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Old 2011-07-25, 04:54   Link #20641
Tsuyoshi
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Yes, the needles used for the modification technique were threaded with Fuhai-sensei's energy, and that energy was used to carry out the ritual in the first place. I have high doubts that they would also provide Tsukune with Youki. I'd have thought one needs something more permanent than that. I also doubt Tsukune acquired Youki of his own because there's no evidence of that and I find it impossible to begin with because he was originally a human being, so he wouldn't have any Youki of his own, unless you say that the blood Moka gave him eventually became his own, but that would still mean he's using Shinso powers.

I also doubt that both Moka and Tsukune are need to awaken Alucard. If that were true, then Moka alone wouldn't have been able to awaken Alucard in the flashbacks. You'd have needed both Moka and Akasha to use their powers simultaneously in order for Alucard to awaken. That being said, Tsukune alone would suffice unless his Shinso blood isn't in synch with Alucard's. Akasha had to re-seal Alucard to save Moka in the flashbacks, so it's possible she changed the spirit wavelength in Alucard when he "devoured" her, which would mean that Moka could use her Shinso powers without risking Alucard's awakening. Because Tsukune has Moka's blood, using his powers wouldn't cause Alucard to awaken either since his blood isn't in synch with him.
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:01   Link #20642
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The Human Restructuring technique enabled Tsukune to use any Youjutsu in the first place. Before that, Tsukune could only use his Youki to strenghten his physical attacks up to Youkai/Vampire power "level" + with the help of his short training with whip Belmont learnt how to channel his youki properly ie. how to not stress the holy lock with every single youki attack.

I guess you could say that Tsukune had the properties ie. the general youkai traits thanks to the infused vampire blood, but not the means to use Youjutsu pre-ritual. Hence his rather awkward usage of "YOUKAI PUNCH!!!" as his only non-human attack (although that could already be considered as a raw youjutsu maybe). Now that Fuhai has modified his body, it basically allows for a more natural and empowered flow of youki, sponsored by Touhou Fuhai.
By a splendid body for Youjutsu is meant that past-ritual, Tsukune's body is able to splendidly use Youjutsu, thus the remark that his body has been "reborn"
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:09   Link #20643
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That's what I'm saying. I'm questioning the source of his Youki because I see some people here saying he's not using Shinso power when that's the only thing he has to use Youjutsu (Youkai TECHNIQUES, which is different from Youki).
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:14   Link #20644
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On the topic of Tsukune's Shinso powers, I think Alucard can be awakened only when the Shinso blood is fully awakened, which occurs when you fell intense emotions and probably when the amount of youkai energy generated in you're body exceeds the limit of youkai energy that a ordinary vampire is capable of producing.

If those two conditions aren't met, I think the Shinso blood acts in the same way as the blood of an ordinary vampire - after all, if we look at Tsukune, before he underwent the human modification ritual, there was nothing suggesting that Tsukune hadn't had the blood of an ordinary vampire in his veins (after all, it was only after the existence of Shinso vampires was revealed that we started to suspect that Tsukune might have obtained the blood of a Shinso vampire )

Similarly Inner Moka, also hasn't revealed her Shinso inheritance yet, since her seal limits her power to the level of an ordinary vampire, which probably isn't enough "power" to cause Alucard to awaken.

In other words, even if the source of Tsukune's youkai energy is the blood of a Shinso vampire, as long as the total amount of youkai energy generated in Tsukune's body, doesn't exceed the limits of an ordinary vampire, in my opinion, Tsukune shouldn't be capable of awakening Alucard.
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Old 2011-07-25, 09:06   Link #20645
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So does everyone agree that the source of Tsukune's youki is his Shinso powers?, and only him using a certain amount, wouldn't be capable of awakening Alucard?

But the theory of both Moka and Tsukune being required to resurrect Alucard, to me, sounds like the most appropriate theory.
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Old 2011-07-25, 09:15   Link #20646
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So does everyone agree that the source of Tsukune's youki is his Shinso powers?, and only him using a certain amount, wouldn't be capable of awakening Alucard?
It's plausible, tho I'm more of the opinion that it's more to do with synchronization. Then again, Akasha was using Shinso power to an extent in order to heal when she fought Akua, and yet Alucard would not awaken until Moka went all out. I do find it fair to say that if Tsukune doesn't use a lot of power at once, it won't cause any changes in Alucard, tho not that you need both him and Moka to use their full power for anything to happen.

