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Old 2011-06-06, 20:52   Link #301
1198
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Just one tiny little thing I didn't get from ep 7: She wouldn't date Kamijou ever after becoming a Puella Magi simply because she found out her soul wasn't in her actual body?
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Old 2011-06-06, 22:47   Link #302
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Just one tiny little thing I didn't get from ep 7: She wouldn't date Kamijou ever after becoming a Puella Magi simply because she found out her soul wasn't in her actual body?
More or less. I don't recall her exact wording, but I believe she didn't want to date him because she felt like she was already dead, and he didn't deserve a person like that. Or something along those lines.
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Old 2011-07-19, 15:40   Link #303
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Why is the fandom so down on Sayaka? How did she warrant that much hate from fans?
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:15   Link #304
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Why is the fandom so down on Sayaka? How did she warrant that much hate from fans?
People hate her because she acted irrationally, an "idiot". Some people can't seem to empathize with her situation and understand why she acted the way she did. Sayaka's spiral into despair was still technically her fault, since it was the choices she made that led to her demise, but those choices are still understandable and she shouldn't be hated because of that. Some people just can't understand Sayaka's situation. I don't expect people to like her, but your right that the some of the hate she gets is unjustified.

Sayaka may be my least favorite character in the show, but I still like her and commend her for trying to live by her ideals.
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Old 2011-07-20, 08:36   Link #305
rantuyetmai
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Originally Posted by Riga92 View Post
People hate her because she acted irrationally, an "idiot". Some people can't seem to empathize with her situation and understand why she acted the way she did. Sayaka's spiral into despair was still technically her fault, since it was the choices she made that led to her demise, but those choices are still understandable and she shouldn't be hated because of that. Some people just can't understand Sayaka's situation. I don't expect people to like her, but your right that the some of the hate she gets is unjustified.
Well, there's difference between understanding and accepting. For example, I understand why character A would be angered and kill character B because the latter betrayed him/take everything away from him. But is it acceptable? Character B could have done something really horrible, but if I let that justify A's action, I won't be able to forgive myself. It all come down to my personal moral: I despite violence even if it's well-deserved.

Now in Sayaka's case, my personal education and conviction told me to despite those who judge people, those who is too stubborn to the point of forgetting everyone else, and those who don't value themselves (and those who are petty too). In other words, there're just some kind of people whom I wouldn't want to associate with no matter what.

Sayaka is not a horrible person, in fact she wanted to do good and she has the courage to do good. I empathize that she was only 14, was hit with multiple hard truths, and was not anywhere as mentally strong as Madoka/Homura/Kyouko was. A lot of people understand why Sayaka acted the way she did, but remember: by no mean they have to forgive it. What I and several others dislike is the type of person she is - which means it is something much more fundamental than just what Sayaka caused.

That's why saying my hating for her unjustified is unjustified.

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Old 2011-07-20, 14:23   Link #306
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That's why saying my hating for her unjustified is unjustified
Hence why I says some of the hate is unjustified. There are people who understand Sayaka, yet still hate her, and I am accepting of that, as long as they understand her and provide legitimate reasons for why they may hate her.

I don't expect people to accept or forgive her for what she has done, just merely understand. It's just the people who hate Sayaka with no real basis for their hate is what I consider unjustified.
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Old 2011-07-20, 19:05   Link #307
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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
Now in Sayaka's case, my personal education and conviction told me to despite those who judge people, those who is too stubborn to the point of forgetting everyone else, and those who don't value themselves (and those who are petty too).
You know, these exact same criticisms could arguably be applied to Homura.

Homura could be pretty quick to judge someone as idiotic or foolish (she made such insults of Madoka at least once or twice), she was stubbornly dedicated to saving Madoka (arguably to the point of forgetting all the other Puella Magis), and she was willing to sacrifice her own well-being for Madoka's sake (which you could say is a case of her "not valuing herself" enough).

Do you hate Homura too?

Hate is a strong word.

I can understand someone disliking Sayaka (even though I myself like her a lot, and find her to be a mostly admirable character), but to outright hate her seems excessive, and yes, unjustified, to me.


Quote:
In other words, there're just some kind of people whom I wouldn't want to associate with no matter what.
The same is true for me. But I don't outright hate all such people either.

Somebody would have to be a very mean and nasty individual before I would even consider outright hating them.

