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Old 2011-07-22, 20:27   Link #14981
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'd say that even in theory if completely taxing the top 5% would solve the immediate deficit, the pervading belief that the government should be spending tax dollars as long as it thinks it has money to spend will still create a deficit. Mostly because a government would readjust it's spending when it's finances change.

So yeah justinstrife is right. As long as a government spends money every time it has anything in its wallet, it's always going to create a deficit.
And lets be honest here. When in history, have Republicans and Democrats actually spent within budget when dealing with the our tax money?

I will gladly take 20-40% of all of your incomes for the rest of your life, and distribute it 'fairly' for the good of this great forum. You can trust me guys. I can handle your money clearly better than you can, and it won't get 'wasted' I promise.
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Old 2011-07-22, 20:28   Link #14982
Ithekro
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1890s I think.
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Old 2011-07-22, 20:37   Link #14983
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Nope, 100% tax rate on the top 5% wage earners would solve the deficit problem completely, in theory.

Top 5% incomes average $250,000
115 million households in US, 5% of that is 5.75 million households
US deficit in 2011 roughly $1.3 trillion

So 100% taxes on top 5% of incomes is 5.75 mln x $250,000= $1.44 trillion, which would give a theoretical surplus on the federal budget.

Off course this is not a realistic example. High incomes would simply stop working or leave the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The aggregate income measures the combined income earned by all persons in a particular income group. In 2007, all households in the United States earned roughly $7.723 trillion.[26] One half, 49.98%, of all income in the US was earned by households with an income over $100,000, the top twenty percent. Over one quarter, 28.5%, of all income was earned by the top 8%, those households earning more than $150,000 a year. The top 3.65%, with incomes over $200,000, earned 17.5%. Households with annual incomes from $50,000 to $75,000, 18.2% of households, earned 16.5% of all income. Households with annual incomes from $50,000 to $95,000, 28.1% of households, earned 28.8% of all income. The bottom 10.3% earned 1.06% of all income.
At least in 2007, the agregated income of the top 5% must have been somwhere between 2.2 trillion $ and 1.35 trillion dollars. Since 3.65% is less than 1/2 of 8% but still 61% of the money, one could estimate that the top 5% income was something like > 1.5 trillion $. Now there was the dollar inflation since 2007... and all the bailout money that had to agregate somewhere, I think one could assume this sum to be in the 2 trillion $ region this year.
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Old 2011-07-22, 20:49   Link #14984
Ithekro
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Does any of that take into account the taxes that they already pay verses how much money the government spends and the amount it owes.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:14   Link #14985
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Do you have a link to your numbers? Because the numbers I see on the deficit alone, are 1.5 trillion or more for 2011. That's just for part of your post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Un...federal_budget
households:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/11s0059.pdf

deficit
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-budget-deficit-2011-7

income
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/11s0694.pdf
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

I've rounded the numbers, it's just to show that the income of the top 5% is roughly equal to the deficit. Don't think to much of it, more then half amount of tax revenue isn't even derived from income taxes.

The height of taxes is a powerfull tool in public finance. However I agree that neither the democrats or republicans are currently able to wield it effectively.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:18   Link #14986
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Does any of that take into account the taxes that they already pay verses how much money the government spends and the amount it owes.
No it doesn't I believe. My folks were in the top 4% up until 2008 when my dad retired officially. Use to hear daily about how much they paid in taxes and how much was still owed every year. What they were paying in taxes, was far more than my gross income at the time.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:22   Link #14987
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
And lets be honest here. When in history, have Republicans and Democrats actually spent within budget when dealing with the our tax money?

I will gladly take 20-40% of all of your incomes for the rest of your life, and distribute it 'fairly' for the good of this great forum. You can trust me guys. I can handle your money clearly better than you can, and it won't get 'wasted' I promise.
Isn't that Communism?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:31   Link #14988
Vexx
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Hopefully, its getting pretty clear to a majority of the voting public that both parties have been totally hijacked by a small cartel of interests who simply manipulate both lefty and righty folks while having nearly completed the goal of looting the treasury and gutting the ability of an elected government to conduct oversight. When they're done it will leave most of us trying to rebuild from scratch. Here we go in the US....
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:32   Link #14989
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Isn't that Communism?
Nah, it would be communism if you either got no money at all but could get all your daily needs for free. Or everyone got the exact same amount of money.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:34   Link #14990
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Latest from a police press conference:

Undetonated explosives found on Utøya.

Police confirms 10 dead on Utøya, but they expect the number to rise as they search the island.

They won't say anything about the suspect.

Quote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356
Norway police: 'Eighty killed' in island shooting
At least 80 people died when a gunman opened fire at an island youth camp in Norway, hours after a bomb attack on the capital, Oslo, police say.
holy crap thats a large number increase.
this seems to have been MUCH worse then originally suspected.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:34   Link #14991
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Nah, it would be communism if you either got no money at all but could get all your daily needs for free. Or everyone got the exact same amount of money.
I thought that general idea with regards to a "communist income" is to "take money from everyone for the best of their interests".
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:39   Link #14992
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Hopefully, its getting pretty clear to a majority of the voting public that both parties have been totally hijacked by a small cartel of interests who simply manipulate both lefty and righty folks while having nearly completed the goal of looting the treasury and gutting the ability of an elected government to conduct oversight. When they're done it will leave most of us trying to rebuild from scratch. Here we go in the US....
You mean Wall Street? Or something more specific?
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Old 2011-07-22, 21:56   Link #14993
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
You mean Wall Street? Or something more specific?
Not just Wall Street, but the Politicians, and their Lobbyists. It's a multi-headed snake we are facing in this country.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:03   Link #14994
RandySyler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
You mean Wall Street? Or something more specific?
More so of the banks (i.e. George Soros), lobbyists, and massive corporations that get complete tax breaks from the government rather than Wall Street.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:18   Link #14995
Xion Valkyrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
And lets be honest here. When in history, have Republicans and Democrats actually spent within budget when dealing with the our tax money?

