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Old 2011-07-29, 10:07   Link #341
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.D. View Post
Mami and Homura were in desperate situations,
Why was Homura in a desperate situation? It's not like she couldn't have made the exact same wish a week later, and then started time looping to protect Madoka.

Your criticism of Sayaka is simply not fair, unless you're going to make the exact same criticism of Kyouko and Homura. Mami perhaps gets a bit of a pass because of her circumstances.


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and Kyouko was pretty small. But Sayaka had all the time in the world...
Kyouko and Homura had all the time in the world too.


Look, it's simply human nature to care more about specific people that are very important to you than about the world in a general sense.

Personally, I'm kind of impressed that 4 of the 5 girls made wishes primarily for the sake of another person, or other people (Sayaka for Kamijo, Homura for Madoka, Kyoko for her father, and Madoka for Puella Magis in general) rather than think of a genuinely selfish wish. While none of the girls (except Madoka) thought "big picture good for all", at least none of the girls thought of your typical selfish wish (wish for lots of money, wish for eternal life, wish to be a famous movie star, etc...) either.
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Old 2011-07-29, 11:40   Link #342
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^ Homura was emotionally unstable, and Kyouko was simply too young to understand how many possibilities lie in Kyuubey's wish. Sheesh.
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Old 2011-07-29, 12:01   Link #343
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You're still not addressing the obvious difference between, "It would be wonderful to use my wish to put an end to world hunger," and, "The guy I love has lost his dream. I want to give that back to him, and I have a wish with which to do that." It's nice that you think people should prioritize the world at large over their immediate family and friends, but the people who think like that (assuming they even exist =/) are few and far between.

I can say with absolute certainty that, if I had a free wish, I'd sooner use it to help my friend walk again than cure cancer. Why? Because my friend means more to me; everybody is like that.
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Old 2011-07-29, 12:48   Link #344
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I was actually talking about a different kind of wish, one that solves both problems. Something like "I want everyone to be cured, no matter how worse their condition is" would take care not only of Kamijou, but also of many, many others.
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Old 2011-07-29, 13:17   Link #345
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Originally Posted by O.D. View Post
I was actually talking about a different kind of wish, one that solves both problems. Something like "I want everyone to be cured, no matter how worse their condition is" would take care not only of Kamijou, but also of many, many others.
I don't think the wish-system works like that. You have to feel the wish; the emotional intensity is what powers it. What you suggest would be the rational thing to do, but if rational would work the incubators wouldn't need emotional human beings in the first place.
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Old 2011-07-29, 13:48   Link #346
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Mostly what Dawnstorm said. Presuming for a moment that Sayaka actually has enough magical power to pull off such a wish (that wish is a tall order; I'm not certain Sayaka would be strong enough for it), she was mostly focused on Kamijou. For her to think her wish through to that extent would require considerably more knowledge of how wishes and the system as a whole works than what she had at that time. We see as much through Madoka; it took her the entire series to reach the point where she could make as carefully thought out and detailed a wish as she did.
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Old 2011-07-29, 20:59   Link #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.D. View Post
^ Homura was emotionally unstable, and Kyouko was simply too young to understand how many possibilities lie in Kyuubey's wish. Sheesh.
So are you implying that Sayaka is perfectly emotionally stable?

As for Kyouko being "too young to understand how many possibilities lie in Kyuubey's wish", Sayaka is only 14 herself, isn't she?

Speaking personally, my conception of the world was a lot more limited when I was 14 than it is now as an adult.


All I'm asking from the Sayaka critics is basic fairness. To simply apply the same standards to all the other Puella Magis that you apply to Sayaka.

Of course, I think that when the harsher Sayaka critics do that, they'll soon see that they are, in fact, being overly harsh on Sayaka.
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Old 2011-08-05, 18:50   Link #348
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse after Triple R gave such a wonderful review of Sayaka's character, but you're making a few critical misinterpretations of her (and the series as a whole, really) here.

First of all, you're misinterpreting her self-loathing (over being essentially a zombie, which was quite obviously shown to be something she felt particularly strongly about) for a lack of courage. Her refusing to ask out Kamijou had absolutely nothing to do with any perceived notion of not having time for him; her sole issue lied in believing herself to be unworthy of him now that she's basically a rock controlling a body. Whether this is truly as big an issue as she made it out to be is up for debate, but her feelings about it were made quite clear.

Second of all, uh... stubbornly refusing to properly harvest Grief Seeds? Let me make sure I'm understanding you: you're insinuating that sacrificing innocent lives to get more Grief Seeds is the proper way to be a Puella Magi? Forgetting for a moment that Kyoko was the half-insane exception and not the rule itself, I still fail to understand how you could possibly come to this conclusion, much less hold it against Sayaka. Seriously, how does one come to the conclusion that having any sort of humanity is something to be held against her?

I'm trying not to be rude, but that part boggled my mind.

And no, she didn't really have a fanciful view of being a Puella Magi; no more so than Madoka did in the beginning, anyway, and she certainly wasn't looking at it like that by the time she became a Puella Magi. Yeah she saw being a Puella Magi as being akin to being a hero of justice, but again, that's hardly something to hold against her. She believed it was her duty to fight Witches to protect the lives of others, and again, her showing such a level of humanity is hardly a fault in her character. Quite the opposite, actually.

