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Old 2011-07-24, 05:03   Link #2861
Waven
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Join Date: Apr 2008
I've kinda gotten used to the fact that manga/anime use psychology as a means to push forward the story or introduce certain situations. Rarely is it realistic and credible but is based on myths and popular belief about the human mind.

@KLGChaos: Can you find me where the part about what SK originally planned for Yuki is mentioned please because I can't really believe that without proof.

Yuki acts a little out of proportion but if actual rape was the only option for Yuki not to look like a drama queen then I'd still choose the current state - I don't think I could've continued reading the series if it turned out she was actually raped. If that was the case "alternative Yuki" would be in an extreme emo and angst state she is now starting from chapter 1 , heck, she wouldn't even have the nerve to talk to Utsumi, not to mention proposing to counsel him about love.

To me GE would've just turned out to be another depressing series like Bitter Virgin, which I know many people really liked, but which I personally would never touch.
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Old 2011-07-24, 05:28   Link #2862
Mahou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waven View Post

To me GE would've just turned out to be another depressing series like Bitter Virgin, which I know many people really liked, but which I personally would never touch.
BV was amazing because the rapesh!t happend before the story took place. If it had happened during the course if it, I would have never touched it. Raepfail = Epicfail is my way of thinking on this.

@Main heroine switching: The problem with it is, that the looong development of YukixUcchi would be nothing more than wasted space unless Yuki alone would get some salvation (in terms of generally be more bright-moodish" outwards) out of it.
As much as I love Shou-sama, her coming back would be "meh". SK gave her an epic farewell as a love rival and I fear that any more love-related appearances will only result in us seeing her crying (I hated it how she suffered in those chapters )
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Old 2011-07-24, 06:10   Link #2863
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waven View Post
I've kinda gotten used to the fact that manga/anime use psychology as a means to push forward the story or introduce certain situations. Rarely is it realistic and credible but is based on myths and popular belief about the human mind.

@KLGChaos: Can you find me where the part about what SK originally planned for Yuki is mentioned please because I can't really believe that without proof.

Yuki acts a little out of proportion but if actual rape was the only option for Yuki not to look like a drama queen then I'd still choose the current state - I don't think I could've continued reading the series if it turned out she was actually raped. If that was the case "alternative Yuki" would be in an extreme emo and angst state she is now starting from chapter 1 , heck, she wouldn't even have the nerve to talk to Utsumi, not to mention proposing to counsel him about love.

To me GE would've just turned out to be another depressing series like Bitter Virgin, which I know many people really liked, but which I personally would never touch.
Sorry, Waven. You'll have to ask Rainrir for it. He's the one who originally clued me in and is definitely a reliable source. I guess the tankobon that describes Yuki says that she was intended to have a darker past (doesn't specifically mention rape, but I don't know how much darker you can get) and was part of the Kendo club. She wore her Kendo armor as a symbolic means to protect herself. However, Sasuga's editor said it was a no go and she had to tone it down and apparently, he was also the one who suggested the tennis club instead.

Here is Rainrir's original quote in reply to me on OM:

"It is highly likely that the original setting has a rape scenario involved. This is alluded towards in the character design notes, where Yuki was supposed to be a Kendo Club member (who feels secure only in her armor) instead and the statement that Yuki's past was supposed to be far darker. The editor shot that down (and suggested the Tennis club thing).

I once argued with another psychology student (on mangafox ironically) on how realistic is Yuki linking this associative trauma (her life being destroyed, loss of trust in everyone) with the action of sex is. The conclusion is that it is unlikely IRL, but possible (people make irrational associations all the time). I swear someone will call me a poser again for raising this point. However, my view is that the current events are a carry over from the original setting...Kei already intended for this to eventually happen since day one."


I believe someone may have posted them in the GE fanclub at one point. I'll see if I can find it.
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Old 2011-07-24, 06:47   Link #2864
Waven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Sorry, Waven. You'll have to ask Rainrir for it. He's the one who originally clued me in and is definitely a reliable source. I guess the tankbon that describes Yuki says that she was intended to have a darker past (doesn't specifically mention rape, but I don't know how much darker you can get) and was part of the Kendo club. She wore her Kendo armor as a symbolic means to protect herself. However, Sasuga's editor said it was a no go and she had to tone it down and apparently, he was also the one who suggested the tennis club instead.

Here is Rainrir's original quote in reply to me on OM:

"It is highly likely that the original setting has a rape scenario involved. This is alluded towards in the character design notes, where Yuki was supposed to be a Kendo Club member (who feels secure only in her armor) instead and the statement that Yuki's past was supposed to be far darker. The editor shot that down (and suggested the Tennis club thing).