I will gladly take 20-40% of all of your incomes for the rest of your life, and distribute it 'fairly' for the good of this great forum. You can trust me guys. I can handle your money clearly better than you can, and it won't get 'wasted' I promise.
My family already pays 28% for Frederal and 7% for State, and we wouldn't mind paying a bit more to help the US get out of the current situation. A 5% increase really doesn't affect us that much, and shouldn't affect anyone over the 250k bracket either.

What I am mad about is how those who are in the 500k+ categories use tax loopholes to pay SIGNIFICANTLY less than what they should be paying. I wouldn't mind them lowering taxes on the upper bracket if they can enforce that those people are actually paying what they should be paying.

Cuts in government funding hurts the middle class the most. Look at how much school tuition fees have hiked up in the last 2-3 years. Most middle class families would need to pay more than 30-40% of their income to pay for their child's tuition because they're not low income enough to qualify for financial aid.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:29   Link #14996
synaesthetic
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Yeah, pretty soon only rich people are going to be able to send their kids to college. Tuition is going up so much that it's barely possible even with financial aid. I'm having to borrow so much money it's ridiculous, and I'm still stuffed into a tiny bedroom in a tiny apartment with a bunch of other students in a bad part of town.

And don't even get me started about how often the shit gets delayed. Most of the time I don't even get my books until a month after the semester has started. I would gladly work a part-time job to supplement my income, but I can't. Nobody will hire me, so stuff your "free market" where the sun don't shine, justinstrife. I know you'll say some stupid crap about "living off the government teat." I wouldn't, if I had a choice. Do you think I like relying on money that's frequently late, delayed, unpredictable and has to be paid back with interest?

This country's so fucked economically that I had no choice but to go back to school and rely on financial aid, simply to survive. I have a lot of skills even without school, and I'm ambitious and a hard worker. But nobody cares anymore. You have to have a degree to get a job scrubbing toilets these days.

So yeah, I do what I have to in order to stay alive. What's the alternative, suicide? Screw that.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:39   Link #14997
RandySyler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Yeah, pretty soon only rich people are going to be able to send their kids to college. Tuition is going up so much that it's barely possible even with financial aid. I'm having to borrow so much money it's ridiculous, and I'm still stuffed into a tiny bedroom in a tiny apartment with a bunch of other students in a bad part of town.

And don't even get me started about how often the shit gets delayed. Most of the time I don't even get my books until a month after the semester has started. I would gladly work a part-time job to supplement my income, but I can't. Nobody will hire me, so stuff your "free market" where the sun don't shine, justinstrife. I know you'll say some stupid crap about "living off the government teat." I wouldn't, if I had a choice. Do you think I like relying on money that's frequently late, delayed, unpredictable and has to be paid back with interest?

This country's so fucked economically that I had no choice but to go back to school and rely on financial aid, simply to survive. I have a lot of skills even without school, and I'm ambitious and a hard worker. But nobody cares anymore. You have to have a degree to get a job scrubbing toilets these days.

So yeah, I do what I have to in order to stay alive. What's the alternative, suicide? Screw that.
We aren't in a free market, our economy is corportism and with the lobbyists and tax breaks it can even be argued that we are in corporate statism somewhat. This is NOT what free market capitalism is, and it certaintly didn't cause our problems. Corruption within the government did.
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:55   Link #14998
justinstrife
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I agree about closing loopholes on the rich. I don't believe I've ever stated otherwise. Republicans and Democrats alike have complicated the tax system so badly in their favor, it's pathetic.

And that's nice that you wouldn't mind paying 5% more of your income to help the Government out. I however, would not if I had a choice. Which I don't. The Government gets far too much of my money, and that of other people as it is. The majority of the Middle Class already believe we're taxed too much, and we do not want to contribute more of our money, or anyone else's tax payer money to the Government.

synaesthetic: You want to complain about the cost of tuition and school, dig into where all of that education money goes every year. Start with all of the bureaucracy that goes on in school, as well as the salaries of teachers... And the fact that I have to pay for people like you to go to school, pisses me off to no end. I have no children, I'm not in school myself, but am trying to make it on my own in life, and I have to subsidize you. Yeah lets make life all that much more difficult for people in the middle class.

And I agree with Randy completely...
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Old 2011-07-22, 22:57   Link #14999
Xion Valkyrie
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The ideal way out of this situation would be to have future generations be educated enough to actually vote based on logic, not rhetoric, and hold politicians to the standard they should be adhering to. Unfortunately with the way education seems to be going, I doubt that's going to happen.

The other way is if the corporations and lobbyists realize that not placating the masses will eventually lead to violent a uprising. We're not quite there yet, but at the rate that things are going, it's can't be ruled out. Unfortunately, it'd seem most of them are too profit oriented to see past anything beyond the next quarter's profits.
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Old 2011-07-22, 23:06   Link #15000
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
holy crap thats a large number increase.
this seems to have been MUCH worse then originally suspected.
One guy killed 80 person with just gun...
Are we talking about someone with much training and carrying a arsenal or what ?
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