Quote:
Sayaka is not a horrible person, in fact she wanted to do good and she has the courage to do good. I empathize that she was only 14, was hit with multiple hard truths,
And that's why I don't think that the hatred that Sayaka has received is justified.
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Old 2011-07-21, 01:43   Link #308
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You know, these exact same criticisms could arguably be applied to Homura.

Homura could be pretty quick to judge someone as idiotic or foolish (she made such insults of Madoka at least once or twice), she was stubbornly dedicated to saving Madoka (arguably to the point of forgetting all the other Puella Magis), and she was willing to sacrifice her own well-being for Madoka's sake (which you could say is a case of her "not valuing herself" enough).

Do you hate Homura too?
I don't, because your comparison logic is wrong.

1. Homura is not judgmental. She called Madoka foolish because it hurts her to see Madoka being so selfless (which is one of the primary reason why she loved Madoka so much in the first place), not because she sincerely think so.

Sayaka: Homura is a suspicious person -> she must be evil -> that must be why she didn't save Mami -> she opposed to "good MG" like Mami thus she must be "bad MG" like Kyouko -> didn't accept GS from her because it's dirty reward. Now this is what people call judgmental, I wonder if she's somehow related to Kogoro Mouri.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Homura stubbornly fought for her wish, but she did not lose sight of everything else. To tell you the truth, if I was her I'd have kidnapped Madoka away and not give a damn anymore. Yet Homura doesn't only want Madoka for herself, she wanted Madoka to live, not alive, but live happily - thus come the demand to save the city.

Sayaka: she must be evil, she must be evil, she must be evil, (wait, she just saved you two from Charlot-) SHE MUST BE EVIL! (oh geez, she even retrieved your SG back for you too...) SHE IS STILL EVIL!

Sayaka: true heroes don't need reward, I'm not using any GS, I'm not using any GS, (wait, you are exhausted, you may die, who is going to protect innocent lives after you fal-) I'M NOT USING ANY GS! Why should I care about protecting people after I die? (wow, talk about short-lived ideal)

Sayaka: I want to be a hero, I want to save people no matter what the price is, I don't have time to think what is it they need to be saved the most though. I won't have regret! (see further explanation in point 3).
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3. "She was willing to sacrifice her own well-being for Madoka's sake". As in, Madoka's life. Nothing wrong with wanting to die if that means you can save the life of someone you love.

Sayaka (ep 12): I still decide to sacrifice my life because he will have HIS ARM back. So no, thanks, I don't need your second chance Madoka. I don't really want to live being supportive to him, encourage him to find other hobby, getting him back to his feet (like other thousands of people do). I'd like one of those martyr ending please. Plus If I take back this wish, I won't be able to ever raise my head again. This ideal of me wanting to save people do not allow me to have regret.

Sure, that life of yours, the one that your parents gave you, being through shit and back to raise you up, doesn't equal to HIS ARM. Sue me, but I absolutely have problem with her sense of value because I love my parents too much, haven't given them back anything and just leave is the moment I lost my worth as a human.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Hate is a strong word.
And is not something I can control, much like love.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I can understand someone disliking Sayaka, but to outright hate her seems excessive, and yes, unjustified, to me.
I don't enjoy it if that can help you to feel any better. Doesn't change the fact that I despite people with those qualities.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai
In other words, there're just some kind of people whom I wouldn't want to associate with no matter what.
The same is true for me. But I don't outright hate all such people either.
To make it clear, I don't hate selfless people who are over-idealistic. I hate judgmental martyr-wannabe who is drown in pride yet doesn't have the courage to face REAL LIFE, who choose magic to deal with problems. For dramatic measure:
  • Out of the 7 Cardinal deadly sins, Sayaka committed the most serious one: Pride.
  • Out of the 4 Confucianism deadly sins, Sayaka commited the heaviest one: Filial.
I don't mean the girl deserved to be put to hell by pointing that out (she's only 14 for God's sake), but those are fine lines where I distinguish respectable human from those who are not.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Somebody would have to be a very mean and nasty individual before I would even consider outright hating them.

And that's why I don't think that the hatred that Sayaka has received is justified.
And yes, Sayaka's characteristics felt nasty to me. You don't have to agree with me, I just think it's funny to say my personal value "unjustified".

