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Old 2011-07-24, 16:25   Link #23361
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by ArcticHelm View Post
It's still a murder, although a potentially justified one.
Incorrect, there are differences between a justified killing and a murder. The state doesnt murder death row inmates, soldiers dont murder other soldiers (when acting within the rules of war)
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:35   Link #23362
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Incorrect, there are differences between a justified killing and a murder. The state doesnt murder death row inmates, soldiers dont murder other soldiers (when acting within the rules of war)
Legally there's a difference, but they're both still referred to as "satsujin" and "tasatsu" in Japanese as far as I'm aware.
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Old 2011-07-24, 17:31   Link #23363
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To be murder, if has to be pulled off due to extreme emotional feelings, be it hate, love, whatever. Any reason that motivates them to do it, or meditation beforehand. In the Army they change a lot of words to make us feel better. Well, this is just in the U.S, I'm not sure how Japan sees it.


If X kills Y to protect Z, X has then committed murder.

If X kills Y and Z because X feels like it, X has just slaughtered two people.

If X kills Y because Y knows X's secret that will break X's relationship with Z, it's murder.

If X plans to kill Y or Z beforehand, then performs the action, it's murder.


If it's just ''for the hell of it'', it's slaughter.


I'm pretty sure that's how it is anyway.
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Old 2011-07-24, 17:57   Link #23364
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Anybody still working on this?
I just sent you a message about it. I was kinda hoping you'd just explain it by now.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
A fantasy scene?
If I'm not mistaken, the sick grandchild is reinforced by Ange's talk with Nanjo Jr. in EP4. Of course, we learn later that Nanjo had already recieved rather healthy sums of money from both Kinzo and Kratsuhi, so that kid must've been really fucking sick.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Oh, and here's something interesting. The reason Kyrie changed her mind (about going to the mansion) was not told to anyone, nor was it written down. Rudolf is included in "anyone", isn't he? So doesn't that make the theory that she went with Rudolf to confront Hideyoshi collapse?

Is it just me, or does it look like the stake was pulled out of Rudolf's head in that second image? If so, you'd think there'd be a big puddle of blood there.

Another oddity is that in order to stake Rudolf in the head, he would need a pre-existing gunshot wound to stab into, but he's got blood on his chest and back too... How many times was he actually shot?
About Kyrie's motive - not necessarily. It's possible she got Rudolf to join her venture on a "just trust me" sort of thing - she's his advisor, and he acknowledges that she's smarter than him, so it's not hard to think that he'd go along with most anything she suggests.

About blood on Rudolf's body, well,one must recall this is a world where people don't get wet in the rain, and everyone is an absolutely perfect marksman. I'm in favor of the idea that Rudolf and Kyrie were killed in a gunfight of some sort, but I think it would've been mentioned by Battler at the time if they'd been shot up all over.
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Old 2011-07-24, 23:00   Link #23365
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Anybody still working on this?
I suck at chess, mind giving me a bit more info?(I don't think this will spoil the answer.)

Which direction must the black pawns go?
The kings are E6 and E8 correct? If F4 a queen?
Can uh, you use a king to put another king in check, or does that cancel out because you'd technically be putting yourself in check?

If the blacks are supposed to go towards 8, then the H3 knight would solve it i think, moving it to G5 would put it in check, and I do not believe there is an escape route. Or does ''White to play'' mean it's blacks turn?

On second thought, f4 to g4 seems to be legit as well.
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Old 2011-07-24, 23:05   Link #23366
rogerpepitone
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Black pawns are moving down the board (towards the 1 rank).
The kings are at E6 and E6. F4 is a queen.
A player may not end his turn in check. So the kings can not stand where they attack each other.
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Old 2011-07-24, 23:12   Link #23367
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This is a waste of a post, but can I assume that ''mate'' means ''check mate'', and not ''Stale Mate''? Also, the answer isn't something like the earlier mentioned ''flip the chessboard'' solution right?

No that wouldn't work, after all it's not like you're obligated to move the king...

Hm, I'll try to work it out later, so far I've seen that there are 18 pieces, which leads me to believe that remembering something from Umineko will give me the answer, but that will take to long and it's only a possibility at best. I believe I tried all the combinations, but I cannot deny that I can't see a move that I've overlooked, this is kinda hard....

