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Old 2011-07-19, 21:53   Link #23301
Kealym
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I support Fukuin having male kids on the logic some have stated that it'd have been ridiculous for nobody to question Kanon if it was a strictly all-girl place. I think ... we may only be having this discussion because of happenstance on Ryukishi's part.

Other off-duty servants have been mentioned since the beginning, but we had no idea what gender they were. The only female servants on duty during the conference were Shannon and Kumasawa, who's only part-time and had been there forever. Anyways, so I think he got to Requiem and decided to show us other servants, which ended up being the Meido's of Purgatory, which I saw partly as fanservice, partly as continuing to show the origins of Yasu/Beatrice's magical compendium (i.e, she based her servants on the other snobby girls who worked with her), and there was no room to show a male Fukuin servant, similarly, into the scenario. Whose heads would he have copy+pasta'd for them?

Um ... on Jessica's surprise at a boy servant, it's possible that, despite being a co-ed orphanage, in general, girls would work harder to achieve the grades / behavior that put them into the running for the position. This could go farther and say that Jessica had seen male Fukuin servants before, but Kanon was the first she'd seen since she started, y'know, noticing boys.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:02   Link #23302
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IIRC, in Episode 3, Battler mentions having had a crush on Shannon ("Goodbye, my first love") right after learning George was dating Shannon.
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Old 2011-07-20, 00:21   Link #23303
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
IIRC, in Episode 3, Battler mentions having had a crush on Shannon ("Goodbye, my first love") right after learning George was dating Shannon.
That sounds a bit like unfair evidence, was there a serious foreshadowing(I don't remember the exact context because I kinda ignored it) that Battler truly loved her, and it wasn't just his typical dolty personality that sort of made him like Shannon? Because when I first read this, I just figured it's in Battler to be a jokster like that, and he may have had a crush on Shannon but nothing to where he promised to be her knight in shining armor(and really meant it).

This is of course, not a complaint in case it sounds like it.
Just wondering if this can qualify as a clue, because in order for it to be important, one would have to actually read the story backwards to find it's meaning, maybe this is just me talking but shouldn't you be able to deduce it all without having to do that?

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Old 2011-07-20, 09:37   Link #23304
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Given that there is absolutely no romantic subtext whatsoever between Battler and Shannon in the first four episodes, I would probably say so. You could guess it, and people sort of did (Pony Theory, anyone?), but you'd have to extract it from the assumption that Shannon = Beatrice, then that Meta-Beatrice vs. Battler = Representative of an existing relationship.

It's a not-impossible stretch. But it is a stretch all the same.
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Old 2011-07-20, 09:46   Link #23305
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Because when I first read this, I just figured it's in Battler to be a jokster like that, and he may have had a crush on Shannon but nothing to where he promised to be her knight in shining armor(and really meant it).
I think it might be a clue towards how Battler didn't take it so seriously, making him forget it easier. You said it yourself, it didn't feel like he really meant it. Maybe it's better to look from Shannon's perspective.

Well a major gripe I have about the clues towards Battler and Shannon's relationship is that I don't remember a single thing pointing towards Shannon having interest in mystery novels in the question arcs. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if it would have been too revealing to include.

After thinking through the all-girls orphanage thing again, I think my making sense of it was affected by some older theories of Kinzo's motivation towards hosting Fukuin, which might not be relevant anymore. Well at least it would have been another point of how they needed to present Yasu as a girl if they wanted her to Rokkenjima, which is kind of an optional addition. So it might actually raise more problems than it solves.
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Old 2011-07-20, 11:23   Link #23306
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On Bato+Shannon, yeah, he didn't seem to take it very seriously. Even if, say, in R-Prime, he returned AND remembered, that stilldoesn't imply that he took it very seriously.

