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Old 2011-07-23, 19:32   Link #23341
cronnoponno
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Lambdadelta did say ''territory lord'' to Erika.


But I don't think that there is a the territory lord. There is a ''Lord of this territory''.

Beatrice's territory is the Endless Cat Box of Rokkenjima, but other witches have different territories that they are their own lords of. I believe their territory rather refers to what their title implies rather than an actual Fort or base.

Bernkastel makes a comment in the EP 1 tea party how she doesn't wish to intrude on Beatrice's territory(obvious lie is obvious), the TIPS also say that a voyager witch has abandoned their previous territory.

How that mixes up with Lambda telling Erika she was a temporary TL can probably be explained if I think about it long enough...

Also, I'm rereading the scene now for any better quotes, and Bernkastel herself said that she claims Erika is the temporary ''Master of the sealed-off Rokkenjima''.

Quote from Lambda after her saying what Used Can quoted:

''The new territory lord of this fragment is Ushiromiya Battler. ....*giggle*, is it awful? Hey, hey, don't you feel just awful?!? How's it feel to be deprived of that title when you finally got it?!?How's it feel?!?''

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-23 at 19:51.
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Old 2011-07-23, 20:40   Link #23342
AuraTwilight
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Is there another quote referencing Erika as a Territory Lord? Because in that moment Battler was also proclaimed Gamemaster, a title that WAS given to Erika. Lambdadelta might be switching pronouns in a way that's acceptable in Japanese but kind of awkward in English.
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Old 2011-07-23, 22:16   Link #23343
cronnoponno
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Is there another quote referencing Erika as a Territory Lord? Because in that moment Battler was also proclaimed Gamemaster, a title that WAS given to Erika. Lambdadelta might be switching pronouns in a way that's acceptable in Japanese but kind of awkward in English.
To answer your question, only Erika herself did, when she demands them to fire at BATTLER, they say they are unable to target the territory lord. In which she responds: ''And who is the territory lord?!? ME!!''

But I can't deny she said something while meaning something else.
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Old 2011-07-23, 23:05   Link #23344
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I honestly remember "Gamemaster" in these quotes being mentioned. I'll have to read for myself unless someone wants to get screenshots.
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Old 2011-07-24, 06:16   Link #23345
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Just started and finished Umineko (up to where WH translates to at least) over this last couple of weeks, and thought I would join in on the discussion.

I'm going to start with complaints, but that doesn't mean I didn't like it; it means I care enough to complain about it, which means that I liked it a lot.

Not really happy with the whole ShKanon or Shannontrice thing, much less ShKanontrice. With regards to ShKanon, aside from the narrative always depicting them as different people, it seems too unlikely that this Yasu person could get away with multiple identities in a small, closed, social circle over the span of years. Maybe Genji and some other people like Nanjo and Kumasawa knew about it, allowed it, and facilitated it (perhaps even Jessica too), but it's hard to imagine Natsuhi or Krauss to be either unaware, or aware yet accepting, of such eccentric behavior. What really bugs me about it, is that it's not as though I missed all the signs that they were the same person, but I simply thought that such an idea made no sense. As for Shannontrice, there just wasn't enough established between Battler and Shannon in EP 1-5; Shannon was clearly all about George. Besides, I liked the bullying Beatrice best anyway.