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-24 at 23:30.
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Old 2011-07-25, 00:04   Link #23368
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Don't know if this is legit but, I turned the "chessboard" and did it.
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Old 2011-07-25, 07:21   Link #23369
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u just need to move the queen ._. isn't it?
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Old 2011-07-25, 08:29   Link #23370
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Eva's alibi in ep3 is actually much better than Nanjo's. Eva was with the other adults, so she would have to reason that none of them are the murderers (they might be accomplices, but by the time Nanjo is killed they're all dead so Eva wouldn't be concerned about that). If the deaths happened when they say they did and the adults stayed up all night like they say they did, none of them can be the killer. This probably explains why they feel safe arming each other; they all assume the others are innocent because they were with them.

Nanjo has no alibi whatsoever. It's never even mentioned where Nanjo is, and he never says. So if you're Eva, um, yeah I'd be kind of suspicious of him by the time it's down to me, Battler, Jessica, and him.

But Eva can't have killed Nanjo anyway.
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I don't see what's wrong with Shkannontrice, I gasped at EP6's final red truth, and gasped even more during EP 7 when Claire-Yasu-Beatrice said she'd make Shannon a brother, and now when I think about it....Kanon really was never adressed(and in the scenes where he is adressed, Shannon seems to be absent), I don't think I've read a scene where they were both, at the same time, recognized as people at the same time, save for Genji and Kumasawa.
Kanon is completely extraneous and the story would be the same, or better, without him.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Oh, and here's something interesting. The reason Kyrie changed her mind (about going to the mansion) was not told to anyone, nor was it written down. Rudolf is included in "anyone", isn't he? So doesn't that make the theory that she went with Rudolf to confront Hideyoshi collapse?
It is not strictly necessary that Kyrie actually tell Rudolf that's what she was planning to do. Besides, they're partners in crime, who's to say he didn't figure it out on his own without needing to be told?
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
To be murder, if has to be pulled off due to extreme emotional feelings, be it hate, love, whatever. Any reason that motivates them to do it, or meditation beforehand. In the Army they change a lot of words to make us feel better. Well, this is just in the U.S, I'm not sure how Japan sees it.
Your distinction is between "killing" and "murder" essentially. However after looking at this a while ago I don't think Ryukishi cares about the semantic distinction between the two and any time he mentions a "murder" he could also be referring to a "killing." I don't think he means to attach culpability deductions to those descriptors.
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Old 2011-07-25, 08:57   Link #23371
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Spoiler for Chess problem:


Incidentally, if we're talking about episode 3, does anyone else think that Eva's key move after the second twilight murders was stealing Maria's handbag? I mean, that handbag Rosa's has sleeping pills in it, which would explain how Eva could strangle Krauss and Natsuhi without resistance (sleeping pills knock them out, handbag's handle to strangle them with). Doesn't help so much for twilights 4/5/6 though as there didn't seem to be an obvious opportunity for her to administer the pills (although we know from the end of ep2 that the handbag can be a great bludgeoning weapon, so maybe she knocked Kyrie and Rudolf out individual with surprise attacks?).

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Kanon is completely extraneous and the story would be the same, or better, without him.
Surely it's what you'd call a "hint". Without someone apparently pretending to be two people you'd probably never even start to think about the possibility that Shannon has other personas in the story.
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Old 2011-07-25, 09:49   Link #23372
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Surely it's what you'd call a "hint". Without someone apparently pretending to be two people you'd probably never even start to think about the possibility that Shannon has other personas in the story.
See, you'd think that, but it's not true. If that were what Kanon is actually doing, that'd be a hint, but that isn't actually the function he serves.

The only logical reason you'd conclude one person is two people is "Battler never sees them together." However, that's an extremely meta interpretation and the only reason most people believed it is that they'd already seen the author do something similar. At the time, that was the sole evidence that Kanon served any such function in the story; indeed, in ep1-4 he appears to serve particular narrative ends, but those are largely distinct from Shannon's (who, herself, appears to serve particular narrative ends, but has stronger evidence that she's behind the scenes doing things).