To be fair, though, the Pony Theory did exist. The story is supposed to be solvable with just the first four games, and EP4 left us veeeeery few options regarding who 'Beatrice' was.
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Old 2011-07-20, 13:50   Link #23307
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After thinking through the all-girls orphanage thing again, I think my making sense of it was affected by some older theories of Kinzo's motivation towards hosting Fukuin, which might not be relevant anymore. Well at least it would have been another point of how they needed to present Yasu as a girl if they wanted her to Rokkenjima, which is kind of an optional addition. So it might actually raise more problems than it solves.
Umineko? Raising more problems than it solves? Do go on, sir, what an improbable and novel suggestion!
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On Bato+Shannon, yeah, he didn't seem to take it very seriously. Even if, say, in R-Prime, he returned AND remembered, that stilldoesn't imply that he took it very seriously.
Very true. Again, just because he promised doesn't mean he had to come back and be serious about it. But he could still have remembered. What Yasu believes her relationships to be is clearly at odds with reality in other areas anyway, Battler just might not have been quite so insensitive as we figured.
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To be fair, though, the Pony Theory did exist. The story is supposed to be solvable with just the first four games, and EP4 left us veeeeery few options regarding who 'Beatrice' was.
We were left with few options, but that doesn't mean we had any really great way to know what Beatrice wanted.

By the end of ep4 we were only left with the idea that Battler himself was specifically important to Beatrice's motive by the whole "Battler has a sin" conversation, which basically said nothing. The only thing anybody could find was that he might have made a couple promises to people. Many people considered that, and just as many went looking for something, anything else on account of that being too obvious and too simplistic.

Whoops, guess we shouldn't have overestimated.
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Old 2011-07-20, 18:06   Link #23308
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Alright, give me a culprit and explain their emotionally-founded reasons for killing EVERYONE, not just a few people.
Almost anyone could do, actually. Eva has her own inferiority complex left in her by Kinzo, because she's a woman - even though she's more capable than Krauss. Then you've got Kyrie, with her 18-year long hell, plus learning the truth about Battler's birth. Then we've got Natsuhi who's yet another woman with an inferiority complex due to how she's been treated in the Ushiromiya family, ans she's not letting the good things she's finally be able to caught simply crumble. Then there's also Rosa and her failure of a love life.

All of them have got emotional reasons to go for the gold and try to start a new life.
Moreover, a situation in which everyone got killed could be very similar to what we saw in EP7's Tea Party. In fact, this is the idea I'm supporting.

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And you know what? It doesn't look like Yasu planned for the scenario of "Someone solved the Epitaph but she didn't know about it so she acted as if no one had solved it." If she did, we never saw that message bottle.
The problem is there must be a way to know if it was solved, because otherwise, not only would Yasu's plan would have had a huge flaw, but Genji's plan as well, back when he expected Yasu to solve the Epitaph. Back when she did it, Genji showed up there immediately.

Moreover, think about it, Eva solved the Epitaph in EP3. She solved it after the 1st Twilight had taken place and everyone was taking shelter in the Guest House. Furthermore, in order to get to the gold, you must go to the Chapel, meaning getting out of the Guest House. Yasu must have noticed this, since she must have been watching them - otherwise, even if they did announce they had solved the epitaph, she wouldn't have been able to know, especially since she had killed Shannon and Kanon.

So, either there's a mechanism that allows you to know the epitaph has been solved, or Yasu must have taken notice of Eva heading toward the chapel.

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Alright, great. Totally irrelevant, though, because my point is that she puts in a lot of misplaced effort in her projects and actions and then throws her hands up. This is true even with this broom example. After a while, she stopped trying to find it and just started working on her explanation for why she couldn't find it, which she then kept to herself and suffered the consequences of losing it.
I don't think it's irrelevant, because these are two situations faced by a Yasu with extremely different states of mind. In the broom example, Yasu kept looking for it, as you said, and eventually came up with the fantastical explanation that Beatrice had stolen it. But her efforts were not misplaced, because saying she had lost it would probably have brought her a sever reprimand by Natsuhi and quite likely further mockery by her fellow servants. Moreover, notice she eventually talked about these things with Kumasawa, she got told about the attaching things to a string and she stopped losing things like her own keys. In fact, we learned that Yasu/Shannon became far less clumsy and much more efficient. So, she actually kept putting efforts in to her actions. She kept on trying.

The Devil's Roulette, on the other hand, is just Yasu not even trying any more. She's just leaving her fate to luck.

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Bernkastel doesn't take that many risks. it's one of the traits explicitly noted to separate her from Beatrice. Bern only included what was necessary for Will to solve things, and by not including Battler, she is saying that this story doesn't need a heart. On top of that, what if BATTLER somehow possessed Piece Battler and interfered, or the Spectator's Authority allowed him to speak with BATTLER (since figures under the Authority can apparently access all memories of all their selves).
But how would Piece Battler have posed any risk? In that mashed-up world, Battler is as risky to Bern as George is. In fact, perhaps even less, since Battler had been away from the family for 6 years. Moreover, the issue of bringing Will is to put heart into the story, because Bern knows she cannot do that. Why would she try to take away that which was required? Furthermore, BATTLER, as we saw in EP8, was completely unaware of EP7's game. Moreover, had BATTLER been aware of that game, he wouldn't have needed Piece Battler to be there, since he would simply have approached Bern and stopped the game.

