contra affair where top advisors to Reagan, and possibly even Reagan, was involved in the illegal sale of firearms to non-allies in order to fund terrorist. This is a mistake. A stupid tragic mistake that has cost innocent lives (and a few American lives), but a mistake none the less. Whether BATFE should be abolished is an interesting question, but it is a question seperate from your article which lays the blame at Obama's feet rather than at the head of BATFE.
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Old 2011-07-20, 14:01   Link #14919
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Still, I think these lobby groups are not the only ones to blame. My heretical thesis is, that voters naturally lean center right on average, so a party that ignores this is going to shoot itself. An individual voter's ideas might be progressive but in the end political reality shows that voters prefer the egoistic approach (preserving as much benefits as possible for themselves) - in this regard the average voter is completely in line with the super wealthy elite. This is why I think it is not just the influential lobby groups but it is also this nation's egoism that causes the nation to have the government that it has now.
Indeed, and that is troubling. Alexander Tytler once wrote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."

This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing... though I think times have changed a bit. In his day we would have seen a dictatorship. In our day, we'll see 80s-cyberpunk style megacorps.
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Old 2011-07-20, 14:39   Link #14920
Anh_Minh
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Indeed, and that is troubling. Alexander Tytler once wrote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
I can't help but think that's an optimistic view. I mean, sure, the voters in this case are short-sighted. But at least they're looking out for their own self-interest. I harbor a suspicion that voters are actually more interested in pushing their neighbors down than in pulling themselves up.
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