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Old 2011-07-21, 22:46   Link #23321
AuraTwilight
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Yeah, but that was after the game was over and Bern started a game of mockery.
During the first part, all there was to it was to answer "who killed Beatrice?" and that was that.
Bear in mind Will only cooperated because Bern was keeping him from leaving. It wasn't out of any respect for Bern.

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It's a special event, but it's an event that took place in all the games and in R. Prime.
That's what I'm trying to get at. Him being in the island is a fact.
Now, we know the reason he's been absent for 6 years is due to issues related to his immediate family and that little by little he reintegrated into it. I think it was hinted that Rudolph begging for forgiveness was a major factor. But either way, in Lion's world, there must have been a difference so that Battler didn't show up. Mind you, the difference could be relevant or not to the mystery. I'm just trying to point out that there could be a big hint here.
No, there doesn't need to be, because Lion's existence itself is a miracle, and a total fiction. There are no real rules because it's just a fantasy, just like Lion and Yasu (in the form of Shannon, Kanon, or Claire) are able to meet and speak to each other. If Bernkastel doesn't want Battler to be there, she can just erase him and she doesn't need to justify it beyond "It's part of the setting for this story."

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Actually, Hachijo Tohya's avatar is Featherine, not BATTLER. And it was Featherine who allowed Bern to make this game and let her be Game Master.
Uh, no. Hachijo Tohya is Battler. You're confusing him with Ikuko/Featherine, a separate entity that acts as his publisher.
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Old 2011-07-21, 22:50   Link #23322
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The same author who felt that characters shouldn't get wet when they go in the rain, mind you.
That's a different kind of stupid. That's sound-in-space stupid. It's still stupid, but whatever, it's the genre.

"I made up a rule I'm now going to intentionally break while lying about the very premise of my rule" is special stupid, like Special Education.
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Old 2011-07-22, 10:48   Link #23323
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People still believes that kanon and shannon are the same person? ._.
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Old 2011-07-22, 12:40   Link #23324
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Uh, yea. It was confirmed. It's not even about believing it anymore so much as reading Umineko up to the 6th and 7th episodes.
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Old 2011-07-22, 14:45   Link #23325
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Well it's more like Shannon and Kanon are non-persons, but there's only one person behind them. Depending on your definition of a "person," anyway.
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Old 2011-07-22, 14:47   Link #23326
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The general idea is the same either way. They're the same physical entity.
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Old 2011-07-22, 15:04   Link #23327
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well it's more like Shannon and Kanon are non-persons, but there's only one person behind them. Depending on your definition of a "person," anyway.
That would raise the "There are 17 people" problem.
If you decide to only count living bodies, it makes 16 people right ?
But it seems (I can be mistaken), that most people that count personalities are referring to "Shannon" and Kanon" as 2 people. However, what about Beatrice ? Isn't she a proper personality too ? It would make 18 then. (Also, I'm just asking)
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Old 2011-07-22, 15:18   Link #23328
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The general idea is the same either way. They're the same physical entity.
Well no, they're not a physical entity at all. Yasu is a physical entity. Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all characters, whether or not disguise is a factor. Hell, even if DID is a factor, it's still pretty much so.

But you're right, the idea is the same.
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That would raise the "There are 17 people" problem.
Only on game boards, as red text doesn't apply to Rokkenjima-Prime. Assuming Kinzo was dead, Erika didn't survive or wasn't real, and only Yasu exists, there would have been 16 people on Rokkenjima in 1986, yes.

On game boards or in stories there are as many people as the author says there are.
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But it seems (I can be mistaken), that most people that count personalities are referring to "Shannon" and Kanon" as 2 people. However, what about Beatrice ? Isn't she a proper personality too ? It would make 18 then. (Also, I'm just asking)
If Shannon and Kanon are "persons," and Beatrice is the same, then you're correct, Beatrice should be counted. But she isn't. How 'bout that.
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Old 2011-07-22, 16:33   Link #23329
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The loophole for Beatrice could be she's a witch, and therefore, the author doesn't consider her a person.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Bear in mind Will only cooperated because Bern was keeping him from leaving. It wasn't out of any respect for Bern.
Indeed, I'm not implying otherwise.