So what is the general consensus on the death of Nanjo in EP 3 with all that crazy red that EVA-Beatrice spewed? Is the culprit:
1) EVA-Beatrice? But wasn't it red-texted that Battler was watching Eva so that it was impossible for her to commit Nanjo's murder? Did Eva change entities and become unwatched as EVA-Beatrice? It doesn't seem likely.
2) YASU-Beatrice? Isn't YASU-Beatrice supposed to be canceled once Eva solved the epitaph, not to mention that the epitaph murders were already completed anyway outside of the big kaboom at the end? Not to mention that this would mean EVA-Beatrice calling YASU-Beatrice a human in red text. It's a possible answer, but it depends on a certain interpretation of how red text works.
3)Shannon or Kanon "resurrected"? Resurrection (of the personalities of) Shannon and Kanon fits Beato's EP3 narrative pretty well, suggesting that the resurrection magic at the end of EP3 wasn't just noise; particularly in this case, Kanon's relationship to Jessica would be relevant. However, EVA-Beatrice red-texts shortly after Nanjo's death that Kanon and Shannon are dead; I suppose that could be explained by a very short-lived "resurrection" that lasted only to some point in the brief period between Nanjo's death and EVA-Beatrice's red-text declaration. Actually, now that I've organized my thoughts on this, I think this is the answer that makes the most sense. The biggest problem is that it's difficult to imagine a good motive for Shannon or Kanon killing Nanjo, and then there's the fact that any and all Yasus should know that the whole place was gonna blow in a few minutes anyway.

As for red text itself, it seems somewhat inconsistent. On the one-hand it can be used for subjective beliefs, such as calling someone incompetent, or declaring personalities as "dead". However, Battler was unable to state a false fact in red even when he didn't know that it was false (that Asuma was his mother). Yet something so flexible could lead to logic errors?
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Old 2011-07-24, 07:38   Link #23346
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Maybe battler found out but refused to accept it?
I mean, it sound kinda suspicious, and Battler did know Kyrie already before Kyrie married Rudolf.
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Old 2011-07-24, 10:12   Link #23347
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Just started and finished Umineko (up to where WH translates to at least) over this last couple of weeks, and thought I would join in on the discussion.

I'm going to start with complaints, but that doesn't mean I didn't like it; it means I care enough to complain about it, which means that I liked it a lot.

Not really happy with the whole ShKanon or Shannontrice thing, much less ShKanontrice. With regards to ShKanon, aside from the narrative always depicting them as different people, it seems too unlikely that this Yasu person could get away with multiple identities in a small, closed, social circle over the span of years. Maybe Genji and some other people like Nanjo and Kumasawa knew about it, allowed it, and facilitated it (perhaps even Jessica too), but it's hard to imagine Natsuhi or Krauss to be either unaware, or aware yet accepting, of such eccentric behavior. What really bugs me about it, is that it's not as though I missed all the signs that they were the same person, but I simply thought that such an idea made no sense. As for Shannontrice, there just wasn't enough established between Battler and Shannon in EP 1-5; Shannon was clearly all about George. Besides, I liked the bullying Beatrice best anyway.

So what is the general consensus on the death of Nanjo in EP 3 with all that crazy red that EVA-Beatrice spewed? Is the culprit:
1) EVA-Beatrice? But wasn't it red-texted that Battler was watching Eva so that it was impossible for her to commit Nanjo's murder? Did Eva change entities and become unwatched as EVA-Beatrice? It doesn't seem likely.
2) YASU-Beatrice? Isn't YASU-Beatrice supposed to be canceled once Eva solved the epitaph, not to mention that the epitaph murders were already completed anyway outside of the big kaboom at the end? Not to mention that this would mean EVA-Beatrice calling YASU-Beatrice a human in red text. It's a possible answer, but it depends on a certain interpretation of how red text works.
3)Shannon or Kanon "resurrected"? Resurrection (of the personalities of) Shannon and Kanon fits Beato's EP3 narrative pretty well, suggesting that the resurrection magic at the end of EP3 wasn't just noise; particularly in this case, Kanon's relationship to Jessica would be relevant. However, EVA-Beatrice red-texts shortly after Nanjo's death that Kanon and Shannon are dead; I suppose that could be explained by a very short-lived "resurrection" that lasted only to some point in the brief period between Nanjo's death and EVA-Beatrice's red-text declaration. Actually, now that I've organized my thoughts on this, I think this is the answer that makes the most sense. The biggest problem is that it's difficult to imagine a good motive for Shannon or Kanon killing Nanjo, and then there's the fact that any and all Yasus should know that the whole place was gonna blow in a few minutes anyway.