There is no evidence anywhere that actually demonstrates there is a person pretending to be two people. Even "Human Beato" in ep2 was often theorized to be another person, not necessarily even in disguise (i.e. "Beatrice" was just Shannon was one theory, which was apparently close to the mark but not quite there). There is no evidence to suggest, say, that somebody has changed clothes (a necessity to a Ninja Shkanon theory). Or that Shannon or Kanon is doing something that only Kanon or Shannon was supposed to know about or do.

Take Kanon out of ep1-4. What do you lose?
  • Someone else would have to be involved with the chain lock trick in ep1, but Genji is there and there's more than enough time for almost anyone to have done something.
  • Kanon's death in ep1 wouldn't have happened, but his death was also not particularly necessary. Narratively, it can be skipped.
  • The subplot with Shannon in ep2 (which could be implemented another way to suggest something's different about Shannon), and the romance with Jessica (which literally has no purpose but shipping to the overall story).
  • Kanon's position in the ep3 chain of closed rooms. Not necessary because as long as Shannon is the first found, she can do the exact same trick. Kanon's slot can easily be filled by Nanjo or anyone really.
  • Kanon basically doesn't even need to exist in ep4. Nothing he does is important to the story. The red about him being the ninth victim is apparently completely irrelevant if ep7 and ep8 are to be believed, so that wound up appearing to be a critical reasoning hint that went absolutely nowhere.
I mean... come on man. You lose more critical narrative details removing Hideyoshi from the story, and Hideyoshi barely even does anything.

Kanon is pointless. Ryukishi basically acknowledged this in his treatment of him in ep7-8. The only conclusions I can even draw about why he's there are: shipping, poorly executed cheap trick, and pandering to Higurashi fans.

Someday I should post my list of characters I would completely excise from Umineko. Most of them are magic characters, but I'd totally cut Kanon too. Ryukishi's need for an editor is kind of obvious I think.
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Old 2011-07-25, 10:22   Link #23373
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[*]Someone else would have to be involved with the chain lock trick in ep1, but Genji is there and there's more than enough time for almost anyone to have done something.
Woah, so you're saying Kanon isn't necessary if you completely change the culprit in episode one? Surely you could strike out any literary character if you're allowed to rewrite the story.

The closed room trick requires that the culprit is an insider (ie they haven't already faked their death). If Shannon had just faked her death in the rose shed the second twilight trick would be impossible without just getting an accomplice to do it. I guess maybe you could change it around so Shannon doesn't die in the rose garden and instead dies like Kanon in the boiler room, but a) Who would be the substitute? and b) I think the 5th twilight trick required Shkannon to be in Kanon mode.

Incidentally, I don't think it would be possible without heavy modification to have the ep1 scene where Battler first meets Kanon (in which he's almost certainly taking the corpse of Kinzo back to the mansion) and the scene where Battler first meets Shannon (crucial hint about the method of destroying Beatrice which you must "grasp with your own hands").

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[*]Kanon's death in ep1 wouldn't have happened, but his death was also not particularly necessary. Narratively, it can be skipped.
Now I disagree here. I think it's a hint at the hole in Yasu's chest (ie Kanon stuck the stake into his old wound). Removing his death would be removing a hint at the "heart" of the story (I guess the hint's repeated in episode 2, but without Kanon you wouldn't get that either).

I'd say Kanon does a lot of important stuff in episode 2. Y'know, like die, come back to life, turn into Shannon to threaten Gohda etc.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]Kanon's position in the ep3 chain of closed rooms. Not necessary because as long as Shannon is the first found, she can do the exact same trick. Kanon's slot can easily be filled by Nanjo or anyone really.
Actually, no. While the original trick can be performed with Shannon alone, she wouldn't be able to lead Jessica to safety by pretending to be the ghost of Kanon in the way she does towards the end of ep3 (that scene wouldn't be the same if it were ghost Shannon).

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]Kanon basically doesn't even need to exist in ep4. Nothing he does is important to the story. The red about him being the ninth victim is apparently completely irrelevant if ep7 and ep8 are to be believed, so that wound up appearing to be a critical reasoning hint that went absolutely nowhere.
If some version of the love question is actually being asked, Shannon would need the ability to become Kanon in order to put it to Jessica.
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Old 2011-07-25, 10:38   Link #23374
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You wouldn't have to change culprits. And yes, you'd have to rewrite some things. That doesn't mean that something that's in a book is necessary. Nor does it mean the book wouldn't be better without it.