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No, there doesn't need to be, because Lion's existence itself is a miracle, and a total fiction. There are no real rules because it's just a fantasy, just like Lion and Yasu (in the form of Shannon, Kanon, or Claire) are able to meet and speak to each other. If Bernkastel doesn't want Battler to be there, she can just erase him and she doesn't need to justify it beyond "It's part of the setting for this story."
Indeed, but notice everything has a reason. Why does Lion exist in EP7? Because Natsuhi didn't push the servant down the cliff. Why was Ange in the island in EP8? Because her assplosions stopped.

My point is, depending on the reason why Battler was absent in the conference in Lion's world, we may get some hints.

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Uh, no. Hachijo Tohya is Battler. You're confusing him with Ikuko/Featherine, a separate entity that acts as his publisher.
I'm not confusing Ikuko with Tōya. I'm going by the names we went by in EP6. Anyhow, my point is, in Meta-terms, Hachijō To#333;ya/Featherine is above BATTLER. If Featherine had no authority, how was she able to allow Bern to host a game? In EP5, Lambda was able to do it, because Beato was still alive and she was taking her place. But after EP5, Battler became the territory lord, and yet, Featherine was still able to have enough authority to allow Bern host a game, which Battler had no idea about. Also, remember the game in EP7 was Featherine's idea. Bern was just looking for Lambda when she ended up at Featherine's studio at the end of EP6.
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Old 2011-07-22, 16:44   Link #23330
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The loophole for Beatrice could be she's a witch, and therefore, the author doesn't consider her a person.
Yes, and that's clearly what Ryukishi intends, but it means that as far as storytelling is concerned, who is and is not a person is entirely arbitrary.

As an example that's less contentious, consider if Erika were wholly fictional (her portrayal may as well be). Erika can be a "person" counted on a game board if the author/game master of that particular one wishes for her to be. However, they could just as easily declare that, like Beatrice or Dlanor or whoever else isn't, Erika's not to be counted as a person. Even if she is. It's fiat.

It makes narrative sense why Beatrice might cast a "human Beato" on the island and not raise the person count (she's metaphorically hinting at her true nature), but there's no actual hard and fast rule to it. Trying to fall all over yourself to explain it just winds up being stupid. The count is based on whoever is considered a person. Ronove is not a person, Genji is. Beatrice isn't a person, Kanon is. Dlanor isn't a person, Erika is. Sometimes Kinzo is a person, most times he isn't. Oh well.
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Old 2011-07-22, 17:04   Link #23331
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Hmmm... that's hypothetically possible, but in that case Erika would have to be played by someone else, because, otherwise, she'd only be able to appear in fantasy scenes. I mean, that's how it works for Beatrice.
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Old 2011-07-22, 18:30   Link #23332
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Indeed, but notice everything has a reason. Why does Lion exist in EP7? Because Natsuhi didn't push the servant down the cliff. Why was Ange in the island in EP8? Because her assplosions stopped.

My point is, depending on the reason why Battler was absent in the conference in Lion's world, we may get some hints.
And the reason why Battler is absent is because he didn't feel like it. He's not gonna attend some witch funeral, ihi.

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I'm not confusing Ikuko with Tōya. I'm going by the names we went by in EP6. Anyhow, my point is, in Meta-terms, Hachijō To#333;ya/Featherine is above BATTLER. If Featherine had no authority, how was she able to allow Bern to host a game? In EP5, Lambda was able to do it, because Beato was still alive and she was taking her place. But after EP5, Battler became the territory lord, and yet, Featherine was still able to have enough authority to allow Bern host a game, which Battler had no idea about. Also, remember the game in EP7 was Featherine's idea. Bern was just looking for Lambda when she ended up at Featherine's studio at the end of EP6.
Does Featherine have authority over BATTLER, or does she only claim to? Her human identity claimed to write EP6, and we know this isn't true.