I also don't think Bern expected BATTLER to simply be able to reach Featherine's studio.

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We were left with few options, but that doesn't mean we had any really great way to know what Beatrice wanted.

By the end of ep4 we were only left with the idea that Battler himself was specifically important to Beatrice's motive by the whole "Battler has a sin" conversation, which basically said nothing. The only thing anybody could find was that he might have made a couple promises to people. Many people considered that, and just as many went looking for something, anything else on account of that being too obvious and too simplistic.

Whoops, guess we shouldn't have overestimated.
Well, the Shkanon and Shannontrice theories did exist back then.
Although, I think most people just didn't try to merge those two together, because, well... logic.
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Old 2011-07-20, 18:23   Link #23309
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Concerning Battler's Absense in EP 7, I figured she had no control over Battler. I figured this was hinted when Will asked Maria about Mariage sorcerie, I'm sure most people think it was because ''it wasn't important so it's not needed'', but to me it seemed like ''Bernkastel is a dumbfuck and doesn't know enough to explain it in expert details, which would contradict Maria, I think I'll move her''. Will even compared what she did to ''moving a piece''



EDIT: Oh shit, guys, count the number of people(including Kanon and Shannon, considering them as people, if you consider only one of them to exist, add will, if you consider neither of them to exist, then fuck, add Bernkastel lol). You might see why Battler may have not been included.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-20 at 19:26.
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:50   Link #23310
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Almost anyone could do, actually. Eva has her own inferiority complex left in her by Kinzo, because she's a woman - even though she's more capable than Krauss. Then you've got Kyrie, with her 18-year long hell, plus learning the truth about Battler's birth. Then we've got Natsuhi who's yet another woman with an inferiority complex due to how she's been treated in the Ushiromiya family, ans she's not letting the good things she's finally be able to caught simply crumble. Then there's also Rosa and her failure of a love life.

All of them have got emotional reasons to go for the gold and try to start a new life.
Moreover, a situation in which everyone got killed could be very similar to what we saw in EP7's Tea Party. In fact, this is the idea I'm supporting.
Eva wouldn't kill George and Hideyoshi, and probably wouldn't kill the other children or Shannon so that George didn't hate her.

Kyrie wouldn't kill Rudolf and probably wouldn't kill Battler for being Rudolf's blood.

Natsuhi wouldn't kill the children or Krauss...

This hypothesis isn't working. The black witch, even as a metaphor, can't be blamed for this.

Quote:
The problem is there must be a way to know if it was solved, because otherwise, not only would Yasu's plan would have had a huge flaw, but Genji's plan as well, back when he expected Yasu to solve the Epitaph. Back when she did it, Genji showed up there immediately.

Moreover, think about it, Eva solved the Epitaph in EP3. She solved it after the 1st Twilight had taken place and everyone was taking shelter in the Guest House. Furthermore, in order to get to the gold, you must go to the Chapel, meaning getting out of the Guest House. Yasu must have noticed this, since she must have been watching them - otherwise, even if they did announce they had solved the epitaph, she wouldn't have been able to know, especially since she had killed Shannon and Kanon.

So, either there's a mechanism that allows you to know the epitaph has been solved, or Yasu must have taken notice of Eva heading toward the chapel.
Genji probably noticed Yasu going to the VIP room, but since Yasu has to be playing dead and most of the murders take place far away from the church, she might not have ever realized. There need not be any sort of mechanism beyond the lion heads, which aren't very helpful unless you're on the path towards the VIP Room.

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I don't think it's irrelevant, because these are two situations faced by a Yasu with extremely different states of mind. In the broom example, Yasu kept looking for it, as you said, and eventually came up with the fantastical explanation that Beatrice had stolen it. But her efforts were not misplaced, because saying she had lost it would probably have brought her a sever reprimand by Natsuhi and quite likely further mockery by her fellow servants. Moreover, notice she eventually talked about these things with Kumasawa, she got told about the attaching things to a string and she stopped losing things like her own keys. In fact, we learned that Yasu/Shannon became far less clumsy and much more efficient. So, she actually kept putting efforts in to her actions. She kept on trying.