Last edited by rantuyetmai; 2011-07-21 at 01:56.
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Old 2011-07-21, 08:24   Link #309
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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
I don't, because your comparison logic is wrong.
While I respect your opinion, I think that my comparison logic is fine. I'm now going to attempt to demonstrate why I think that my comparison logic is fine.


Quote:

1. Homura is not judgmental.
I think that a person can reasonably interpret Homura as being judgmental. I don't personally interpret her that way, but truthfully, I don't interpret Sayaka as being particularly judgmental either. But for both girls, a defensible argument can be made that they're judgmental.

Homura is very quick to attack the intelligence and/or rationality of another person for not behaving the way that she would have them behave. There's a certain element of judging there.

Also, do you forget the end of Timeline 3? Homura was more or less wishing damnation on the entire world during that scene.

Now, I don't put much weight on that, because Homura was in a very bad place at the time just like Sayaka was in a very bad place during most if not all of her worst scenes. But the fact remains that lashing out at the entire world as Homura did at the end of Timeline 3 has a strong element of judging to it.


Quote:
She called Madoka foolish because it hurts her to see Madoka being so selfless (which is one of the primary reason why she loved Madoka so much in the first place), not because she sincerely think so.
That's just your interpretation. With some validity, another viewer could conclude from Homura's words that she considers Madoka foolish for being selfless. You can consider a person foolish, and still love that person.

Again, this isn't my personal interpretation, but if one chooses to judge Homura as harshly as you judge Sayaka, the anime leaves enough room there to make such a harsh assessment of Homura's character.


Quote:

Sayaka: Homura is a suspicious person ->
That's greatly downplaying the reasons Sayaka has for distrusting Homura and/or thinking her to be a delinquent. Please read my reply to DarkWing here.

Key excerpt below...


This is what Sayaka has seen of Homura so far:

1. Homura comes into class, acts coldly and strangely, and later makes very ominous and bizarre statements to Madoka.

2. Homura tries to kill a sentient life form, seemingly unprovoked.

3. Even after Homura tried to kill her friend (Kyubey), Mami tries to act diplomatically towards Homura, offering to share a grief seed with Homura as a symbolic gesture of offering the olive branch. Homura literally throws it back in Mami's face.

4. Through all of this, Homura is pretty much ignoring Sayaka, and barely acknowledges that Sayaka even exists.


Even at this point, why exactly should Sayaka think that Homura is anything but a very bad seed? Why should Sayaka attempt to be diplomatic with Homura, when Mami attempting exactly that went nowhere? And Sayaka's meetings with Homura only gets worse from here.

================================================== ===

There's being judgmental, and then there's simply being realistic when assessing the character of another individual.

You see, you and I have the benefit of being at least somewhat genre savvy. We know that "dark magical girls" like Homura can rarely be assessed at a surface level. In other words, we know that they tend to have compelling reasons for doing what they do, even when what they do and say may seem bizarre and inexplicable and/or rude at a surface level.

But Sayaka doesn't have that benefit. Ironically, Sayaka may never have watched a magical girl anime in her life. So when Homura acts inexplicably, violently, and rudely, all Sayaka sees is... Homura acting inexplicably, violently, and rudely.

I daresay that most real life people in Sayaka's shoes, and of her age, would have likely come to more or less the same conclusions about Homura that Sayaka did. I think most such people would have perceived Homura as quite dangerous, possibly even insane.


Quote:
she must be evil ->
I don't think Sayaka perceived Homura as outright evil, necessarily. Just inexplicable and dangerous.

Keep in mind that Madoka was also a bit afraid of Homura, at first.


Quote:
that must be why she didn't save Mami ->
Keep in mind here that Sayaka did not know that Mami had tied up Homura. This was a bad oversight on Madoka's part, as Madoka should have told Sayaka about that afterwards. Since Madoka didn't tell Sayaka that, Sayaka sees Homura arriving right after Mami is killed by Charlotte, with no reason given to explain Homura's peculiar timing, and Homura going on to defeat Charlotte and capture a grief seed.

You have to admit, to someone who didn't know that Mami had Homura tied up, it looks very suspicious (especially given the impression Homura had been giving off up until that point).


Quote:

she opposed to "good MG" like Mami thus she must be "bad MG" like Kyouko ->
As for Kyouko, the girl basically threatened to break all four limbs of the guy Sayaka is infatuated with, while she had earlier threatened to kill Sayaka to Sayaka's own face!