Does Featherine have authority to allow games, or does Bern have the authority to write one in the same manner anyone can write a fanfiction?

BATTLER has no awareness for the same reason the Author doesn't know about your shitty fanfic.

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Hmmm... that's hypothetically possible, but in that case Erika would have to be played by someone else, because, otherwise, she'd only be able to appear in fantasy scenes. I mean, that's how it works for Beatrice.
Except for EP4, where Battler talks to her twice.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:44   Link #23333
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Hmmm... that's hypothetically possible, but in that case Erika would have to be played by someone else, because, otherwise, she'd only be able to appear in fantasy scenes. I mean, that's how it works for Beatrice.
But ... but...

# Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
# She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.


So ... yeah.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:59   Link #23334
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And the reason why Battler is absent is because he didn't feel like it. He's not gonna attend some witch funeral, ihi.
That's a possibility, but it's not a fact.
Honestly, my sole point here is that there are a variety of reasons Battler could have been absent in EP7. And depending on some of those reasons, we may be getting some hints.
Basically, I'm saying that whilst Battler showed up in Rokkenjima in all the normal games, he didn't show up in EP7's, and that one happens to be the one in which Yasu doesn't exist. So, there could be something suspicious there.
Now, if you want to think it's just a coincidence and that Battler just happened to miss that conference for reasons completely unrelated the mystery, that's cool.
All I wanted to point out is that there may be a hint there.

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Does Featherine have authority over BATTLER, or does she only claim to? Her human identity claimed to write EP6, and we know this isn't true.
Hard to say. One thing we can be sure of, though, is that Ikuko quite likely knows as much as Tōya. Moreover, we've seen Featherine been able to watch BATTLER's actions from one Meta-level above.

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Does Featherine have authority to allow games, or does Bern have the authority to write one in the same manner anyone can write a fanfiction?

BATTLER has no awareness for the same reason the Author doesn't know about your shitty fanfic.
Anyone can write fanfictions, indeed, but only specific people can be Game Masters - namely, people who have solved the mystery. The issue here is, though, we know that although Bern knew some things about it, she quite likely hadn't reached the main truth. So, she couldn't simply just be a Game Master like that. However, Featherine showed up in EP6 and allowed her to host a game.

Also, regarding the topic of fanfictions and authors have nothing to do with them, doesn't that defeat your argument about Bern being wary about BATTLER screwing up her story? I mean, just like an author can do nothing about how someone writes a fanfic, by what you've said, BATTLER should be unable to do anything about how Bern wrote her story. So, no possession of pieces and whatnot.

Also, I don't really think BATTLER minds heartless stories. He was more than okay with Bern's story in EP8. He also rolled around with the story with that psycho Battler in the latest TIP.

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Except for EP4, where Battler talks to her twice.
Precisely my point. We know the Beatrice Battler met in EP4 - and quite likely the one Rosa and Kyrie met in EP2 was Yasu. There's no real Beatrice - real as in terms of looks, part of her personality and the whole deal about being the family alchemist and even less a witch. In the end, what we got was someone personifying Beatrice.

So, if Erika is a non-person, just as with Beatrice, someone should be personifying her, instead of her being an actual person with her own body.

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But ... but...

# Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
# She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.


So ... yeah.
Precisely. Notice that by increasing the numbers of people in the island by one, these reds confirm Erika playing the role of a human in EP5 (and, quite likely, in EP6). Moreover, it also confirms there was no Furudo Erika in any of the previous games, nor did she have any influence, which, I think shows she couldn't have showed up as a non-person either (i.e. a la mini-skirt Beato).