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Old 2011-07-25, 09:48   Link #20647
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Considering the fact that youjutsu techniques don't use a lot of youkai energy, since Tsukune didn't even need to "change" into his vampire form to be capable of using them, I think it's safe to assume that as long as Tsukune doesn't lose control over his powers, and transform into his "berserk form" , Alucard shouldn't awaken...

After all, so far only Tsukune's "new berserk form" has been shown having attributes that can be associated with the blood of an Shinso vampire - white hair similar to Inner Moka's and a scent similar to Alucard's - meaning that, as long as, Tsukune doesn't change into the form he had during the "human modification ritual incident", Tsukune shouldn't be capable of awakening Alucard - and we already know the condition that causes the "awakening" of Tsulune's "berserk side", since it had been pointed out, near the end of chapter 40 by Tohou Fuhai.
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Old 2011-07-25, 20:29   Link #20648
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Kinda was bored and craved some shounen so I worked myself through this one over the last two days. While S1 had some downsides the increase in plot in S2 is nice and the artwork also steadily improves - I dont get why some people are frettin bout this manga, all in all quite enjoyable read for the genre havin said that, I'll just be entering the fray as a newbie in here XD

There also is still the possibility that there is a difference between Tsukune/Alucard and Moka/Alucard when it comes to awakening the creep. It is quite possible Moka got MUCH more blood from her mother than she ever gave to Tsukune (despite giving it to him more than once) or that it affected her more since she was both in infant stage and born a vampire while tsukune set out as a human.

While Touhou was worried to the point of gettin drastic - he did not say he knows for sure Tsukune can likewise awaken Alucard - in fact I was thinking he was more worried in the other direction - like Tsukunes power having become totally unpredictable which with what powers he was given might be enough to cause serious trouble should he loose it completly - regardless of Alucard awakening or not. I doubt he would have used the modification technique had he grasped beforehand that Tsukune not only recieved vampiric but also shinso powers...

There is also the fact that Tohou knows about the infiltration plan. Why should he on the one hand smuggly seal away Moka's power to thwart the enemy plan while at the same time potentially delivering somebody else to do the job (tsukune) into their hands? He looks more competent than that.

And it would make more sense plot/character development wise. Another character that can awaken Alucard would make things more complicated just now - however the way it is done this can still be kept back for use in later arc. In terms of Tsukune finally getting a powerup its the best possible way, he has enough to go save Moka, but his powerup also comes with an inherent limiter since the beast form is dangerous...to serve that purpose the additional aspect of being able to awaken Alucard is not neccessarily needed ...
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Old 2011-07-25, 20:40   Link #20649
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speaking of nice artwork. Ikeda should work on necklines, they're too long at some point. XD
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Old 2011-07-25, 20:54   Link #20650
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speaking of nice artwork. Ikeda should work on necklines, they're too long at some point. XD
dats prly to accomodate the vampires and allow them easier bite-access
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Old 2011-07-25, 21:10   Link #20651
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speaking of nice artwork. Ikeda should work on necklines, they're too long at some point. XD
This. And I've really only started noticing it recently. It looks freaky.
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Old 2011-07-25, 22:59   Link #20652
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Kurumu had an elongated neck in the new manga cover. She looks beautiful, but fuck...the neck is too long.
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Old 2011-07-25, 23:20   Link #20653
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Spoiler for snip:
Well, you have got a point about Tohou Fuhai sending Tsukune on the Fairy Tale's HQ raid, which would be pretty stupid to do if Tsukune was capable of reviving Alucard as well, but it was already shown that Tohou Fuhai isn't omnipotent, with him not noticing the fact that Tsukune wears the Holy Lock until Tsukune's Shinso blood went out of control during the human modification ritual...

