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Old 2011-07-22, 23:07   Link #15001
Ithekro
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Was it just one guy with a gun, or were explosives involved? Cause from what shooting I've done...that's a lot of bullets to try and get out...plus moving targets...plus the chance that people are going to be attempting to stop you (and you needing to prevent them from stopping you, which means either lots of loaded guns, lots of clips, or really good intimidation skills).
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Old 2011-07-22, 23:26   Link #15002
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I agree about closing loopholes on the rich. I don't believe I've ever stated otherwise. Republicans and Democrats alike have complicated the tax system so badly in their favor, it's pathetic.

And that's nice that you wouldn't mind paying 5% more of your income to help the Government out. I however, would not if I had a choice. Which I don't. The Government gets far too much of my money, and that of other people as it is. The majority of the Middle Class already believe we're taxed too much, and we do not want to contribute more of our money, or anyone else's tax payer money to the Government.
It depends if the middle class is defined as those making 200,000 or 100,000 a year. Personally that not very middle class to me. And I think everyone no matter the money they make will bitch and complain about how the government is taking there hard earned money. Whether it a 1000 or 10,000 in taxes they'll be equally as indignigant about their money being "wasted".

It's like they don't use anything that the government provides like the highway, public transportation, garbage collection, etc. A lot of people contribute to program that they themselves will never benefit from. That is part of being a society.

Quote:
synaesthetic: You want to complain about the cost of tuition and school, dig into where all of that education money goes every year. Start with all of the bureaucracy that goes on in school, as well as the salaries of teachers... And the fact that I have to pay for people like you to go to school, pisses me off to no end. I have no children, I'm not in school myself, but am trying to make it on my own in life, and I have to subsidize you. Yeah lets make life all that much more difficult for people in the middle class.

And I agree with Randy completely...
Personally I think if people are so repelled about contributing to the future of American society then they should get the hell out. Somalia has no real government to hound these poor victims. They can go there and live the sweet life. Some people today are just American when it doesn't cost them anything but when they have to contribute or sacrifice they blanch.

I think teachers get a bad rap. Certainly there are a few with some issues but the do a decent job for piss poor pay. If you think teachers are making bank you're delusional. If you cut their pay more down all your going to do is lose more of the qualified ones who will find better paying jobs not that we already aren't. And in the end of it they get treated like shit and everything that goes wrong with a children has to do with them, not the apathetic parents who spend most of their days more concerned with making a buck than rearing their children.
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Old 2011-07-22, 23:56   Link #15003
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
One guy killed 80 person with just gun...
Are we talking about someone with much training and carrying a arsenal or what ?
don't know all the details.
apparently, it was a guy with a gun, lots of ammo, and an almost completely isolated environment to operate in for a prolonged period of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Was it just one guy with a gun, or were explosives involved? Cause from what shooting I've done...that's a lot of bullets to try and get out...plus moving targets...plus the chance that people are going to be attempting to stop you (and you needing to prevent them from stopping you, which means either lots of loaded guns, lots of clips, or really good intimidation skills).
most of the dead were teens in the 14-18 range.
how good your intimidation skills are rarely a factor when your victims are children.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:10   Link #15004
Echoes
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Hi, I'm from Norway, and I've been doing pretty much nothing except following this story today, so I'll tell you what I know.

Explosives were planted at the camp, but were not detonated. All of the killings were done with guns. He's known to own a rifle, a handgun and a shotgun, but I've not seen reports on which of these he used, except for the handgun. Witnesses have also said that they saw an automatic weapon.

I'll just give a brief description of the situation for those who don't know, and perhaps to shed some light on why he was able to carry it out on such a large scale.

The people at the camp were almost exclusively teenagers or very young adults. The perpetrator came disguised as a police officer, using the explosion in Oslo as an excuse to perform a routine security procedure. It should also be stated that most people in Norway do not own guns, and certainly one would not bring one to a summer camp. The act of murder, and even violent crime, is incredibly low; people are not used to it, and do not expect it. It is also important to understand that this was a tiny, tiny island, used almost exclusively for camp activities. There were not many places to run. He is not known to have any military training, except for the mandatory 1 year military service that is mandatory (though fairly easy to get out of if you really want to) in Norway. I've read that he enjoyed hunting, but strangely only on English-speaking news sites, so I cannot vouch for its veracity.