I once argued with another psychology student (on mangafox ironically) on how realistic is Yuki linking this associative trauma (her life being destroyed, loss of trust in everyone) with the action of sex is. The conclusion is that it is unlikely IRL, but possible (people make irrational associations all the time). I swear someone will call me a poser again for raising this point. However, my view is that the current events are a carry over from the original setting...Kei already intended for this to eventually happen since day one."


I believe someone may have posted them in the GE fanclub at one point. I'll see if I can find it.
Now that I read it I actually remember this post by Rainrir but I guess unconsciously I never agreed with the darker past equals rape theory, although objectively it seems quite possible.
It also makes sense that Yuki's current state and trauma level could derive from that initial concept of a "darker past" although I'm not sure Kei then had planned for Yuki to desperately overcome her trauma by having sex. That would make less sense than it does now (there is some reason behind it though)

Still, I'm glad her editor made Kei write GE conforming to "shounen standards" since I personally choose ShoRoms for a reason, which is their usually standardized light-heartedness whereas seinen series I choose very very carefully. I wouldn't have given a "seinen-GE" a snowball's chance in hell.

So despite some edges in writing here and there I'm happy I don't have to miss out on a still highly entertaining series.
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Old 2011-07-24, 07:31   Link #2865
recover
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i didnt find eri's behavior unexpected at all..irrational, illogical, "jumping the gun" etc...sounds perfectly normal for a emotional/easily angered teenage girl (and perfectly characteristic of Eri)

at that point, all eri (and her friends) knew was that her best friend, Yuki, was depressed about something. automatically they assume its about Utsumi, given past situations. they then hear he is at another girls apartment.

of course they will assume hes some sort of cheat that broke Yukis heart

clearly they are wrong, as it is ENTIRELY yuki's fault for the scenario.


her running away upon witnessing utsumi...eating with this other girl, just demonstrates how weak she is. shes unable to be confrontational about the situation b/c deep inside, she knows she brought it upon herself in a way. typical girl, typical teenager...

i still support a yuki ending, as it doesnt seem too logical to write anyone else into the story at this point... but that doesnt mean i dont really like her behavior at all thus far
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Old 2011-07-24, 15:22   Link #2866
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
@Main heroine switching: The problem with it is, that the looong development of YukixUcchi would be nothing more than wasted space unless Yuki alone would get some salvation (in terms of generally be more bright-moodish" outwards) out of it.
As much as I love Shou-sama, her coming back would be "meh". SK gave her an epic farewell as a love rival and I fear that any more love-related appearances will only result in us seeing her crying (I hated it how she suffered in those chapters )
Now, lets not forget about Shuffle!. I've seen this argument before, and I just don't agree with it. I feel that as long as a character moves forward in some way, whether it's by himself or with another, then it has meaning. There are plenty of times IRL that we do things only to end up back at square one. We have relationships only for those relationships to be broken apart, but we still remember the fun times as well as the painful times(hopefully more of the former than the latter). I think that's what counts most. He could suddenly end up with Risa for all I care, so long as he uses his past experiences to seize the future. And if Yuki is not a part of that future, then so be it, though I could see it being a problem with people who expect, as Wave puts it, "shounen standards" from this, which is logical given its genre.
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Old 2011-07-24, 15:44   Link #2867
Mahou
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Now, lets not forget about Shuffle!. I've seen this argument before, and I just don't agree with it. I feel that as long as a character moves forward in some way, whether it's by himself or with another, then it has meaning. There are plenty of times IRL that we do things only to end up back at square one. We have relationships only for those relationships to be broken apart, but we still remember the fun times as well as the painful times(hopefully more of the former than the latter). I think that's what counts most. He could suddenly end up with Risa for all I care, so long as he uses his past experiences to seize the future. And if Yuki is not a part of that future, then so be it, though I could see it being a problem with people who expect, as Wave puts it, "shounen standards" from this, which is logical given its genre.
Shuffle! was quite enjoyable
/played only the Visual Novel

That's what I meant more or less . As long as some form of development - eg. be it a lesson-learnt-effect or someting else - is obtained by switching the main girl after relationship no. x did not work (let's disregard how possible this scenario actually would be), it will probably turn out fine.
In Yuki's case: Despite not being with Ucchi, she could obtain/re-obtain her cheerful-self + her trust in men in terms of dating
For Ucchi: A relationship requires each partner to maintain it + it's not always like in a fantasy
By now I don't really care with whom he ends with as long as both are geniunely happy (I'm that "oldfashioned") + the transition towards it is somewhat logical. I admit to have grown tired of Yuki, though despite of having felt with her when her past was finally revealed.
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Old 2011-07-24, 15:54   Link #2868
KLGChaos
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There's no way to keep everyone happy when switching heroines. So many people are attached to the first girl mentality that they always seem to overlook the flaws and get angry when someone better comes along (Suzuka is a perfect example). However, if done well, I think many people can be assuaged. The girl that is switched to must be given proper development, though, as much as the first girl if not more.