Also now is probably a bad time to mention that Jessica is another of the characters I'd remove.
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Old 2011-07-25, 10:53   Link #23375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Incidentally, if we're talking about episode 3, does anyone else think that Eva's key move after the second twilight murders was stealing Maria's handbag? I mean, that handbag Rosa's has sleeping pills in it, which would explain how Eva could strangle Krauss and Natsuhi without resistance (sleeping pills knock them out, handbag's handle to strangle them with).
I don't remember that clearly. Were there actually sleeping pills in Maria's handbag? If yes it would actually be a huge benefit to the two culprit theories which I can apply to EP3.
The main suspects to me are Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie by now. It would be nice if there was a way to go without Eva as a culprit at all (even though I thought differently before), but I can't make much sense of the Krauss/Natsuhi murder without her.
Assuming that at least Kyrie, if not both of them, somehow faked their death and killed George in the mansion, many things make more sense. But if Rudolph actually killed Rosa and Maria, which is certainly possible, did he actually sneak out of the mansion, all the way to the guesthouse and drugged the coffee that Eva prepared somehow and strangled them after she had left for the bathroom?
This is especially problematic because it would require highly believable make up for Rudolphs head wound including the stake...this is not something like Kyrie walking a few meters with a stomach wound and shooting George.
The only other solution I could think of would be Yasu actually killing Rosa and Maria and later returning to the guesthouse, killing Natsuhi and Krauss, and taking George with her...though that seems like quite a heavy task.

Really, the more I think about it the more terrible of a puzzle EP3 becomes.
I have actually started accepting the several culprit theory...but it's the little details that make my head hurt.
Like, why were Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi and Krauss staked? Who was able to be in possession of sleeping pills to drug Natsuhi and Krauss? Who had enough time to drag the former outside?

I really have to rethink my EP3 theory...
Though by now I think it's more important that Eva-Beatrice said that she controlled Kyrie when she made her go to the mansion than I thought before.

Quote:
Take Kanon out of ep1-4. What do you lose?
I agree with you that Kanon made some things more difficult than they actually had to be, but I thik he was of some use to the theories formed during the first 4 Episodes.
  • He was the corpse that was never found (implying a double identity or survival)
  • He was one of the first hints towards the ungendered Beatrice
Those are not the biggest parts of the whole plot, but it was quite important. Otherwise it would have been harder to give out certain hints webbed into the script (also Kanon showing Hideyoshi the ring or him vowing to fight Beatrice in EP1)...these are small parts, but he actually does serve a role.
The biggest problem is his huge connection to the cousins via Jessica, which makes him much to important to just regard him as a role.

I think by now we have to agree that it isn't as easy as to divide the depictio within each Episode into real and magical scenes. It's more like the whole plot of each story (both Yasu's and T˘ya's) are "magical" interpretations of something which might happen/have happened on Rokkenjima with a basic structure that is founded in reality.
So I would say Shannon and Kanon are magical beings, but you can withdraw them from the plot and reinsert Yasu...everything that you can't it into that is a magical reinterpretation of actuall events and could not have happened that way. It's the same with everything involving Beatrice, Eva-Beatrice, Goldsmith or any of the magical beings.
I would almost say it's time for a scale of how easy to recognize certain scenes are as "magical interpretations". If we think back to EP1, there was nothing off about the scene with Kinz˘ talking to Natsuhi until hints of his earlier death started piling up.
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Old 2011-07-25, 11:05   Link #23376
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Those are not the biggest parts of the whole plot, but it was quite important. Otherwise it would have been harder to give out certain hints webbed into the script (also Kanon showing Hideyoshi the ring or him vowing to fight Beatrice in EP1)...these are small parts, but he actually does serve a role.
The biggest problem is his huge connection to the cousins via Jessica, which makes him much to important to just regard him as a role.

...

So I would say Shannon and Kanon are magical beings, but you can withdraw them from the plot and reinsert Yasu...everything that you can't it into that is a magical reinterpretation of actuall events and could not have happened that way. It's the same with everything involving Beatrice, Eva-Beatrice, Goldsmith or any of the magical beings.
Here's the thing: He has no payoff. There are two ways to fix this. One is to cut him. Many people are resistant to that and I understand it, I'm just saying if it were me I probably would choose to cut. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm right, as after all this is Ryukishi's Umineko, not mine.