He was motivated by an extreme right-wing nationalistic ideology. More specifically, he is said to be an anti-internationalist. Norway's current government is liberal, and the youth political camp he attacked was organized by The Norwegian Labor Party (Arbeiderpartiet; AP for short.)

The eye-witness testimonies that have been released thus far are almost unbelievable. He is said to have acted in a very calm and composed manner, showing no mercy. At one point he was situated on top of a cliff, firing at people who had thrown themselves into the ocean, attempting to swim away from the island. People were running over corpses and hiding desperately under rocks, seaside caverns and so forth.

It goes without saying that this is an unprecedented event in Norwegian history, but this will also be, if I'm not mistaken, the largest killing spree by any individual in modern history. And that's without accounting for the fact that the number will probably rise through the night as the waters are searched for corpses. This cowardly butchering of innocent youngsters will go down in history.

Lastly, I have some personal information about the shooter, if anyone for some reason want to know. He plays World of Warcraft, likes classical music. He also started his own ecological farm a couple of years ago, and it is suspected that he used this business as a way to get his hands on high quantities of fertilizers (I'm not sure if this is the correct term in English) which he might have used to assemble the explosives. Lastly, he admired Winston Churchill and Max Manus. (The latter is a Norwegian war hero famous for his resistance and sabotage operations during World War II.) A friend of his has reported that he became a right-wing extremist in his late twenties. He is now 32. He was also seen in Oslo when the explosion went off, and the police see clear links between the two events. It is at this point unknown (or unreleased, at least) if he had assistance or acted alone.

If you got any questions, feel free to ask.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:16   Link #15005
sa547
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All I can say is that this sociopath used the Columbine solution for his personal problems, and looks more like he installed the bombs before making the run to the camp. More likely the police or the army might have to put him out of his misery with bullets, but I prefer him to be alive and needed to face the scrutiny of the world.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:18   Link #15006
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
If you got any questions, feel free to ask.
just one.
how the fuck does a guy who's supposedly extremely nationalistic justify murdering nearly 100 of his own nations children ?
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:22   Link #15007
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
just one.
how the fuck does a guy who's supposedly extremely nationalistic justify murdering nearly 100 of his own nations children ?
Ask your neighbour. They have been doing the same, except that they send their children to tehir deaths in bomb vests instead of shooting them outright.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:29   Link #15008
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
If you got any questions, feel free to ask.
Which incident occurred first -- the Oslo bombings, or this...massacre?

Are the speculations regarding the link between the two incidents coming from only the media or from police statements?

And if it means anything, please be safe.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:46   Link #15009
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Ask your neighbour. They have been doing the same, except that they send their children to tehir deaths in bomb vests instead of shooting them outright.
touché,
but still, thats not the same as killing your own country's children on mass.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:46   Link #15010
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
It depends if the middle class is defined as those making 200,000 or 100,000 a year. Personally that not very middle class to me. And I think everyone no matter the money they make will bitch and complain about how the government is taking there hard earned money. Whether it a 1000 or 10,000 in taxes they'll be equally as indignigant about their money being "wasted".

It's like they don't use anything that the government provides like the highway, public transportation, garbage collection, etc. A lot of people contribute to program that they themselves will never benefit from. That is part of being a society.



Personally I think if people are so repelled about contributing to the future of American society then they should get the hell out. Somalia has no real government to hound these poor victims. They can go there and live the sweet life. Some people today are just American when it doesn't cost them anything but when they have to contribute or sacrifice they blanch.

I think teachers get a bad rap. Certainly there are a few with some issues but the do a decent job for piss poor pay. If you think teachers are making bank you're delusional. If you cut their pay more down all your going to do is lose more of the qualified ones who will find better paying jobs not that we already aren't. And in the end of it they get treated like shit and everything that goes wrong with a children has to do with them, not the apathetic parents who spend most of their days more concerned with making a buck than rearing their children.
We taxpayers pay taxes and fees to use the highways in the way of gas tax, car registration fees, etc. We already pay for what we use. Waste disposal? We pay that every single month. Most Middle Class do not use public transportation. I don't. We have our own vehicles to travel with(and again we pay for those services through taxes and fees).