So far, I have not seen a manga do it successfully. Heck, I'm not even sure I've seen a manga even try. For an example of how NOT to handle a second love interest, look no further than KNIM. Though Asuka was obviously not going to be switched to in Seo's Ebaverse, her complete lack of development and loss of personality are a perfect representation of how to fail at handling a second relationship. The story would have been a lot more interesting if she was properly developed before being ceremoniously dumped as it wouldn't have been a predictable mess.
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Old 2011-07-24, 17:12   Link #2869
recover
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^completely agree. esp about asuka in KNIM. what a god awful poor way to handle that...
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Old 2011-07-24, 22:30   Link #2870
DragoZERO
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Late to the party but chapter ninety was fuuuuuunny.

That editor really needs to shut up though, damn.
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Old 2011-07-25, 03:23   Link #2871
Mentar
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
So far, I have not seen a manga do it successfully. Heck, I'm not even sure I've seen a manga even try. For an example of how NOT to handle a second love interest, look no further than KNIM. Though Asuka was obviously not going to be switched to in Seo's Ebaverse, her complete lack of development and loss of personality are a perfect representation of how to fail at handling a second relationship. The story would have been a lot more interesting if she was properly developed before being ceremoniously dumped as it wouldn't have been a predictable mess.
You seriously like this disaster better than KNIM? Like, for real? Wow

Sorry. Compared to wet noodle Utsumi, give me Haruto any day.
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Old 2011-07-25, 03:24   Link #2872
Merilyn Mensola
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My girlfriend, after reading this chapter, she become sad...
damn...Utsumi look like the most unlucky person in the world....
the best thing at this time,Utsumi don't follow Yuki...because,Yuki's reaction to seeing Utsumi with another girl,shows that she loves him,but,if they come back together now, and she meet Thouru..probably, her reaction will be to dump Utsumi again..
maybe it's better that Yuki has a face to face with Thouru, only in this way, she understand if she come back with him, or understand, is Utsumi, the right person for her..Utsumi will do anything for her,but if before she not becomes clear with herself..what makes Utsumi ..will not work..
Anyway, I hope that Mei, take the Utsumi's defenses,because surely he, in this situation, will do nothing,Unfortunately, we all know Utsumi, and we know he has a weak character..for me,is time for him to become stronger,a man..but this author, just like to put Utsumi in situation like this....

Really,Eri............................
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Old 2011-07-25, 04:09   Link #2873
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merilyn Mensola View Post
My girlfriend, after reading this chapter, she become sad...
damn...Utsumi look like the most unlucky person in the world....
the best thing at this time,Utsumi don't follow Yuki...because,Yuki's reaction to seeing Utsumi with another girl,shows that she loves him,but,if they come back together now, and she meet Thouru..probably, her reaction will be to dump Utsumi again..
maybe it's better that Yuki has a face to face with Thouru, only in this way, she understand if she come back with him, or understand, is Utsumi, the right person for her..Utsumi will do anything for her,but if before she not becomes clear with herself..what makes Utsumi ..will not work..
Anyway, I hope that Mei, take the Utsumi's defenses,because surely he, in this situation, will do nothing,Unfortunately, we all know Utsumi, and we know he has a weak character..for me,is time for him to become stronger,a man..but this author, just like to put Utsumi in situation like this....

Really,Eri............................
If Yuki and Utsumi will be back together, you're right that if she meets Tohru again in the meantime, she'll dump Utsumi without batting an eye because she'll see Tohru has been "redeemed" only to be proven horribly wrong. But, Utsumi shouldn't follow her anyways because even if Tohru doesn't show up, Yuki will end up dumping Utsumi again because he's too nice, and she won't be able to stand his kindness and abstinence, thinking she's a nuisance and is holding him back. It's better if the two simply stay away from each other because regardless of anything, it will end badly. I'm all for Mei right now.