The Devil's Roulette, on the other hand, is just Yasu not even trying any more. She's just leaving her fate to luck.
The Devil's Roulette is an example of misplaced effort. This isn't me criticizing Yasu for not trying things; I'm commenting on her ability to take the more roundabout, ultimately self-destructive means to solving problems. This is consistent across the board. it's her fatal flaw.

Quote:
But how would Piece Battler have posed any risk? In that mashed-up world, Battler is as risky to Bern as George is. In fact, perhaps even less, since Battler had been away from the family for 6 years. Moreover, the issue of bringing Will is to put heart into the story, because Bern knows she cannot do that. Why would she try to take away that which was required? Furthermore, BATTLER, as we saw in EP8, was completely unaware of EP7's game. Moreover, had BATTLER been aware of that game, he wouldn't have needed Piece Battler to be there, since he would simply have approached Bern and stopped the game.

I also don't think Bern expected BATTLER to simply be able to reach Featherine's studio.
Piece Battler: *Spectator Authority'd* "I loved Yasu the whole time and sent her a letter. Anyway this story totally doesn't need to end in a tragedy because X

George: Fuck.

Bern: Fuck.

~

The fact that Battler isn't there proves he is not required, and if he is not required, he isn't going to be there. Bernkastel doesn't fill her games with unnecessary details, as we see every time she has any sort of writing authority whatsoever, such as her game in EP8.

BATTLER probably couldn't have stopped Bern's game, but he could've probably fucked it up.I don't think she'd want to give any window of oppurtunity for Will and Battler to team up or otherwise have any chance to exchange ideas.

Also, I'm imagining the hilarity of Battler recognizing Lion as Yasu and ruining everything.

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Concerning Battler's Absense in EP 7, I figured she had no control over Battler. I figured this was hinted when Will asked Maria about Mariage sorcerie, I'm sure most people think it was because ''it wasn't important so it's not needed'', but to me it seemed like ''Bernkastel is a dumbfuck and doesn't know enough to explain it in expert details, which would contradict Maria, I think I'll move her''. Will even compared what she did to ''moving a piece''
No, that's not what happened at all. Mariage Sorciere had no relevance to anything, so Bern moved the piece to make him get back on track. Will was getting stuck on tangents.

Quote:
EDIT: Oh shit, guys, count the number of people(including Kanon and Shannon, considering them as people, if you consider only one of them to exist, add will, if you consider neither of them to exist, then fuck, add Bernkastel lol). You might see why Battler may have not been included.
Uh...so what? The Gamemaster is free to add or detract as many characters as they want so long as the story is self-consistent. Otherwise Erika would have never been allowed.
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:51   Link #23311
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By the end of ep4 we were only left with the idea that Battler himself was specifically important to Beatrice's motive by the whole "Battler has a sin" conversation, which basically said nothing. The only thing anybody could find was that he might have made a couple promises to people. Many people considered that, and just as many went looking for something, anything else on account of that being too obvious and too simplistic.

Whoops, guess we shouldn't have overestimated.
I guess that's fair. To be honest, I also thought it was too simplistic. However. i couldn't land on ANYTHING else really, because Battler was only 11-going-on-12 when he was last on Rokkenjima, and wouldn't be capable of much besides a promise or some kind of insult, like Ange had done to Maria.

I mean, my little brother is exactly that age now (just about to turn 12) - I sure hope he isn't about to lay the seeds for our doom in some young girls fractures psyche.

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Well, the Shkanon and Shannontrice theories did exist back then.
Although, I think most people just didn't try to merge those two together, because, well... logic.
This is fair - the whole promise bit in EP4 just about clinched Shannontrice as a certainty, but EP1-4 are wholly solvable without Shkanon, I believe.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Concerning Battler's Absense in EP 7, I figured she had no control over Battler. I figured this was hinted when Will asked Maria about Mariage sorcerie, I'm sure most people think it was because ''it wasn't important so it's not needed'', but to me it seemed like ''Bernkastel is a dumbfuck and doesn't know enough to explain it in expert details, which would contradict Maria, I think I'll move her''. Will even compared what she did to ''moving a piece''



EDIT: Oh shit, guys, count the number of people(including Kanon and Shannon, considering them as people, if you consider only one of them to exist, add will, if you consider neither of them to exist, then fuck, add Bernkastel lol). You might see why Battler may have not been included.
I dunno - i think if Bern could properly present craploads of evidence she has no real way of knowing, such as Bice and Jessica's romp in the VIP room, I'm sure she could present Mariage Sorcerie. I thought she moved Maria because the solution would probably have been very obvious to Will if he was allowed to inquire, and Bern wanted to watch him get around a bit more first.