So, I think this way it can be explained why Shannon and Kanon can show up as people and add to the head-count (or well, at least one of them, since there's the chance one of those may be Yasu's servant name, and thus a real person). Well, this is basically what Renall pointed out before, but I think the distinction between human and non-person is important, since this would explain why Shannon and Kanon add to the count, and Beatrice doesn't.
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Old 2011-07-22, 23:12   Link #23335
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That's a possibility, but it's not a fact.
No shit sherlock. I'm demonstrating that it's so easy to justify Battler's absence it's really not worth doing so. It's not some big mystery that will give us insight into new information.

Quote:
Basically, I'm saying that whilst Battler showed up in Rokkenjima in all the normal games, he didn't show up in EP7's, and that one happens to be the one in which Yasu doesn't exist. So, there could be something suspicious there.
It's also a world where Maria doesn't believe in witches. Maybe he doesn't come back because without a nine year old to troll, it's no fun.

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Hard to say. One thing we can be sure of, though, is that Ikuko quite likely knows as much as Tōya. Moreover, we've seen Featherine been able to watch BATTLER's actions from one Meta-level above.
I wouldn't say so. Ikuko has no access to Toya's subconscious knowledge which seems to leak through in his writings. She can only infer from the surface text.

And since EP6's 1998 is clearly not real due to being an 'impossible memory', Toya probably wrote it, putting BATTLER above Featherine by technicality. Nener nener.

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Anyone can write fanfictions, indeed, but only specific people can be Game Masters - namely, people who have solved the mystery. The issue here is, though, we know that although Bern knew some things about it, she quite likely hadn't reached the main truth. So, she couldn't simply just be a Game Master like that. However, Featherine shows up in EP6 and allows her to host a game.
Pardon me, but where is it stated that a Gamemaster has to have solved the mystery? Moreover, Bernkastel doesn't even consider EP7 to be 'real Gamemastering', so it's irrelevant.

Featherine asks her to do a game, but Bern doesn't need her permission.

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Also, regarding the topic of fanfictions and authors have nothing to do with them, doesn't that defeat your argument about Bern being wary about BATTLER screwing up her story? I mean, just like an author can do nothing about how someone writes a fanfic, by what you've said, BATTLER should be unable to do anything about how Bern wrote her story. So, no possession of pieces.
No, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm saying an Author can be ignorant of a fanfiction, but that doesn't mean that, if an author is made aware of a fanfic, that they're powerless to do something about it. He can use Word of God to shoot down everything, or just call Copyright and have her website taken down lolol.

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Also, I don't really think BATTLER minds heartless stories. He was more than okay with Bern's story in EP8. He also rolled around with the story with that psycho Battler in the latest TIP.
Battler was also sucking up to Bern and trying to establish a friendship with her. That's a bit different from tolerating her explicitly torturing his wife and trying to tear down any hope of her ever being happy ever while insulting everything she's ever believed in.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:40   Link #23336
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Thinking about it, the whole deal about humans and non-persons went too above my head, since Shannon and Kanon, just as Beatrice are quite likely played by Yasu.

So, taking back the last couple of paragraphs in the previous post, I think it'd be easier to say that there are characters like Shannon, Kanon and Erika who add up to the head count, because they are supposed to be human, as opposed to Beatrice who is supposed to be a witch.

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No shit sherlock. I'm demonstrating that it's so easy to justify Battler's absence it's really not worth doing so. It's not some big mystery that will give us insight into new information.
Just because we can find justifications to Battler's absence doesn't make taking another approach worthless.
We can find thousands of reason why his absence was unrelated to the mystery, and all of them could be wrong.

I really don't see why we're discussing about this point to be honest, since both points are equally valid.

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I wouldn't say so. Ikuko has no access to Toya's subconscious knowledge which seems to leak through in his writings. She can only infer from the surface text.
That's assuming she hasn't got the full story directly from him.

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And since EP6's 1998 is clearly not real due to being an 'impossible memory', Toya probably wrote it, putting BATTLER above Featherine by technicality. Nener nener.
Not necessarily so, and this brings another idea of mine. As you put it, EP6 could have been another novel written by Tōya, in which he depicted himself as a woman (namely Ikuko). One thing that most people realise about EP6's Tōya/Featherine, is that it screams of author's self-insert. So, EP6's Featherine could be as much of an R07's self-insert as Tōya's.