While it's true that Utsumi needs to man up, he also needs to realize that what happened was by no means his fault, and I'm afraid that everyone else's reaction will convince him otherwise. The biggest problem here is that both Mei and Utsumi lack credibility in front of Eri and the others. From their pov, Utsumi an idiot and a cheater for hanging out with another girl. Mei only knows what Utsumi could have told him, and they already don't respect her anyways. The only way for them to truly realize Yuki's at fault is if Yuki's the one to tell them everything, and I doubt they'll get anything out of her because it's too painful for her and they'll just take pity and dislike Utsumi more, thinking he must've done something terrible. People can say Utsumi is weak all they want, but I tend to think that Yuki's even weaker, especially compared to what she made herself out to be in the beginning.
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Old 2011-07-25, 04:10   Link #2874
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You seriously like this disaster better than KNIM? Like, for real? Wow

Sorry. Compared to wet noodle Utsumi, give me Haruto any day.
Well some poeple like this more and think its more 'realistic' though for me personally its just another overly melodramatic soap opera based on misunderstandings.

And yeath Utsu is a limp noodle compared to Haruto, but at the same time Haruto is much easier to hate though (or maybe because) he has more spine differently from Utsu (though cant say he is really manly like in that cooking for another guy who stole his girlfriend part).

But Utsu is like that kicked around little puppy with wide teary eyes - he gets a lot of love for always being hurt by others and staying innocent at the same time. And like an good obedient dog always crawls back begging for forgiveness just because he is such a kind pup.
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:16   Link #2875
Merilyn Mensola
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You seriously like this disaster better than KNIM? Like, for real? Wow

Sorry. Compared to wet noodle Utsumi, give me Haruto any day.
Utsumi has nothing with Haruto...

Utsumi is a good guy, he know, a girl he likes... he tries to treat her as best he can, he tries to make her feel better, he can..but this girl, (Yuki).....

Haruto...hahaha...him is always like to 'start of the manga..,first he liked the girl who was in class with him, then after Eba, Eba dump Haruto .. and Haruto with Asuka ... and for what?Haruto and Asuka.. no development,then Eba returns, and Haruto dump Asuka...With these words : please, break up with me..i found the girl i like...hahaha...

Utsumi is a guy who cries and becomes unsafe for little, but is a good boy...is 1000 times better than Haruto.
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:41   Link #2876
Lexxus
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The talked suddenly shifts to KNIM
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Old 2011-07-25, 06:18   Link #2877
Merilyn Mensola
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Originally Posted by Waven View Post
I've kinda gotten used to the fact that manga/anime use psychology as a means to push forward the story or introduce certain situations. Rarely is it realistic and credible but is based on myths and popular belief about the human mind
i agree with you...is for this i don't want read manga with romance, drama ecc..but, my girlfriend like this..and she want read togheter..but really, it would be nice if the various situations, were more realistic..like you said..
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Old 2011-07-25, 07:13   Link #2878
Waven
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You seriously like this disaster better than KNIM? Like, for real? Wow

Sorry. Compared to wet noodle Utsumi, give me Haruto any day.
To be fair this comes down to taste, so I disagree. Both series are weekly, quite successful and both spark a lot of controversy, especially regarding their respective male and female leads.
For some people the male lead is most important, for some the female. Some want a decent plot, some just look for ecchi art. Many people want all of the mentioned aspects and even more. There are many reasons to like one of the series more than the other - none of the reasons, however, can be objectively indentified as better executed by one of them.

Personally I enjoy both series (the old-fashioned way, not the twisted hate-for-entertainment way). Sometimes GE is currently more enjoyable, sometimes KNIM is.
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Old 2011-07-25, 13:16   Link #2879
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You seriously like this disaster better than KNIM? Like, for real? Wow

Sorry. Compared to wet noodle Utsumi, give me Haruto any day.
As Waven said, it's a matter of taste. GE follows a bit more of a rational thread than KNIM, which I enjoy. Too much in KNIM just makes me go "WTF?", while at least in GE I can understand where the characters are coming from.

Though, I'll agree that Utsumi needs to man up a bit. He definitely has some issues. I still like him more than Haruto in the end because he doesn't treat everyone around him like dirt and so far, he's been shown to be a very honest person who actually listens to his friend's advice, even if it's something he may not want to hear, contrary to Haruto who sometimes seems to not be able to stop lying and sneaking around. Plus, Utsumi tends to learn and grow from his life experiences. Haruto is stuck in place and has been since chapter 1.
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Old 2011-07-25, 13:53   Link #2880
jzmagic
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Chapter 91 is boring if the spoilers are true.
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