But there is another option, and that option is to have given him better payoff in ep7 and ep8.

Basically the question comes down to whether you think the story would be better with more or with less. Of course you can balance that out (take away somewhere, like cutting more of the magic characters, to add depth to the "real" characters), and in that instance you might say the story would be better if Kanon existed but had a more distinct importance to the final order of things.

Part of the problem with the whole "Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice are magic character filters that Yasu applies and withdraws according to her own particular ends" is that we can see narratively necessary reasons why she might do this with Shannon and Beatrice, but less so with Kanon. There's also the problem that we got a lot of stuff from Kanon that supposedly fleshed him out that then turned out not to mean anything (not because he doesn't exist, but because they were presented as things independent from Yasu and those things don't make any sense interpreted that way). So the two solutions are basically:
  • Make Kanon equally important to Shannon and Beatrice, as he presently isn't.
  • Remove Kanon and focus on the Shannon<->Yasu<->Beatrice transitional aspects.
I think the story would have greater strength on the merits of the latter, but if that's unpalatable, I think the former would also work, yes?
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Old 2011-07-25, 11:35   Link #23377
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And Leafsnail is correct.
Spoiler:


E1T2 requires Genji to lie, but doesn't require him to take part in the killing. It doesn't require anybody to have faked their death at the first twilight.
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Old 2011-07-25, 14:02   Link #23378
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It is not strictly necessary that Kyrie actually tell Rudolf that's what she was planning to do. Besides, they're partners in crime, who's to say he didn't figure it out on his own without needing to be told?
Until the last instant before she died, Kyrie preserved her pattern of behavior which states 'not going to get food = not going to the mansion'! No matter what plan she had in mind, or whether Rudolf guessed what she was up to, it's impossible for her to have physically done anything that would suggest a motive other than "going to get food at the mansion." Which would include waving guns around and threatening Hideyoshi, right?
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Old 2011-07-25, 14:36   Link #23379
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I don't remember that clearly. Were there actually sleeping pills in Maria's handbag? If yes it would actually be a huge benefit to the two culprit theories which I can apply to EP3.
I'm pretty sure I remember Rosa asking Maria for her sleeping pills at some point (possibly not in episode 3... maybe episode 2, where Rosa probably used the sleeping pills to put Battler to sleep).

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The main suspects to me are Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie by now. It would be nice if there was a way to go without Eva as a culprit at all (even though I thought differently before), but I can't make much sense of the Krauss/Natsuhi murder without her.
I'd say Will's solutions to episode 3 suggest it is Eva after all (she is the "obvious culprit"). And I think that the handbag is her "mutable blade" (since it may have acted as a blunt weapon and a strangling implement, and could have also provided Eva with sleeping pills and the stakes themselves).

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The only other solution I could think of would be Yasu actually killing Rosa and Maria and later returning to the guesthouse, killing Natsuhi and Krauss, and taking George with her...though that seems like quite a heavy task.
She would need inside help to maintain the mansion closed room... and indeed to get in at all. And I think the circumstances of the second twilight scream "unplanned murders"... and I don't think Yasu would callously strangle Maria to death and break her promise to take her to the golden land, personally.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Like, why were Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi and Krauss staked? Who was able to be in possession of sleeping pills to drug Natsuhi and Krauss? Who had enough time to drag the former outside?
My current theory:
Spoiler for For length:

You'll notice I haven't touched Yasu's motive. Maybe she's just a Heartless Breaker in the stories. Or maybe there's a motive there I'm missing.

The main thing that I might add to this theory is Eva actually meeting Yasu in the gold chamber, and having a conversation similar to the one in the ep7 tea party. This could make the dynamics at the end of the game make more sense, and mean that Eva ultimately decides to set off the bomb and run for safety when pretty much everyone else is already dead.
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Old 2011-07-25, 14:45   Link #23380
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Originally Posted by Renall
Kanon is pointless. Ryukishi basically acknowledged this in his treatment of him in ep7-8. The only conclusions I can even draw about why he's there are: shipping, poorly executed cheap trick, and pandering to Higurashi fans.
Don't forget completely awesome Fantasy scenes.
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