Furthermore most of the talk about Tsukune being capable of reviving Alucard is still speculation, since there hasn't been anything mentioned, that confirms that Tsukune's Shinso blood is synchronized with Alucard - naturally it was implied that something like that is possible with the fact that Moka inherited, Akasha's blood synchronization with Alucard, but at the same time Tsukune's case is a little different then Moka's, due to the fact that he was a normal human before he was injected with Moka's Shinso blood, and considering Jack Frosts prophecy about Tsukune and Moka, I believe that it might be possible that, at this point both Tsukune and Moka are needed to revive Alucard...
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Old 2011-07-26, 09:12   Link #20654
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Well, you have got a point about Tohou Fuhai sending Tsukune on the Fairy Tale's HQ raid, which would be pretty stupid to do if Tsukune was capable of reviving Alucard as well, but it was already shown that Tohou Fuhai isn't omnipotent, with him not noticing the fact that Tsukune wears the Holy Lock until Tsukune's Shinso blood went out of control during the human modification ritual...
He may not have been aware of it then, but he was certainly aware of the fact that Tsukune had Shinso blood when they went to try rescue Moka, and thus aware there was at least some risk in awakening Alucard as a result. Just because he's not omnipotent doesn't mean he's allowed to make basic mistakes like this one. So I doubt Fuhai-sensei would've allowed Tsukune to get close to Alucard without some kind of fallback. For instance, remember that Fuhai-sensei was the one who taught Mikogami about seals and spells. The Holy Lock is something Mikogami created for Tsukune. I wouldn't put it past Fuhai-sensei that he repaired the Holy Lock if not upgraded it. He was able to fix Moka's Rosario (and very quickly too) after all. Altho he's not omnipotent, I do think it's quite likely that he took some precautions.

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Furthermore most of the talk about Tsukune being capable of reviving Alucard is still speculation, since there hasn't been anything mentioned, that confirms that Tsukune's Shinso blood is synchronized with Alucard - naturally it was implied that something like that is possible with the fact that Moka inherited, Akasha's blood synchronization with Alucard, but at the same time Tsukune's case is a little different then Moka's, due to the fact that he was a normal human before he was injected with Moka's Shinso blood, and considering Jack Frosts prophecy about Tsukune and Moka, I believe that it might be possible that, at this point both Tsukune and Moka are needed to revive Alucard...
I doubt they're needed together. Assuming Moka's (and therefore Tsukune's) blood is synched with Alucard's, only one of them is required to "lose it" in order for Alucard to awaken. Like I said, in the flashback, it wasn't until Moka snapped that Alucard awoke. Granted, her mother was near too, but if it was just a matter of being there, Alucard should've woken up a long time ago already, and if it requires everyone that has Shinso Blood to snap (and right now, the only ones apart from Alucard to have Shinso blood are Moka and Tsukune), then how did Alucard awaken when only Moka snapped? The way I see it, so long as one host snaps, that's it, and so if either Moka or Tsukune lose it individually, that would be enough. The prophecy merely pointed out that Moka and Tsukune together would be responsible for the fate of the world. That's hardly enough evidence to point out that both of them are needed to awaken Alucard, nor did it hint anything of the sort.

The only thing I can agree with here is that there's no evidence Alucard's blood is synched with Tsukune's. As I said earlier, it's likely Moka's Shinso was de-synched by Akasha when she placed the Rosario on her and subsequently sealed Alucard. Tsukune has Moka's de-synched blood (this does not mean Moka's blood is weaker or stronger, just on a different wavelength). The reason Alucard awoke at all when Moka snapped in the flashbacks was because their blood was synched. There's much less risk of that happening now if either Moka or Tsukune snap.
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Old 2011-07-26, 09:44   Link #20655
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The only thing I can agree with here is that there's no evidence Alucard's blood is synched with Tsukune's. As I said earlier, it's likely Moka's Shinso was de-synched by Akasha when she placed the Rosario on her and subsequently sealed Alucard. Tsukune has Moka's de-synched blood (this does not mean Moka's blood is weaker or stronger, just on a different wavelength). The reason Alucard awoke at all when Moka snapped in the flashbacks was because their blood was synched. There's much less risk of that happening now if either Moka or Tsukune snap.
Exactly. Moka's Rosario did not only de-synched the Shinso blood, but sealed it completely as long as the rosario is "activated". I guess that's one of the reason why Outer Moka is so normal because the rosario sealed every kind of battle prowess next to the Shinso blood away.