I think this makes sense considering Hachijō Tōya != Ushiromiya Battler. So, BATTLER could be there to represent his past self and Featherine to represent his current self. And well, the one writing the story is Tōya and not Battler.

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Pardon me, but where is it stated that a Gamemaster has to have solved the mystery?
Pretty much EP5, isn't it? Well, "solved the mystery" may be the wrong term, but it must be someone who knows the truth. EP1-4's GM was Beato, EP5's was Lambda and after reaching the truth, Battler gained the right to become a GM.

It also makes sense. How could you be a GM for Beato's game when you've got no idea how it works and even less its solution?

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Moreover, Bernkastel doesn't even consider EP7 to be 'real Gamemastering', so it's irrelevant.
Which part of it, though? The first one or the Tea Party?
And this is just assuming she said she wasn't the GM during the Tea Party simply to screw with Ange - which she admitted in EP8, but that could have been a lie.

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Featherine asks her to do a game, but Bern doesn't need her permission.
Is that so? By the end of EP6, Bern seemed extremely butthurt, and then Featherine came up with the idea of a new game which Bern took massive delight on, as we saw in EP7.

Had Bern been able to do it before, don't you think she'd have done it? It'd have given her the perfect chance to screw with Battler in EP6.

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No, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm saying an Author can be ignorant of a fanfiction, but that doesn't mean that, if an author is made aware of a fanfic, that they're powerless to do something about it. He can use Word of God to shoot down everything, or just call Copyright and have her website taken down lolol.
There's a minor problem here, though, and its that Tōya cannot simply retcon the events of the story as he pleases, because in the end, these are supposed to have been based on real events, which he cannot change. So, he cannot contradict Bern if she's stating facts. Furthermore, if we go by the idea that everything we saw in EP6 was written by Tōya, then so has to be the part in which Featherine had Bern host the new game.

Also, in terms of Copyright, that cannot go, since the first two novels were not done by him and the story is based on real events and real people. So, that's a big nope.

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Battler was also sucking up to Bern and trying to establish a friendship with her. That's a bit different from tolerating her explicitly torturing his wife and trying to tear down any hope of her ever being happy ever while insulting everything she's ever believed in.
She wasn't torturing Beato, since Will had already killed Clair. You could say, though, Bern was desecrating her corpse by exposing a bunch of truths. Well, not that he'd have liked that anyway, but in the end, who knows what he was doing during that time.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:51   Link #23337
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Just because we can find justifications to Battler's absence doesn't make taking another approach worthless.
We can find thousands of reason why his absence was unrelated to the mystery, and all of them could be wrong.

I really don't see why we're discussing about this point to be honest, since both points are equally valid.
I'm just saying that trying to analyze why he's missing, when Ryukishi never addresses it as significant, means it's probably a case of overanalyzing.

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That's assuming she hasn't got the full story directly from him.
She can't, because he can't tell her. He knows, but he needs to figure out what he knows.

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Not necessarily so, and this brings another idea of mine. As you put it, EP6 could have been another novel written by Tōya, in which he depicted himself as a woman (namely Ikuko). One thing that most people realise about EP6's Tōya/Featherine, is that it screams of author's self-insert. So, EP6's Featherine could be as much of an R07's self-insert as Tōya's.

I think this makes sense considering Hachijō Tōya != Ushiromiya Battler. So, BATTLER could be there to represent his past self and Featherine to represent his current self. And well, the one writing the story is Tōya and not Battler.
Maybe in a figurative sense. I just like the idea that Toya is a mentally damaged recluse and Ikuko is his spokesperson, using his identity when talking to 'clients'.

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Pretty much EP5, isn't it? Well, "solved the mystery" may be the wrong term, but it must be someone who knows the truth. EP1-4's GM was Beato, EP5's was Lambda and after reaching the truth, Battler gained the right to become a GM.