Also, about the number of people, well, Will seems to exist entirely in the Meta, anyway. Or maybe he's like Erika and he's only as present as the story needs him to be. XD
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:57   Link #23312
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Well, if you count Shannon and Kannon as people, that makes 18 if you exclude Battler. Perhaps I got a little too excited thinking that might have been important.


lol, for a bit of a laugh, I'm reading ep 7 now and as Yasu-Beatrice is doing the letter sacrificing on the chapel, she ponders about which I to throw away. The funny part is: ''Forget it, there's two 'I's'', if I mess up, I can simply try another one.''

(narration)

Unless messing up sets off a trap that blows up the island, of course.
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Old 2011-07-20, 21:07   Link #23313
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Well, if you count Shannon and Kannon as people, that makes 18 if you exclude Battler. Perhaps I got a little too excited thinking that might have been important.
You don't. They're from an alternate kakera, so you don't count them since Lion exists in their place. That's the entire point of "Everything is gathered here."
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Old 2011-07-21, 08:40   Link #23314
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This is fair - the whole promise bit in EP4 just about clinched Shannontrice as a certainty, but EP1-4 are wholly solvable without Shkanon, I believe.
There's only 2-3 things in the entire series at best that are explicable with Shkanon, and one thing that isn't explicable without it. Guess where that one thing is? HINT: Not in ep1-4.
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Old 2011-07-21, 11:05   Link #23315
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Eva wouldn't kill George and Hideyoshi, and probably wouldn't kill the other children or Shannon so that George didn't hate her.

Kyrie wouldn't kill Rudolf and probably wouldn't kill Battler for being Rudolf's blood.

Natsuhi wouldn't kill the children or Krauss...

This hypothesis isn't working. The black witch, even as a metaphor, can't be blamed for this.
It works given the proper situation. This is why I keep on brining up the characters' own emotions and a given scenario like EP7's Tea Party. Kyrie (and probably Rudolph too) is a good example of the Black Witch in that scenario.

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Genji probably noticed Yasu going to the VIP room, but since Yasu has to be playing dead and most of the murders take place far away from the church, she might not have ever realized. There need not be any sort of mechanism beyond the lion heads, which aren't very helpful unless you're on the path towards the VIP Room.
The problem is that, by the time Eva solved the epitaph, everyone but the sacrifices of the 1st Twilight were alive. It wasn't until Eva solved the epitaph that the killings continued. So, unless you mean that Yasu was playing dead and expecting them all to go around screaming they had solved the epitaph for her to be able to know, I think it only makes sense to think Yasu must have been watching them and should have noticed when Eva left the Guest House.

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The Devil's Roulette is an example of misplaced effort. This isn't me criticizing Yasu for not trying things; I'm commenting on her ability to take the more roundabout, ultimately self-destructive means to solving problems. This is consistent across the board. it's her fatal flaw.
I think this really comes down as how we see things. I really don't see it as misplaced effort, but as Yasu just not really caring any more.


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Piece Battler: *Spectator Authority'd* "I loved Yasu the whole time and sent her a letter. Anyway this story totally doesn't need to end in a tragedy because X

George: Fuck.

Bern: Fuck.
The problem here is that the event had already taken place. It had already ended up in a tragedy. Moreover, if we take the Trick and Magic choices in EP8, it's obvious Ange saw something she couldn't deal with unless she deluded herself. I don't think this could have been related to Yasu.

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The fact that Battler isn't there proves he is not required, and if he is not required, he isn't going to be there. Bernkastel doesn't fill her games with unnecessary details, as we see every time she has any sort of writing authority whatsoever, such as her game in EP8.
By that logic, she could have removed anyone else Will didn't need to interview, yet, the only one missing was Battler.

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BATTLER probably couldn't have stopped Bern's game, but he could've probably fucked it up.I don't think she'd want to give any window of oppurtunity for Will and Battler to team up or otherwise have any chance to exchange ideas.
How? Please, tell me. She was the Game Master and was backed-up by no one other than Featherine. What could BATTLER do?