@Tsukune's Youjutsu source: After looking at the chapter, it's really quite confusing. Touhou's words: "An amplfied channel that can produce Demon Energy (= Youki) and a "Transformation point" that will manipulate the quality of of demon energy". So either I'm just too dense to understand it or Shinso blood =/= Youki. It could still be that vampires aren't good with Youjutsu except of the inherited skills like transformation, youki detection, etc and in exchange way superior in hand to hand combat. Except (again) Akua and Jigentou which certainly is Youjutsu.
/is likely overthinking things.
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Old 2011-07-26, 10:06   Link #20656
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@Tsukune's Youjutsu source: After looking at the chapter, it's really quite confusing. Touhou's words: "An amplfied channel that can produce Demon Energy (= Youki) and a "Transformation point" that will manipulate the quality of of demon energy". So either I'm just too dense to understand it or Shinso blood =/= Youki.
I certainly would say Shinso =/= Youki. Youki seems to be what all the monsters have, it is their energy they use for whatever, be it special attack, trasformation or detecting something or whatnot. People with Shinso blood just have a very special, badass Youki due to their special blood, that's how I read it at least. Everybody keeps saying Moka's youki is so overwhelming - even though the Shinso part is sealed it is prly the reason for her uber youki.

As for human modfication, I read that explanation by Tohou as:[Humans neither have the a) cabability to produce/generate youki, nor the b) means to shape and control it] hence I gave your body a) a youki source and b) a control mechanism that helps you in controling and actually making use of your new "youki power cell"
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Old 2011-07-26, 10:20   Link #20657
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I certainly would say Shinso =/= Youki. Youki seems to be what all the monsters have, it is their energy they use for whatever, be it special attack, trasformation or detecting something or whatnot. People with Shinso blood just have a very special, badass Youki due to their special blood, that's how I read it at least. Everybody keeps saying Moka's youki is so overwhelming - even though the Shinso part is sealed it is prly the reason for her uber youki.
I've always defined Shinso Vampires as "Vampires among Vampires," which is to say that Shinso Vamps are a superior type of Vampire. Altho they're still vampires, they're a different, stronger and superior type, not to mention the most ancient so to speak. Consider the fact that Shinso blood is not inherited by birth, but needs to be taken from the carrier. Consider also that Alucard, the first Shinso Vampire, is also the oldest Vampire. It makes sense, therefore, to state that it's likely the Shinso Vampire is a kind of "Queen Bee" and all other vampires are subservient to then Queen Bee. However, with Alucard "dead," Vampires are now their own independent society. Notwithstanding of this, by this definition, Shinso Vampires are naturally superior to normal Vampires. What they have is still Youki, but a different kind altogether.

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As for human modfication, I read that explanation by Tohou as:[Humans neither have the a) cabability to produce/generate youki, nor the b) means to shape and control it] hence I gave your body a) a youki source and b) a control mechanism that helps you in controling and actually making use of your new "youki power cell"
I've always believed the purpose of the modification ritual was to allow Tsukune to make use of the already existing Youki in his body more easily and with less strain, hence the control mechanisms. Altho Vampires' use of Youki, as in their Youjutsu, is more simple in that it involves enhancing their physical strength and their sensing abilities, it is still Youjutsu, and having a body that channels Youki through his body better makes it easier for him to use it as well as any other Youjutsu he could be taught by Fuhai-sensei. I'm not sure Fuhai-sensei outright gave him another Youki source.
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Old 2011-07-26, 10:53   Link #20658
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but but but.... that "human modification technique" wasn't made specifically for Tsukune who happens to be a human who got a vampiric power boost. That technique was around before. We have seen examples of other humans crossing into the monster world so Touhou might have developed it for somebody else in another time ...

So by its very name it would seem to be a technique to modify a normal human into a human with monster powers, - in that light, yes, he DID give him his own youki source (not knowing at the time that Tsukune had already gotten more than "one-time use" vampire blood/ ghoul abilities)

Anyways, all in all I dunno if the details matter on this. Touhei conveniently came up with an explanation for a needed powerup - I mean you gotta have "somebody" say "something" to explain powerups in some sort of technical, metaphysical or whateva mumbojumbo, rite?