It also makes sense. How could you be a GM for Beato's game when you've got no idea how it works and even less its solution?
There's a difference, hwoever, between "knowing everything" and "knowing enough to construct a proper game." not even Featherine knows everything but you say she can authorize a Game. Battler became the Territory Lord, though, and THAT certainly requires knowing the truth. Also Gold truth.

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Which part of it, though? The first one or the Tea Party?
And this is just assuming she said she wasn't the GM during the Tea Party simply to screw with Ange - which she admitted in EP8, but that could have been a lie.
All of it. Bern says "I haven't gotten to do any real gamemastering yet" When Featherine goes to sleep.

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Is that so? By the end of EP6, Bern seemed extremely butthurt, and then Featherine came up with the idea of a new game which Bern took massive delight on, as we saw in EP7.

Had Bern been able to do it before, don't you think she'd have done it? It'd have given her the perfect chance to screw with Battler in EP6.
Assuming she even knew it was possible for her to do before then. You can very easily make an arc for Bern and Lambda becoming more and more self-aware of what's going on as their characters develop.

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There's a minor problem here, though, and its that Tōya cannot simply retcon the events of the story as he pleases, because in the end, these are supposed to have been based on real events, which he cannot change. So, he cannot contradict Bern if she's stating facts. Furthermore, if we go by the idea that everything we saw in EP6 was written by Tōya, then so has to be the part in which Featherine had Bern host the new game.

Also, in terms of Copyright, that cannot go, since the first two novels were not done by him and the story is based on real events and real people. So, that's a big nope.
The copyright thing was tongue in cheek, you know. But point is, he's the Territory Lord. He is the absolute master and God of Rokkenjima. If he says Bern can't make a game (under a worldview where meta-beings can give and take this authority), then he should be able to do so.

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She wasn't torturing Beato, since Will had already killed Clair. You could say, though, Bern was desecrating her corpse by exposing a bunch of truths. Well, not that he'd have liked that anyway, but in the end, who knows what he was doing during that time.
It seems implied that Beato's awareness can see things even through the corpse, and there's also Lion to consider. Point is, Bern is trampling on everything Beatrice held dear and stomping on everything Battler worked for. Her EP8 game didn't do this.
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Old 2011-07-23, 11:34   Link #23338
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm just saying that trying to analyze why he's missing, when Ryukishi never addresses it as significant, means it's probably a case of overanalyzing.
It could be, definitely, but sadly the game is too vague in many areas to say when we're over-analysing.

I bring Battler's absence to notice, due personal suspicion about Kyrie and Rudolph who could have been involved in this case from even before, rather than just being mere opportunists. If they were somehow involved with Yasu from before, Battler's absence in Lion's world could be a small hint, because Lion has no deep feelings for Battler, whereas in Yasu's worlds, Rudolph and Kyrie went an extra mile to persuade Battler in forgiving them.

There's Rudolph telling Battler he had something to say to him in EP1 (which was written by Yasu before 1986's conference took place), EP7's Tea Party, Bern's game in EP8 and Ange's reaction to Eva's diary which lead me to think there may be something going on here. There's also Battler and Yasu/Beato being able to leave in a boat (but this could be explained by saying Kinzo gave the boats some maintenance, or that the boat simply happened to work and Yasu knew it) and they had gold with them.