As for red text itself, it seems somewhat inconsistent. On the one-hand it can be used for subjective beliefs, such as calling someone incompetent, or declaring personalities as "dead". However, Battler was unable to state a false fact in red even when he didn't know that it was false (that Asuma was his mother). Yet something so flexible could lead to logic errors?
I think a lot of people weren't satisfied with the whole Yasu thing, it requires a massive suspension of disbelief for it to work out in regards to Rokkenjima Prime. In the stories though, go hog wild, anything could happen as long as the author wants it to happen.

As to who killed Nanjo, the most likely answer was always whoever Shannon/Kanon really was. I mean you could construct an alternate scenario using some of the information in that episode but Im pretty sure RK07 just wants to pin everything on Yasu.
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Old 2011-07-24, 11:12   Link #23348
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
3)Shannon or Kanon "resurrected"? Resurrection (of the personalities of) Shannon and Kanon fits Beato's EP3 narrative pretty well, suggesting that the resurrection magic at the end of EP3 wasn't just noise; particularly in this case, Kanon's relationship to Jessica would be relevant. However, EVA-Beatrice red-texts shortly after Nanjo's death that Kanon and Shannon are dead; I suppose that could be explained by a very short-lived "resurrection" that lasted only to some point in the brief period between Nanjo's death and EVA-Beatrice's red-text declaration. Actually, now that I've organized my thoughts on this, I think this is the answer that makes the most sense. The biggest problem is that it's difficult to imagine a good motive for Shannon or Kanon killing Nanjo, and then there's the fact that any and all Yasus should know that the whole place was gonna blow in a few minutes anyway.
Because of the bank account number written on the parlor door, I think it's reasonable to believe that Beatrice was aware that Eva had solved the epitaph at that point, regardless of whether she was earlier, so I think she would have turned off the bomb. Eva probably reactivated it herself on her way to Kuwadorian to destroy the evidence of the massacre.

That being the case, I think the only reasonable motive for her (or anyone else) to kill Nanjo at this point is that she believes he is the culprit, either because she actually saw him kill somebody, or because she kept an eye on the survivors and reasoned it out. Which would be a pretty sensible conclusion, actually; Nanjo's alibi for the murders after the first twilight is just as nonexistent as Eva's, and besides her he was the only person who could have relocked all the guesthouse windows after George, Natsuhi, and Krauss snuck out.

A case can probably also be made that the one who killed Nanjo was a dying Kyrie, and Beatrice just snuck Jessica away to safety in the confusion, but it's fairly difficult to imagine that Kyrie stayed conscious and mobile that long after being shot.

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As to who killed Nanjo, the most likely answer was always whoever Shannon/Kanon really was. I mean you could construct an alternate scenario using some of the information in that episode but Im pretty sure RK07 just wants to pin everything on Yasu.
There was an interview, I think, where Ryuukishi said that EP3 was a game in which things went completely sideways for the overall culprit. She had to have considered what to do if the epitaph was solved, so it's more likely that what went wrong was something like a second murderer.
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Old 2011-07-24, 12:13   Link #23349
Cao Ni Ma
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There was an interview, I think, where Ryuukishi said that EP3 was a game in which things went completely sideways for the overall culprit. She had to have considered what to do if the epitaph was solved, so it's more likely that what went wrong was something like a second murderer.
The issue is who? It really seems possible that Nanjo or Eva where culprits or accomplices. There is sufficient circumstantial evidence to pin it on either of them. The problem I had with both Eva and to a lesser degree Nanjo is that they both where under direct suspicion of Battler and he points it out.