I read the whole thing as making a point that while Tsukune has shinso potential (sooner or later he HAS to turn HAX to actually EARN his harem of hotness ) he currently cannot use it and hence was granted an alternative to be able to go save his girl
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Old 2011-07-26, 12:52   Link #20659
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but but but.... that "human modification technique" wasn't made specifically for Tsukune who happens to be a human who got a vampiric power boost. That technique was around before. We have seen examples of other humans crossing into the monster world so Touhou might have developed it for somebody else in another time ...

So by its very name it would seem to be a technique to modify a normal human into a human with monster powers, - in that light, yes, he DID give him his own youki source (not knowing at the time that Tsukune had already gotten more than "one-time use" vampire blood/ ghoul abilities)
That's a good point, although Tsukune's case is a little different from the others because unlike other humans who may have tried to undergo the modification ritual, Tsukune already had Youki in his body. Even with that Youki, Tsukune was driven close to death by a hair's breadth. If other humans went through the ritual before, it's likely that they were also like Tsukune in that they already posessed some Youki of their own following a number of events. Fuhai-sensei may have even developed the technique because of those other humans who crossed to the world of Ayashi. It's the difficulty of actually living through the ritual that makes me wonder if it's even possible for a normal human to survive, considering one who already posessed Youki nearly died.

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Anyways, all in all I dunno if the details matter on this. Touhei conveniently came up with an explanation for a needed powerup - I mean you gotta have "somebody" say "something" to explain powerups in some sort of technical, metaphysical or whateva mumbojumbo, rite?

I read the whole thing as making a point that while Tsukune has shinso potential (sooner or later he HAS to turn HAX to actually EARN his harem of hotness ) he currently cannot use it and hence was granted an alternative to be able to go save his girl
Well, plot-wise, that's pretty much what the entire ritual was for, yes
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Old 2011-07-26, 13:02   Link #20660
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Continuing the blood synchronization discussion, well we have to remember that Ikeda hasn't clearly explained the mechanisms of the Shinso blood synchronization and what kind of effects it brings, so most of my deductions from this point should be taken with a grain of salt.

What, was only provided so far, is the fact that Akasha's Shinso blood and those who inherited it ( Moka ) are capable of awakening Alucard, due to the fact that Akasha used her own power to seal Alucard causing their blood to be synchronized with each other...

Of course, Tsuyoshi you have got a point saying that Akasha didn't cause Alucard to awaken, but the reason for that, was because Akasha was "limiting" her power output, to prevent Alucard from awakening, which was basically the reason why she was "initially" defeated by Akua during the flashback to Moka's flashback.

Now, for the second matter you brought up Tsuyoshi - basically that Moka was the only one needed to awaken Alucard, well I don't have enough evidence to counter this yet, since so far we only had one example of Alucard being revived due to his blood being synchronized with Akasha's, but the reason why I think that Moka's connection with Alucard might have changed after Moka has injected Tsukune with her Shinso blood is the mental connection that Tsukune and Moka share with each other, which has appeared after Moka has injected Tsukune with her Shinso blood.

Since Moka and Akasha haven't been shown of having a similar mental connection with each other, it signifies that the way Tsukune obtained Moka's Shinso blood isn't how the "Shinso blood inheritance" process usually works - meaning that, while usually the Shinso blood between the sire (Akasha) and the child (Moka0 isn't closely "linked" (synchronized) with each other, but due to the fact that Tsukune has inherited his Shinso blood differently, it caused the Shinso blood between the sire (Moka) and the child (Tsukune) to become "linked" (Synchronized) with each other, resulting in Moka and Tsukune acquiring a telepathic connection with each other and causing the things (like Alucard's revival) that previously (before Tsukune "inherited" Moka's Shinso blood) depended only on Moka's Shinso blood, to become "linked" between Moka's and Tsukune's "typically" independent Shinso blood's.

In other words, if Tsukune had been a "ordinary vampire" and inherited the blood of a Shinso vampire in the same way as Moka did, then their Shinso blood would be independent from each other and only one of them would be needed to revive Alucard, but due to the fact that Tsukune had been initially a human, he needed multiple injections of Moka's Shinso blood to actually inherit the blood of a Shinso vampire, it caused Moka's and Tsukune's Shinso blood to become "synchronized" with each other, resulting in the things that typically should be independent (like the awakening of Alucard) to be "synchronized" as well.
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