Not surprised that you would show up and be responding to my posts. Considering you and I are complete opposites on our view of America and it's citizens.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:49   Link #15011
Echoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
just one.
how the fuck does a guy who's supposedly extremely nationalistic justify murdering nearly 100 of his own nations children ?
I'd like to know as well. Its a blatant contradiction on the face of it, but he probably has a perverse justification in his own mind. (Liberals aren't really my countrymen, these kinds of folk are corrupting the country and must be purged for the true spirit of the country to rise ect.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Which incident occurred first -- the Oslo bombings, or this...massacre?

Are the speculations regarding the link between the two incidents coming from only the media or from police statements?

And if it means anything, please be safe.
The Oslo bombings occurred first. The police issued the statement that the events were very likely linked, eyewitnesses claim to have seen the perpetrator on the scene of the explosion, wearing his false police uniform there as well. There's another press conference being held in 10 minutes, more information might surface, though it's the Prime Minister speaking, not the police, so I'm not sure if it'll be technical information or more of a morale speech

It does mean a lot to know that people care. Thanks.
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:55   Link #15012
Kamui4356
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Damn, when I had head about this earlier, I in no way expected a body count like that. One guy killed 80 people? Are they sure he didn't have accomplices?
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Old 2011-07-23, 00:57   Link #15013
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I'd like to know as well. It seems like a blatant contradiction, but he probably has a perverse justification in his own mind. (Liberals aren't really my countrymen, these kinds of folk are corrupting the country and must be purged for the true spirit of the country to rise ect.)
"the liberals are corrupting Norway, but what can be done about it" ?

"I've got it"
"i'll promote MY ideals in the public eye by murdering dozens of Norwegian children"
"thats BOUND to make people understand how wrong the Liberals are"

I know its been said that Norway has no death sentence, but can't they make an exception just this once ?
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:01   Link #15014
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
just one.
how the fuck does a guy who's supposedly extremely nationalistic justify murdering nearly 100 of his own nations children ?
The same way the Oklahoma City bomber was able to kill his fellow Americans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

So is this guy the Norwegian equivalent of Timothy McVeigh?

Also note that most victims of Islamic terrorism are Moslems.

Terrorists always strike their own people the hardest.
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:02   Link #15015
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
synaesthetic: You want to complain about the cost of tuition and school, dig into where all of that education money goes every year. Start with all of the bureaucracy that goes on in school, as well as the salaries of teachers... And the fact that I have to pay for people like you to go to school, pisses me off to no end. I have no children, I'm not in school myself, but am trying to make it on my own in life, and I have to subsidize you. Yeah lets make life all that much more difficult for people in the middle class.

And I agree with Randy completely...
There's so much fail in this statement I can't even wrap my mind around it.

You do realize that it's in this country's best interest to have me as an economic asset rather than an economic burden, right? An engineer is a lot more useful to the economy of the nation than a burger-flipper.

Trust and believe if I could put myself through school, I would be doing so. Trust and believe that if I could be working a full-time job right now, I would be doing so.

I cannot. I have spent THREE YEARS LOOKING FOR WORK. I have found nothing. So I do what I can. I root Android devices and jailbreak iPhones and do spyware removal for grocery money, but that's not enough to even pay rent, much less my books, tuition, campus fees, transportation, etc.

I bust my fucking ass just to stay alive so idiots like you can scream and holler about tax cuts for people who spend more money on an Armani suit than I spend in an entire year.

If you don't want to be part of society, then leave society. Go live in the woods like the fucking Unabomber. And you do understand that what I'm getting are loans, right? They have to be paid back, with interest.

Holy doodoo you and your teabagger buddies are such d-bags it makes my ears burn.

"SCREW YOU, I GOT MINE" amirite?
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:06   Link #15016
Echoes
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Damn, when I had head about this earlier, I in no way expected a body count like that. One guy killed 80 people? Are they sure he didn't have accomplices?
They are sure that there were no accomplices in the actual shooting. He might have worked with people in producing, planning and planting the bombs, but he was caught alone on the island, and none of the witnesses have mentioned any other shooters, so it is extremely unlikely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
I know its been said that Norway has no death sentence, but can't they make an exception just this once ?
That's not going to happen, though I would be lying to say that I don't share your sentiment deep down.