Look, actions speak louder than words, but words do matter. When someone says things that we tend to associate with the harshest and most vicious of criminals, it's simply self-defense for a person to react strongly to such words.

Frankly, I don't blame Sayaka whatsoever for viewing Kyouko as a "bad MG".


Quote:

didn't accept GS from her because it's dirty reward.
Sayaka was suicidal (or thought she wanted to die). Hence she was intentionally avoiding GS because she wanted to push herself to death. She was in a very bad place. She tried to hide those suicidal sentiments behind a front of being a noble Puella Magi because she didn't want to admit to her weakness.

It's all very pitiable, in my view, and certainly not a reason to hate Sayaka. My heart went out to Sayaka here.


Quote:

2. Homura stubbornly fought for her wish, but she did not lose sight of everything else.
Let's be frank here. She prioritized Madoka well above the other magical girls. She didn't try anywhere near as hard to save Mami, or Sayaka, or Kyouko, as she tried to save Madoka.


Quote:
To tell you the truth, if I was her I'd have kidnapped Madoka away and not give a damn anymore. Yet Homura doesn't only want Madoka for herself, she wanted Madoka to live, not alive, but live happily - thus come the demand to save the city.
What does saving the city have to do with that? Homura wants to stop Walpurgis Night simply so Madoka won't feel compelled to become a Puella Magi in order to do so herself.

An argument can be made that if Homura had wanted Madoka to live happily she would have tired harder to save Sayaka, as Sayaka is very important to Madoka.


Quote:

Sayaka: she must be evil, she must be evil, she must be evil, (wait, she just saved you two from Charlot-) SHE MUST BE EVIL! (oh geez, she even retrieved your SG back for you too...) SHE IS STILL EVIL!
Did Sayaka even find that out? That it was Homura that retrieved her Soul Gem?

Also, did Homura "save Madoka and Sayaka from Charlotte" or did Homura simply arrive before they'd turn into puella magis to defend themselves as Homura didn't want added Puella Magi competition for grief seeds (which would be an interpretation that Sayaka could reasonably make and would be completely in line with what Mami had told her)?


Quote:

Sayaka: true heroes don't need reward, I'm not using any GS, I'm not using any GS, (wait, you are exhausted, you may die, who is going to protect innocent lives after you fal-) I'M NOT USING ANY GS! Why should I care about protecting people after I die? (wow, talk about short-lived ideal)
As I argued before, Sayaka became suicidal after she determined that the guy she was infatuated with was almost certainly lost to her (or so Sayaka thought). It's hardly out of the ordinary for a teenage girl in love to do, say, and think crazy things due to unrequited love and heartbreak.


Quote:

Sayaka: I want to be a hero, I want to save people no matter what the price is, I don't have time to think what is it they need to be saved the most though. I won't have regret! (see further explanation in point 3).
Honestly, I don't even know what you're trying to get at here.


Quote:

3. "She was willing to sacrifice her own well-being for Madoka's sake". As in, Madoka's life. Nothing wrong with wanting to die if that means you can save the life of someone you love.
And that's precisely the same thing that Sayaka wanted to do for Kamijou. She wanted to save his life from ruination, as he saw it. The guy was devastated - absolutely devastated - over not being able to pursue his musical talents.


Quote:

Sayaka (ep 12): I still decide to sacrifice my life because he will have HIS ARM back.
Yes? And your point? Without his arm healed, he can't pursue his dream in life. He can't perform beautiful music for potentially countless people.

You do realize that Sayaka might have just rescued the next Beethoven or Bach for the betterment of humanity as a whole, correct?

Are you really going to crap on such a selfless sacrifice that could bring so much great music to the ears of so many? I mean, really?


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And is not something I can control, much like love.
Maybe not. But if you deconstruct the basis of your hate (as I'm attempting to do in this post), then that may cause the emotion of hate to go away.


Quote:
To make it clear, I don't hate selfless people who are over-idealistic. I hate judgmental martyr-wannabe who is drown in pride
I guess you don't hate Sayaka then, because that doesn't describe her at all.

Sayaka was hardly a person "drowned in pride". If anything, she was too insecure about her sense of self-worth.


Quote:
who choose magic to deal with problems.
Um, Madoka ultimately choose magic to deal with the overarching problem of the Puella Magi system.