Just as you've said, I may be over-analysing here and I could be completely wrong in my assumptions, but all the same, I think it's valid.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She can't, because he can't tell her. He knows, but he needs to figure out what he knows.
But by EP6 (or even before) Tōya has, quite likely, already recovered his memories. Ikuko was there with him throughout his whole mental journey. It wouldn't be odd, at all, if he told her his story.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Maybe in a figurative sense. I just like the idea that Toya is a mentally damaged recluse and Ikuko is his spokesperson, using his identity when talking to 'clients'.
That could be true, but I remember it being said in EP6 that Tōya never really met anybody and that Ange was an exception. So, whilst he made an exception with her, he was still not willing to face her. So, he probably used Ikuko as a spokesperson to rely what he wanted to tell her, answer some of her questions and at the same time, getting some news about how she's doing.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's a difference, hwoever, between "knowing everything" and "knowing enough to construct a proper game." not even Featherine knows everything but you say she can authorize a Game. Battler became the Territory Lord, though, and THAT certainly requires knowing the truth. Also Gold truth.
I was doing some small research, and it seems I'm wrong on the issue of a Game Master needing to be someone who knows the truth, but it's the same for territory lords, since Erika was territory lord for a while too, remember? Here, a quote from Lambda:
"Too bad, Erika. .........Just when you were finally appointed as the territory lord of this Fragment, you've been deprived of that title."

On the other hand, by re-reading EP5 I've noticed that GMs and TLs have to be appointed, and both Erika and Battler were appointed as such after they had defended their respective truths. Battler showed his knowledge of THE TRUTH by making use of the Golden Truth, I think.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
All of it. Bern says "I haven't gotten to do any real gamemastering yet" When Featherine goes to sleep.
That could simply mean she hadn't played a straight game. The first part was barely your usual game. In fact, nothing happened. All she did was basically lock everyone in one building so that Will could interview them all.

If we believe her when she said she wasn't the Game Master in the Tea Party, then that adds up to it.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Assuming she even knew it was possible for her to do before then. You can very easily make an arc for Bern and Lambda becoming more and more self-aware of what's going on as their characters develop.
The problem is Lambda already knows everything. Bern only knew the bits Lambda had told her until EP7, where she quite likely found out what actually happened.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The copyright thing was tongue in cheek, you know. But point is, he's the Territory Lord. He is the absolute master and God of Rokkenjima. If he says Bern can't make a game (under a worldview where meta-beings can give and take this authority), then he should be able to do so.
May I ask where was it said the TL was so powerful? As far as I know, a TL is someone who has been able to defend his truth on the matter of Rokkenjima. That's it. Hell, Lambda was above Erika, even when the latter became TL.

Of course, unlike Erika, Battler knew THE TRUTH. So, in terms of knowledge, he's more authoritative than Erika as a TL. However, if someone else proves equal knowledge as Battler, then there's little he can do if the other party wants to disclose the truth instead of keeping it sealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It seems implied that Beato's awareness can see things even through the corpse, and there's also Lion to consider. Point is, Bern is trampling on everything Beatrice held dear and stomping on everything Battler worked for. Her EP8 game didn't do this.
Actually, she did the same. In EP7's Tea Party she showed an scenario in which his immediate family ended up slaughtering his whole family. That's exactly the same thing she did in her game in EP8. Both were heartless scenarios.

Moreover, in EP7, it had been constantly repeated that Battler had been too late in arriving the truth and that's why Clair was in that state and it was Will who had to put her to sleep. So, I really think EP7's board was special in that sense, and I don't think BATTLER could have done anything about it.
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Old 2011-07-23, 13:36   Link #23339
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Quote:
It could be, definitely, but sadly the game is too vague in many areas to say when we're over-analysing.
I disagree. The game's not that vague so much as Tyukishi didn't think very hard about it.

Quote:
I bring Battler's absence to notice, due personal suspicion about Kyrie and Rudolph who could have been involved in this case from even before, rather than just being mere opportunists. If they were somehow involved with Yasu from before, Battler's absence in Lion's world could be a small hint, because Lion has no deep feelings for Battler, whereas in Yasu's worlds, Rudolph and Kyrie went an extra mile to persuade Battler in forgiving them.
That's implying that Rudolf and Kyrie give a shit about Yasu. EP7 suggests they don't.