Another issue is that if Yasu did kill Nanjo, was aware that Eva had solved the riddle and was still alive by the end of the Nanjo slaying then why didnt she come clean like she did in ep7? Battler might not have gotten himself shot by Eva had Yasu come out and explain what had happened. ( Although Yasu would probably have gotten a face full of lead shortly after)

Although I'd love to hear Nanjo's confession to the crimes in EP3, his motive would probably be hilarious.
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Old 2011-07-24, 13:22   Link #23350
cronnoponno
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I don't see what's wrong with Shkannontrice, I gasped at EP6's final red truth, and gasped even more during EP 7 when Claire-Yasu-Beatrice said she'd make Shannon a brother, and now when I think about it....Kanon really was never adressed(and in the scenes where he is adressed, Shannon seems to be absent), I don't think I've read a scene where they were both, at the same time, recognized as people at the same time, save for Genji and Kumasawa.


My problem is how confusing it was when I first read it, to be honest I didn't expect it to be a mystery, the friend who introduced it to me didn't say anything about it. As I was reading, it was awesome how the atmosphere built up in EP 1, I loved it. EP 2 confused me, because it basically ''pretended EP 1 was like a different dimension'', I was like ''What the hell, isn't Rosa dead? In fact why are George and Shannon going out?', and then I finally lost all sense of direction when Battler was talking to Beatrice in the Meta World(keep in mind, I still thought all of this was awesome).

This repeated itself until I started posting on this thread and hearing everyone's opinion and thoughts about the meta world and everything, which gradually caused it to make a little more sense. I thought the Meta-Battler was the dead Battler from Episode 1, or at least, not dead but was actually whisked away to the meta world, and, while Beatrice's magic is real, for it to stay real it has to be proved correct.


I still enjoyed it though, even with all the confusion.
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Old 2011-07-24, 13:22   Link #23351
LyricalAura
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Another issue is that if Yasu did kill Nanjo, was aware that Eva had solved the riddle and was still alive by the end of the Nanjo slaying then why didnt she come clean like she did in ep7? Battler might not have gotten himself shot by Eva had Yasu come out and explain what had happened. ( Although Yasu would probably have gotten a face full of lead shortly after)
She may not have had time to. I got the impression that Eva killed Battler almost immediately after the time of Nanjo's murder, so Yasu would have been busy with Jessica at that point.

Also, Yasu being busy is a good reason why she couldn't have been responsible for Krauss and Natsuhi's murders. She was on her way to the mansion with George at that time, wasn't she?

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Although I'd love to hear Nanjo's confession to the crimes in EP3, his motive would probably be hilarious.
Oh, but we heard his motive, didn't we? "I have a sick granddaughter!"
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Old 2011-07-24, 13:43   Link #23352
Cao Ni Ma
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We didnt even know the existence of that sick grand daughter till ep7 right?!

But the Nanjo killer theory in regards to Krauss and Natsuhi would kinda work if they still had some shred of trust in him. He might have convince them it was all fake and that everyone was waiting in the gazebo to trick Eva or something. So they came out with him and got strangled.

Ultimately I dont think it was him though. As I envision the scenario, Eva would have bolted out the door and Battler would follow at safe distance without her noticing. Nanjo and Jessica would stay behind. Culprit comes out and shoots Nanjo, shortly after that shots Jessica as well. Battler would have heard the first shot and would start running back, since he is closer he arrives first. Eva follows and finds him inside the room with Jessica and Nanjo dead. Wolf and sheep puzzle, Eva shoots Battler thinking he's the culprit.
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Old 2011-07-24, 13:50   Link #23353
LyricalAura
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We didnt even know the existence of that sick grand daughter till ep7 right?!
Sure we did. That line is what he said when he begged Eva-Beatrice for his life at the end of EP3.

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Ultimately I dont think it was him though. As I envision the scenario, Eva would have bolted out the door and Battler would follow at safe distance without her noticing. Nanjo and Jessica would stay behind. Culprit comes out and shoots Nanjo, shortly after that shots Jessica as well. Battler would have heard the first shot and would start running back, since he is closer he arrives first. Eva follows and finds him inside the room with Jessica and Nanjo dead. Wolf and sheep puzzle, Eva shoots Battler thinking he's the culprit.
If they both heard a gunshot and Battler didn't have a gun, why would Eva assume Battler was the murderer?
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Old 2011-07-24, 14:02   Link #23354
rogerpepitone
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I think Umineko wants to be like this chess problem:



White to play and mate in 1.