Quote:
For dramatic measure:
  • Out of the 7 Cardinal deadly sins, Sayaka committed the most serious one: Pride.
  • Out of the 4 Confucianism deadly sins, Sayaka commited the heaviest one: Filial.
I totally disagree with you. I see no evidence of Sayaka being atypically prideful.


Quote:

And yes, Sayaka's characteristics felt nasty to me.
Then you're judging them too harshly, in my view.
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Old 2011-07-21, 10:27   Link #310
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I'm more miffed at Sayaka being stubborn to the point of self-destructing, but I don't actually dislike her. In fact, I admire her unwavering dedication to trying to do the right thing, and her willingness to get the short of the stick to save Kyosuke. Even in the Oriko timeline, she proved to be good enough to step up and protect her classmates.

I jokingly made a remark in the PMMM thread on TV Tropes that I suspected Sayaka has a turn-on for Hurt-Comfort, which was why she was drawn to Kyosuke.
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Old 2011-07-21, 10:29   Link #311
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Even in the Oriko timeline, she proved to be good enough to step up and protect her classmates.
This is interesting. What did Sayaka do, exactly, in the Oriko timeline? I haven't been following the Oriko manga.
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Old 2011-07-21, 10:44   Link #312
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She grabbed a weapon, starting beating up Familiars, and tried to catch up to Homura to assist, with Hitomi and Madoka in tow. The last we see of her, she was:

Spoiler for Oriko Ending Spoilers:
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Old 2011-07-21, 11:08   Link #313
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Wow, didn't know people outright hated Sayaka. x.x But people can have their opinions.

I never liked Sayaka as much as I liked the rest of the main cast, but I still like her a lot.
Spoiler for spoilers about anime:
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Old 2011-07-23, 06:15   Link #314
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I didn't hate Sayaka but have no sympathy for her up until her VA pulled that really remorseful voice at the end of ep 8.

The problem with Sayaka is that she is not intellectually stupid. She understood immediately when Mami warned her on the difference on what you really want vs what you lie to yourself on wanting.

However she continues to lie to herself again and again, hiding behind a facade, resulting in her downward spiral. This was her choice and the consequences must be faced by her. Only at the end when she was forced to face the sum result of her choices did she truly stop her self deception.

That sad thing about Sayaka's character is that you see many real life examples of such people.
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Old 2011-07-25, 16:18   Link #315
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The main thing I don't like about her is how she used her brave, somewhat foolish personality to do so much (becoming a Puella Magi so early on, using her wish on someone else who imo could never properly thank her, refusing to let Witches brew and wreak havoc at the cost of her soul), and yet she couldn't muster up enough courage to ask Kamijou out. I understand how she felt that she couldn't be a good GF to him with her new duties, but really, she already gave him such a great gift; her not claiming what she deserved just made me facepalm. And her stubbornness in refusing to just listen to Kyoko and QB and properly harvest Grief Seeds didn't get any points in my book, either. It seemed to me as if she was living in some fantasy of a typical magical girl series where every hero just kills every bad guy on sight and goes home happy at the end of the day. I still respect her for her bravery, though, and I'm glad she was around to save Madoka in ep 3 (4?).
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse after Triple R gave such a wonderful review of Sayaka's character, but you're making a few critical misinterpretations of her (and the series as a whole, really) here.

First of all, you're misinterpreting her self-loathing (over being essentially a zombie, which was quite obviously shown to be something she felt particularly strongly about) for a lack of courage. Her refusing to ask out Kamijou had absolutely nothing to do with any perceived notion of not having time for him; her sole issue lied in believing herself to be unworthy of him now that she's basically a rock controlling a body. Whether this is truly as big an issue as she made it out to be is up for debate, but her feelings about it were made quite clear.

Second of all, uh... stubbornly refusing to properly harvest Grief Seeds? Let me make sure I'm understanding you: you're insinuating that sacrificing innocent lives to get more Grief Seeds is the proper way to be a Puella Magi? Forgetting for a moment that Kyoko was the half-insane exception and not the rule itself, I still fail to understand how you could possibly come to this conclusion, much less hold it against Sayaka. Seriously, how does one come to the conclusion that having any sort of humanity is something to be held against her?

I'm trying not to be rude, but that part boggled my mind.