Edit: Against the death penalty in general, but yes, exceptions are tempting when dealing with monsters who indiscriminately slaughter over 80 young people.
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Last edited by Echoes; 2011-07-23 at 01:17. Reason: Just for the record
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:10   Link #15017
justinstrife
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I work 60 hours a week or more, depending on the work load. I've had one vacation in over 6 years, and have one day off a week through-out. Hell I was working before I had my driver's license 15 years ago. And I'll be working until I'm 80 the way our Government is fucking everything up for the rest of us. So pardon me if I don't feel sorry for you and your story. Yes keep calling us names if it makes you feel better. Must make you feel like a big man using the words tea baggers, douche-bags, etc. Meanwhile, the people you support keep ripping the rest of us off, then keep wanting more of what we've worked for every year. Because you obviously are entitled to our labor.

Yes sir master. Let me work another 10 hours this week for you. Whatever you say Master. I'm just a worker who exists for you. No Master, I don't need that over-time pay, you can have it for whatever you think is worthy.
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:13   Link #15018
Ithekro
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Can I laugh at the contrast in opinions on the system within just a single State in the Union? A state I live in no less. I don't think any other state can even come close to understanding California.

Funny thing is I can and do see both sides of the arguement and both are valid. All depends on ones own situation. (And prehaps point of view)
Also I'm starting to think this is actually the plan, to make us argue with each other more than unify against any common cause. Whatever that cause might be.

But then Americans do have problems unifying on anything that isn't an external threat...internal threats are much more difficult for us to combat due to our extreme differences of opinion that we have every right to have.
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:29   Link #15019
synaesthetic
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I work 60 hours a week or more, depending on the work load. I've had one vacation in over 6 years, and have one day off a week through-out. Hell I was working before I had my driver's license 15 years ago. And I'll be working until I'm 80 the way our Government is fucking everything up for the rest of us. So pardon me if I don't feel sorry for you and your story. Yes keep calling us names if it makes you feel better. Must make you feel like a big man using the words tea baggers, douche-bags, etc. Meanwhile, the people you support keep ripping the rest of us off, then keep wanting more of what we've worked for every year. Because you obviously are entitled to our labor.

Yes sir master. Let me work another 10 hours this week for you. Whatever you say Master. I'm just a worker who exists for you. No Master, I don't need that over-time pay, you can have it for whatever you think is worthy.
Begone, troll. People like you make me want to finish school, save up as much as possible, and take myself and my degree in electronic engineering and get the hell out of this screwed up country.

I'm sure plenty of countries would love to have an EE they didn't even have to pay to educate!

Wouldn't that be awesome? I could stick you guys with the bill for my education and you wouldn't even benefit from it!

Edit: Oh yeah, I'm not a man. That just makes you even more pissed-off, doesn't it?
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:44   Link #15020
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I work 60 hours a week or more, depending on the work load. I've had one vacation in over 6 years, and have one day off a week through-out. Hell I was working before I had my driver's license 15 years ago. And I'll be working until I'm 80 the way our Government is fucking everything up for the rest of us. So pardon me if I don't feel sorry for you and your story. Yes keep calling us names if it makes you feel better. Must make you feel like a big man using the words tea baggers, douche-bags, etc. Meanwhile, the people you support keep ripping the rest of us off, then keep wanting more of what we've worked for every year. Because you obviously are entitled to our labor.

Yes sir master. Let me work another 10 hours this week for you. Whatever you say Master. I'm just a worker who exists for you. No Master, I don't need that over-time pay, you can have it for whatever you think is worthy.
I can't really understand this. Basically we've gotten to the point where uplifting other Americans, we're not even taking illegal immigrants anymore, is somehow abhorrent to people. When a society won't even contribute to other members of it then it begins to crumble.

It's great you did all those things. Take pride it in but I don't see the point of using it to look down on others. We all have different life situations. Things aren't simple in which we are all born with the same challenges and follow the same road but I think society should contribute to helping everyone and their is a moral obligation for those who are in a situation to help uplift others to do so.
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