(Try working it out on your own. I'll explain more afterwards.)
Anybody still working on this?
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Old 2011-07-24, 14:08   Link #23355
Cao Ni Ma
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Sure we did. That line is what he said when he begged Eva-Beatrice for his life at the end of EP3.
A fantasy scene?


Quote:
If they both heard a gunshot and Battler didn't have a gun, why would Eva assume Battler was the murderer?
I think its easier to believe that he hid the weapon than it is to believe that one of the people that she thought was dead was still alive and killing people in the island.
I mean its either that or she's an actual unrepentant cold blooded murderer and killed him just to keep him quiet or something.


e- Small question, what phrase is used in the original japanese version when describing that scene. That is Nanjo's death and how Battler, Jessica and Eva where incapable of doing it?
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Old 2011-07-24, 14:15   Link #23356
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Yeah, I'm back again and I'm still fighting a flu I contracted in London and I'm fighting the masses of new entries here...
No matter what I found another interesting thing that might spark another part of the debate, as it seems we're still arguing mostly about EP3 (it really is one of the most difficult ones).

Spoiler for Screenshot size:

I found this on a blog.
While I agree that the Umineko anime could have done better technically Ryűkishi never said anything was wrong. And something like this is something that would have to be a major screwup...as it would include somebody drawing another set of corpses on the same background, which is work that is usually avoided.

It would imply that both Kyrie and Rudolph to be moved after their death. So that actually does leave time for one of them to commit at least the murder of George. The question that's left is, why was Rudolph's corpse moved? He was staked in the forehead which is something that can't be faked that easily.

Oh and yes, here's the Forgery Author Test, so anybody can have a try...would be nice to have an actual thread for that, but there are probably enough already.
I haven't filled it out completely yet, because I'm currently rereading EP5 and 6.
Spoiler for Forgery Author Test:
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Old 2011-07-24, 14:38   Link #23357
Cao Ni Ma
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Ah shit, Maria is Hachijou Ikuko

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-07-24 at 15:09.
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:11   Link #23358
LyricalAura
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A fantasy scene?
Yes, but one that comes as a package with "Kanon's" reappearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
e- Small question, what phrase is used in the original japanese version when describing that scene. That is Nanjo's death and how Battler, Jessica and Eva where incapable of doing it?
For Eva and Battler:
After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision.
Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.


For Jessica:
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room.
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder.
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder.

From that, incidentally, we can establish that the culprit had a gun and shot Nanjo from outside the room.

Oh, and here's something interesting. The reason Kyrie changed her mind (about going to the mansion) was not told to anyone, nor was it written down. Rudolf is included in "anyone", isn't he? So doesn't that make the theory that she went with Rudolf to confront Hideyoshi collapse?

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It would imply that both Kyrie and Rudolph to be moved after their death. So that actually does leave time for one of them to commit at least the murder of George. The question that's left is, why was Rudolph's corpse moved? He was staked in the forehead which is something that can't be faked that easily.
Is it just me, or does it look like the stake was pulled out of Rudolf's head in that second image? If so, you'd think there'd be a big puddle of blood there.

Another oddity is that in order to stake Rudolf in the head, he would need a pre-existing gunshot wound to stab into, but he's got blood on his chest and back too... How many times was he actually shot?
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-07-24 at 16:23.
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:20   Link #23359
Cao Ni Ma
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Does the japanese version use the words "Nanjo's Murder" though, this is pretty key to the idea that Nanjo was a culprit and was murdering people. If Yasu killed Nanjo because she believed that he was a culprit and it would stop further killings by him then it wouldn't be a murder now would it?
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:22   Link #23360
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It's still a murder, although a potentially justified one.
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