And no, she didn't really have a fanciful view of being a Puella Magi; no more so than Madoka did in the beginning, anyway, and she certainly wasn't looking at it like that by the time she became a Puella Magi. Yeah she saw being a Puella Magi as being akin to being a hero of justice, but again, that's hardly something to hold against her. She believed it was her duty to fight Witches to protect the lives of others, and again, her showing such a level of humanity is hardly a fault in her character. Quite the opposite, actually.

I get some of the abuse she takes (like Triple R I strongly disagree with it, but at least I get it), but with the possible exception of my first point, none of the complaints you made are in any way legitimate faults. If you're going to pick apart her character, at least pick apart things that are actually faults.
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Old 2011-07-25, 18:43   Link #316
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Triple_R made a wonderful analysis of Sayaka, and tbh I can't understand why you wouldn't at least sympathize with her. She was "stupid" in many ways, but tragic overall.
I wasn't aware there was so much outright and partially unjustified hate :/

There isn't much to add to what Triple_R and the others said, so I'd like to just make two quick points on things that bothered me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
Now this is what people call judgmental, I wonder if she's somehow related to Kogoro Mouri.
LOL, Ran Mouri is related to Kogoro Mouri, and she isn't judgmental by any standards. That's a nonsensical statement :s

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Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post
Sayaka (ep 12): I still decide to sacrifice my life because he will have HIS ARM back. So no, thanks, I don't need your second chance Madoka. I don't really want to live being supportive to him, encourage him to find other hobby, getting him back to his feet (like other thousands of people do). I'd like one of those martyr ending please. Plus If I take back this wish, I won't be able to ever raise my head again. This ideal of me wanting to save people do not allow me to have regret.
You seem sooooo blinded by hate, wow. Sayaka wasn't terribly deceiving, annoying or totally insane as some other characters from the "tragic fate" category, she was just a 14 year old that suffered a bad fate and who was very naive :s
Yes, she was grating at times with her pseudo-idealistic but totally unaware speeches. But she wasn't a horrible offender who chopped off a well-liked characters head (*cough priscilla cough*), or anything.

Anyway, my grievance with this statement is you describing Kyousuke's music as "some hobby! which is completely wrong and painfully inaccurate. It wasn't his hobby, it was his life, as Triple_R rightfully pointed out.
Which makes her sacrifice incredibly noble, and regardless of all your dislike towards her THAT at least is something you did that you can't just try and cheapen, because it was amiable in every respect :s
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Old 2011-07-27, 01:39   Link #317
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Wow, that was a thorough rebuttal by Triple_R of the other person's emotionally skewed arguments. Somehow, I feel slightly discouraged to become his opponent in a debate , but fortunately, I share his sentiments regarding Sayaka. Also, I feel the urge to commend him for his able defense of Sayaka in her time of need (not that I'm qualified to give awards of any sort anyway).

I know Sayaka is underappreciated and isn't highly popular compared to the others, say Homura, but to see people who openly and strongly dislike her (dare I say 'haters'), I am surprised by all the unwarranted hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
However she continues to lie to herself again and again, hiding behind a facade, resulting in her downward spiral. This was her choice and the consequences must be faced by her. Only at the end when she was forced to face the sum result of her choices did she truly stop her self deception.
I don't think it's fair to blame everything on just Sayaka's choices. Remember that for every miracle made in a wish, an equal amount of despair is also created to balance everything. At the very least, part of Sayaka's suffering was also caused by despair welling up inside her as a result of making such a miracle happen. Those feelings partly influenced the choices she made later. That was a side effect she neither knew beforehand nor had any control over.

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Triple_R made a wonderful analysis of Sayaka
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think anyone could have explained Sayaka better than him.

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
There isn't much to add to what Triple_R and the others said
This is why I found it a little hard to reply in this thread, many good points have already been made and little room left to avoid repeating what has already been said.

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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Which makes her sacrifice incredibly noble
This is one of the many things I love about Sayaka. Though she may not be the only one who made a noble sacrifice, hers is made all the more poignant by the the tragic circumstances that awaited her.

She fought an uphill battle at every turn until the very end. There was no light waiting for her at the end of the tunnel, at least until Madoka came to take her away at last. She was a Lawful Good character who was punished by the twisted system for doing the right things, yet she continued to fight and believe in her principles even if her own world was collapsing around her. She had that unwavering determination, that steadfast resolve to believe in what was right, even if it meant facing superior enemies, taking on heavy burdens and challenging the twisted world. She never submitted to contradiction or hypocrisy. She's headstrong, but she's decisive and holds strong convictions.