Quote:
There's Rudolph telling Battler he had something to say to him in EP1 (which was written by Yasu before 1986's conference took place), EP7's Tea Party, Bern's game in EP8 and Ange's reaction to Eva's diary which lead me to think there may be something going on here. There's also Battler and Yasu/Beato being able to leave in a boat (but this could be explained by saying Kinzo gave the boats some maintenance, or that the boat simply happened to work and Yasu knew it) and they had gold with them.
I think it's pretty obvious Rudolf wanted to admit the baby switch. As for the boat, i felt Yasu had that prepared for whoever solved the Epitaph, so they didn't have to wait for rescue.

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But by EP6 (or even before) Tōya has, quite likely, already recovered his memories. Ikuko was there with him throughout his whole mental journey. It wouldn't be odd, at all, if he told her his story.
EP8's ending has him claim that he still doesn't remember everything, so I doubt it.

Quote:
I was doing some small research, and it seems I'm wrong on the issue of a Game Master needing to be someone who knows the truth, but it's the same for territory lords, since Erika was territory lord for a while too, remember? Here, a quote from Lambda:
"Too bad, Erika. .........Just when you were finally appointed as the territory lord of this Fragment, you've been deprived of that title."
Are you sure? I don't remember Erika ever being made the Territory Lord, only the Gamemaster. Gamemaster and Territory Lord aren't synonymous, for that matter.

Quote:
That could simply mean she hadn't played a straight game. The first part was barely your usual game. In fact, nothing happened. All she did was basically lock everyone in one building so that Will could interview them all.

If we believe her when she said she wasn't the Game Master in the Tea Party, then that adds up to it.
True, but in that case, does she really need the knowledge of the Truth to write what she did? She had Clair give her confession, then murdered her, then did a purple text puzzle game. Oooh.

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The problem is Lambda already knows everything. Bern only knew the bits Lambda had told her until EP7, where she quite likely found out what actually happened.
Lambda knows everything Beatrice knows, but does Beatrice know everything there is to know? There's a difference between understanding Rokkenjima and understanding the Meta-World that Beatrice/Toya constructed.

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May I ask where was it said the TL was so powerful? As far as I know, a TL is someone who has been able to defend his truth on the matter of Rokkenjima. That's it. Hell, Lambda was above Erika, even when the latter became TL.
Erika was never a Territory Lord as far as I recall. The Territory Lord is the absolute master of Rokkenjima, so Lambdadelta shouldn't have the authority to pass that around anyway. The Territory Lord is described as being the 'god' of the Gameboards, even moreso than the Gamemaster. To the point that the Siestas can't even target him. Not attack him and fail; they literally can't even ATTEMPT an attack.

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Of course, unlike Erika, Battler knew THE TRUTH. So, in terms of knowledge, he's more authoritative than Erika as a TL. However, if someone else proves equal knowledge as Battler, then there's little he can do if the other party wants to disclose the truth instead of keeping it sealed.
Right, but there's a difference between disclosing the truth and writing a Game to do so.

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Actually, she did the same. In EP7's Tea Party she showed an scenario in which his immediate family ended up slaughtering his whole family. That's exactly the same thing she did in her game in EP8. Both were heartless scenarios.
You're not getting the distinction. EP8 was a logical puzzle that was no more brutal than any other Game, where everyone dies anyway. EP7 was an exercise to break Ange's heart specifically and prove to Lion that no matter what he can never be happy. It's a matter of intent.

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Moreover, in EP7, it had been constantly repeated that Battler had been too late in arriving the truth and that's why Clair was in that state and it was Will who had to put her to sleep. So, I really think EP7's board was special in that sense, and I don't think BATTLER could have done anything about it.
Because Bern wrote it that way, but the Canon Author trumps the Fanfic Writer.

Regardless, I felt that Clair was a phantom of the Beatrice that died at the end of EP5. A lingering regret that needed to be resolved. Even if BATTLER did show up, he couldn't help her because it's not the Battler she knew in her lifetime.
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Old 2011-07-23, 15:31   Link #23340
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Anybody still working on that chess problem I posted? (If all else fails, try setting it up on a physical board.)
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