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This is fair - the whole promise bit in EP4 just about clinched Shannontrice as a certainty, but EP1-4 are wholly solvable without Shkanon, I believe.
The promise thing, I believe, was in EP3. In EP4 we had the bit about Battler's sin.
In addition, Shannontrice alone doesn't solve anything, since Shannon dies in the 1st Twilight of EP1 and there's Red from EP4's ??? Tea Party to back that up. Then we got read for her death in the 1st Twilight of EP3. Mind you, Shkanon meets this same problem in EP2 and EP3.

The important factor that you need is the idea that additional personalities/roles can also count as people (in terms of Red Text, this is) - without this Shkanontrice is pretty mush useless. But well, other than the whole Jessica/Jessie bit in EP2, there weren't any really good hints - and I wouldn't call the Jessie hint good either. Moreover, I think asking people to put 3 characters in one plus the whole Personalities=People idea is asking too much, since that idea is hardly logical.
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Old 2011-07-21, 12:38   Link #23316
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In addition, Shannontrice alone doesn't solve anything, since Shannon dies in the 1st Twilight of EP1 and there's Red from EP4's ??? Tea Party to back that up.
No there isn't, at least if you use something akin to Will's solution.
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Then we got read for her death in the 1st Twilight of EP3. Mind you, Shkanon meets this same problem in EP2 and EP3.
Only kind of. And the one place it might be most useful is the one place where it isn't really needed and makes much more sense without it.
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The important factor that you need is the idea that additional personalities/roles can also count as people (in terms of Red Text, this is) - without this Shkanontrice is pretty mush useless.
No, it's perfectly fine. You don't need personality death to solve ep1-4. Ever. Unless, of course, you're presupposing Shkanon, at which point you need personality death to get around reds of that nature which would otherwise potentially preclude it. But that's stupid and implies one should think the author is stupid. Why would you write yourself into a problem you need a bullshit rule-bending trick to get out of when you could just not have Kanon there?

But that's another matter entirely.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-07-21, 13:11   Link #23317
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The problem is that, by the time Eva solved the epitaph, everyone but the sacrifices of the 1st Twilight were alive. It wasn't until Eva solved the epitaph that the killings continued. So, unless you mean that Yasu was playing dead and expecting them all to go around screaming they had solved the epitaph for her to be able to know, I think it only makes sense to think Yasu must have been watching them and should have noticed when Eva left the Guest House.
Yes, I'm saying that's pretty much exactly what happened. How is she supposed to know unless they announce it or she follows them to the VIP Room? She's not a psychic.

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The problem here is that the event had already taken place. It had already ended up in a tragedy. Moreover, if we take the Trick and Magic choices in EP8, it's obvious Ange saw something she couldn't deal with unless she deluded herself. I don't think this could have been related to Yasu.
Only from a 1998 perspective. From the perspective of the story, the event can still be avoided.

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By that logic, she could have removed anyone else Will didn't need to interview, yet, the only one missing was Battler.
There's an excuse to have Battler be absent. With every other family member she'll have to make up an excuse for why they're not there. That, and Battler is the most dangerous since he's the focus of everything.

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How? Please, tell me. She was the Game Master and was backed-up by no one other than Featherine. What could BATTLER do?
He's the Territory Lord. His authority trumps everyone elses' when it comes to the subject of Rokkenjima of 1986, no matter what.

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But that's stupid and implies one should think the author is stupid.
The same author who felt that characters shouldn't get wet when they go in the rain, mind you.
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Old 2011-07-21, 15:05   Link #23318
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No there isn't, at least if you use something akin to Will's solution.Only kind of. And the one place it might be most useful is the one place where it isn't really needed and makes much more sense without it.
You're right, Shannon could have been perfectly alive after EP1's 1st Twilight. My bad.

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No, it's perfectly fine. You don't need personality death to solve ep1-4. Ever. Unless, of course, you're presupposing Shkanon, at which point you need personality death to get around reds of that nature which would otherwise potentially preclude it. But that's stupid and implies one should think the author is stupid. Why would you write yourself into a problem you need a bullshit rule-bending trick to get out of when you could just not have Kanon there?
No, I'm just saying that if you want to go by either Shannontrice or ShKanon in all 4 episodes, you pretty much need personality/imaginary character/role death, or something to help you bend rules, because we do have red for Shannon's death in EP3's 1st Twilight, at the moment of the 1st Twilight.