I like those in a character. Granted, some of these are not exclusive to Sayaka, but in her I saw these qualities embodied the most. Sayaka Miki, the tragic heroine who even in real life (in the eyes of people) remains the underdog, underappreciated. Sayaka Miki, in the words of Snork, our "genki knight", who deserves more love than she gets.

Other minor, shallower reasons why I like Sayaka include the fact that she is voiced by Eri Kitamura, I like Eri Kitamura, Eri did a good job of voicing her, I hold a slight bias toward blue-haired characters, I love the color blue and I like swords more than other classical weapons. I consider these small reasons more as the icing than the cake itself, though.

To borrow and heavily modify a quote from a certain other show:

"Sayaka is dead.
She's not here anymore!
But on my back,
and in my heart,
she lives on in me!
My sword is the one that pierces the sky!"




Now if you'll excuse me for being such an unapologetic fanatic... I have to find the Madoka OST 2, supposedly released today, which contains Sayaka's theme Decretum, "Decree" as the first track.
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Old 2011-07-27, 04:21   Link #318
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
To borrow and heavily modify a quote from a certain other show:

"Mami is dead.
She's not here anymore!
But on my back,
and in my heart,
she lives on in me!
My sword is the one that pierces the sky!"
Unlimited Blade Works!
I corrected it for you.
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Old 2011-07-27, 06:04   Link #319
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
I don't think it's fair to blame everything on just Sayaka's choices. Remember that for every miracle made in a wish, an equal amount of despair is also created to balance everything. At the very least, part of Sayaka's suffering was also caused by despair welling up inside her as a result of making such a miracle happen. Those feelings partly influenced the choices she made later. That was a side effect she neither knew beforehand nor had any control over.
Doesn't fly.
The first choice: Healing violin boy's hand. At this point, she knew the difference between what she wanted and what would sound morally nice as a wish. This is ignoring the fact that violin boy is not going to die (unlike Mami's case) and another dream can be found (else most of those children who wanted to be a soldier/policeman/doctor/scientist/etc when they grow up would have killed themselves when they ended up working as something else. At 14 years old, you have plenty of time to change your "dream")

Second choice: Lying to herself she would never regret her choice. If you truly would never regret your choice, you would not need to tell yourself that because you would accept any consequences that came, come hell or high water. Already her words "how could i regret this" during the violin boy's rooftop performance betrayed her doubt

Third choice: Lying to herself that she has to give up violin boy because shes now a zombie when it was her own fear of rejection that stopped her. Note the long duration that she spent wth violin boy prior to changing and not a peep on liking him because she wanted him to tell her instead and thus be free from rejection.

Fourth choice: Lying to herself that she is better than the other Mahou Shoujo (other than Mami) and an ally of justice even after Kyoko tore her mask off with her "break the boy's legs" speech, showing that her basic wish itself was for a selfish motive

Final choice: Lying to herself that she is rejecting Homura's help because she is suspiscious rather than that she has given up on herself and waiting to die.

None of this is due to the magical despair vs hope balance. This is simply the result of self deception. Compare and contrast Kyoko and Homura (both more popular than Sayaka).

Kyoko saw her wish blow itself up but she did not give up on herself because she admitted she made a mistake in her way of thinking and tried to rectify it. Not that her ultra selfish thinking was correct but it implies she understands and admits her initial mistake and thus faces the truth (ie i fuc*ed up)..

Homura is even more obvious. Every timeline she fails, she thinks on her mistakes and tries again. If she was Sayaka's personality, she would have blamed the entire thing on Kyubei, hid in a corner crying and kill herself by charging Walpugis Night in a "glorious" final strike
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Old 2011-07-27, 07:33   Link #320
Akashin
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Oh for crying out loud...

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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
The first choice: Healing violin boy's hand. At this point, she knew the difference between what she wanted and what would sound morally nice as a wish. This is ignoring the fact that violin boy is not going to die (unlike Mami's case) and another dream can be found (else most of those children who wanted to be a soldier/policeman/doctor/scientist/etc when they grow up would have killed themselves when they ended up working as something else. At 14 years old, you have plenty of time to change your "dream")
I get the feeling you're making the same error everybody else is. That is to say: How, on any reasonable level, is losing a talent that was both his life and something he was (presumably) well on his way to being a professional at (if he wasn't already; he certainly was in terms of skill) comparable to a child learning he probably won't be a doctor? His violin playing was far from a fanciful dream kids have; it was a reality that meant everything to him. Yeah in theory he could have moved on, but with his heart so firmly set on violin playing, her making the decision to give that back to him is not something I will ever hold against her.

Are there more important things she could have wished for? Certainly. But this was plenty important enough.

Quote:
Second choice: Lying to herself she would never regret her choice. If you truly would never regret your choice, you would not need to tell yourself that because you would accept any consequences that came, come hell or high water. Already her words "how could i regret this" during the violin boy's rooftop performance betrayed her doubt
Matter of opinion, really. You see her doubting herself, I see her ascertaining that it's not something she could ever possibly regret. And unless I'm mistaken, she never outright regrets healing him. She regrets a lot of the choices she made, but not that.

I could be mistaken. Don't think I am, though.

Quote:
Third choice: Lying to herself that she has to give up violin boy because shes now a zombie when it was her own fear of rejection that stopped her. Note the long duration that she spent wth violin boy prior to changing and not a peep on liking him because she wanted him to tell her instead and thus be free from rejection.
...

Eh?

What evidence is there at all that suggests her despising being a "zombie" was a facade to avoid facing rejection? Say what you want about her fear of rejection (I vaguely remember her saying something about intending to tell him once he was out of the hospital, but my mind might be making things up on me), but her reaction to being a zombie was in no way a facade.

Quote:
Fourth choice: Lying to herself that she is better than the other Mahou Shoujo (other than Mami) and an ally of justice even after Kyoko tore her mask off with her "break the boy's legs" speech, showing that her basic wish itself was for a selfish motive
*sigh*... You're combining two arguments and trying to make them the same thing. Yes her basic wish was on a level selfish. But that has nothing to do with her perceived superiority over other Puella Magi. Her perceived superiority came from the belief that all Puella Magi barring Mami were like Kyoko (and with only Kyoko and Homura for reference, I can see why she'd think so; she had every right to believe being a Puella Magi is something girls did selfishly). She didn't lie to herself here; she just resolved to, you know, have a heart. Which in her eyes was a rare thing among Puella Magi.

That her wish was selfish does absolutely nothing to change this. Selfish wish =/= selfish Puella Magi.

Quote:
Final choice: Lying to herself that she is rejecting Homura's help because she is suspiscious rather than that she has given up on herself and waiting to die.
I'll concede to this point, though I'm hesitant to call this lying as such. She did, after all, not trust Homura in the slightest--that isn't a lie. And as we see less than half an episode later, she certainly isn't afraid of facing her own lack of will to live.

Quote:
None of this is due to the magical despair vs hope balance. This is simply the result of self deception. Compare and contrast Kyoko and Homura (both more popular than Sayaka).

Kyoko saw her wish blow itself up but she did not give up on herself because she admitted she made a mistake in her way of thinking and tried to rectify it. Not that her ultra selfish thinking was correct but it implies she understands and admits her initial mistake and thus faces the truth (ie i fuc*ed up)..

Homura is even more obvious. Every timeline she fails, she thinks on her mistakes and tries again. If she was Sayaka's personality, she would have blamed the entire thing on Kyubei, hid in a corner crying and kill herself by charging Walpugis Night in a "glorious" final strike
I'll tentatively agree that this has nothing to do with the despair/hope balance. Which is to say, I agree on the grounds that the only thing we can judge Sayaka on is what we see, and what we see is grief all of her own making. None of it was magical per se. That said, for all we know it could be that very balance that is driving her fall. We can't know.

And on that note, there is absolutely no way you could know how Sayaka might react to being in Homura's shoes. I'm not sure why you would make this argument, anyway; Homura herself shows how an utterly innocent and cowardly girl gradually transformed into a gun-wielding, emotionally stunted killing machine. Without seeing it with our own eyes, there is positively no way to know how Sayaka might develop under those same conditions. I refuse to consider this as a realistic argument simply for that reason.

Really, I see to a certain extent where your arguments are coming from, but with a couple exceptions I don't really see her actions as lying to herself...

Last edited by Akashin; 2011-07-27 at 10:26. Reason: Typo =S
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