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Yes, I'm saying that's pretty much exactly what happened. How is she supposed to know unless they announce it or she follows them to the VIP Room? She's not a psychic.
Indeed, and either way, she needs to be around. Even if they do announce it, Yasu needs to be around. So, even if there isn't a mechanism that allows her to know someone has solved the epitaph, by being around she should have noticed Eva heading to the chapel. If she wasn't around, how did she expect to know anyone had solved the epitaph?

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Only from a 1998 perspective. From the perspective of the story, the event can still be avoided.
Of course, but remember that Lion's world was supposed to be one in which nothing bad happened. Moreover, Will's sole purpose there was to ask questions get answers, and then answer Bern's question. There was nothing for him to try to prevent.

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There's an excuse to have Battler be absent. With every other family member she'll have to make up an excuse for why they're not there. That, and Battler is the most dangerous since he's the focus of everything.
There's as much of an excuse for Battler to be absent as for the rest. The fact of the matter is, in ever single one of the games up until EP7, Battler had been listed as appearing in the story. Yet, for some reason, he wasn't in that mashed-up world and he was the only one who was absent. Why? There must be a factor for him not to show up in this world, yet him showing up in all the others. I mean, I don't know, this is how I see this.

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He's the Territory Lord. His authority trumps everyone elses' when it comes to the subject of Rokkenjima of 1986, no matter what.
Sure, that helped him a lot in EP6 and EP8. It also allowed him to prevent the game Bern started in EP7, which he was, of course, fully aware of.
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Old 2011-07-21, 15:33   Link #23319
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Of course, but remember that Lion's world was supposed to be one in which nothing bad happened. Moreover, Will's sole purpose there was to ask questions get answers, and then answer Bern's question. There was nothing for him to try to prevent.
Not according to Bern. And as he demonstrates, Will takes things into his own hands and tries to change events once he realizes they're not to his liking. What if Battler prompted him to act much earlier?

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There's as much of an excuse for Battler to be absent as for the rest. The fact of the matter is, in ever single one of the games up until EP7, Battler had been listed as appearing in the story. Yet, for some reason, he wasn't in that mashed-up world and he was the only one who was absent. Why? There must be a factor for him not to show up in this world, yet him showing up in all the others. I mean, I don't know, this is how I see this.
Battler is effectively off the family's register, and his deciding to come on 1986 is a Special Event. It's a matter of simply not having it happen. That's not going to work for Maria, Rosa, Jessica, George, Natsuhi, Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie....

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Sure, that helped him a lot in EP6 and EP8. It also allowed him to prevent the game Bern started in EP7, which he was, of course, fully aware of.
EP8 pretty much confirms that EP6 was Battler pulling off a master plan, so yes it did. And EP8 had this whole thing with him basically putting everything up to Ange to decide, so it's not the same as any other scenario. Otherwise, Battler can effectively do anything he wants since he's the avatar of the guy writing everything that's happening.
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Old 2011-07-21, 21:01   Link #23320
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Not according to Bern. And as he demonstrates, Will takes things into his own hands and tries to change events once he realizes they're not to his liking. What if Battler prompted him to act much earlier?
Yeah, but that was after the game was over and Bern started a game of mockery.
During the first part, all there was to it was to answer "who killed Beatrice?" and that was that.

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Battler is effectively off the family's register, and his deciding to come on 1986 is a Special Event. It's a matter of simply not having it happen. That's not going to work for Maria, Rosa, Jessica, George, Natsuhi, Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie....
It's a special event, but it's an event that took place in all the games and in R. Prime.
That's what I'm trying to get at. Him being in the island is a fact.
Now, we know the reason he's been absent for 6 years is due to issues related to his immediate family and that little by little he reintegrated into it. I think it was hinted that Rudolph begging for forgiveness was a major factor. But either way, in Lion's world, there must have been a difference so that Battler didn't show up. Mind you, the difference could be relevant or not to the mystery. I'm just trying to point out that there could be a big hint here.

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EP8 pretty much confirms that EP6 was Battler pulling off a master plan, so yes it did. And EP8 had this whole thing with him basically putting everything up to Ange to decide, so it's not the same as any other scenario. Otherwise, Battler can effectively do anything he wants since he's the avatar of the guy writing everything that's happening.
Actually, Hachijo Tohya's avatar is Featherine, not BATTLER. And it was Featherine who allowed Bern to make this game and let her be Game Master.
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