I get some of the abuse she takes (like Triple R I strongly disagree with it, but at least I get it), but with the possible exception of my first point, none of the complaints you made are in any way legitimate faults. If you're going to pick apart her character, at least pick apart things that are actually faults.
Spoiler for .:

What I'm saying is that I didn't like how she didn't really take some things seriously.
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Old 2011-08-05, 19:04   Link #349
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1. She inflated the severity of the problem for who knows why. Learning about the Soul Gem can be a shock, but it's not enough to just sit there and let her human life pass her by.
I'm willing to call this one of those things you can't easily determine. Yeah from an outside perspective her reaction was perhaps a little strong, but it's not easy to say whether or not it was wrong. It's easy enough to say that the Soul Gem reveal is no big deal (hell, they didn't even notice until they were told about it, so they clearly don't feel different), but the knowledge that your body is basically just a part and that you're now a rock may be much harder to deal with in person.

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2. Perhaps "properly" is the wrong word, considering that they're supposed to become witches, but fact still is she didn't get enough/ powerful enough Grief Seeds to keep from turning into a Witch rather quickly. It was even said that Sayaka had too many "good" qualities to succeed (well, not become a Witch too soon) as a PM.
Much of that was her grief accelerating the process though. After all, Mami alternated hunting Witches and Familiars in much the same way and did just fine. Sayaka's good qualities did make her unsuited to be a Puella Magi, yes, but again that isn't a flaw; not as a character, anyway.
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Old 2011-11-03, 23:18   Link #350
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Old 2012-03-19, 00:31   Link #351
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Man I feel so bad for Sayaka, to have her love of her life be taken away from one of her best friends! How cold is that?! FUCK HITOMI.

Then again, I feel like Sayaka should of pursued Kyousuke, but I understand the trauma she was going through with not being "human".

Sayake's spiral of depression into becoming a witch is definitely one of the most tragic things I've seen in an anime. The other would be Welcome to the NHK, the series in itself.
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Old 2012-03-19, 01:38   Link #352
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Man I feel so bad for Sayaka, to have her love of her life be taken away from one of her best friends! How cold is that?! FUCK HITOMI.

Then again, I feel like Sayaka should of pursued Kyousuke, but I understand the trauma she was going through with not being "human".

Sayake's spiral of depression into becoming a witch is definitely one of the most tragic things I've seen in an anime. The other would be Welcome to the NHK, the series in itself.
i don't think hitomi cold at all. in fact, she is very thoughtful of Sayaka, how many girl you think would let her love rival confess before her do? it's Sayaka herself don't think a "zombie" worth Kyousuke's love and didn't confess to him.
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Old 2012-03-19, 10:41   Link #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRanger View Post
Man I feel so bad for Sayaka, to have her love of her life be taken away from one of her best friends! How cold is that?! FUCK HITOMI.

Then again, I feel like Sayaka should of pursued Kyousuke, but I understand the trauma she was going through with not being "human".

Sayake's spiral of depression into becoming a witch is definitely one of the most tragic things I've seen in an anime. The other would be Welcome to the NHK, the series in itself.
To be fair, Hitomi didn't even know that Sayaka liked Kyousuke and it is not as though Sayaka actually confessed to Kyousuke anyway.
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Old 2012-03-19, 10:47   Link #354
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To be fair, Hitomi didn't even know that Sayaka liked Kyousuke and it is not as though Sayaka actually confessed to Kyousuke anyway.
Hitomi do know that Sayaka like Kyousuke even before her, that why she let Sayaka confess first cause she don't want to take away her best friend's boyfriend
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Old 2012-03-19, 14:57   Link #355
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I still stand by the statement "screw Hitomi".

I don't even really care for Sayaka, I thought she was pretty annoying, but man her fall was pretty damn epic.
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Old 2012-03-19, 15:25   Link #356
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It sucked though considering that she "sacrificed" her humanity to give the boy she loved a second chance only to have that taken away from her. It was pretty unfair that the friend she trusted took away Kamijou while at the same time learning that her body is that of a zombie was a really huge blow to take.

Sayaka's moments of despair and anguish were definitely the most tragic I've ever seen in an heroine in a while. The fact that she brushed aside Madoka's concerns and not seeking the emotional support from a best friend set in motion her descent into madness. I mean out of all the girls wishes Sayaka pretty much got the bad end of the bargain, and not only it cost her humanity, but the opportunity to be with the boy she loved.

Sayaka's my second favourite character in the series because I love her tough as nails, kind, and sincere personally plus she looks awesome as a magical girl. Like Mami, Sayaka's fate really made my heart ache because she deserved better than what she had to endure up until her final moments.
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Old 2012-03-19, 16:25   Link #357
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Well, my biggest issue with Hitomi is that the 24 hour time limit was pretty brutal. If Hitomi had given Sayaka a few days, at least, I'd have much less issue with it.

Secondly, the whole way Hitomi laid out the news and the 24 hour time limit seemed kind of cruel to me. Hitomi's tone and demeanor struck me as pretty hash the entire Hitomi/Sayaka scene. In fact, it was so harsh that I honestly had a theory that Hitomi was a secret agent of Kyubey who he was using to screw things up badly for Sayaka and Madoka, trying to force Madoka to make a wish with him.

This wasn't a good scene for Hitomi. But in fairness, pretty much every girl in this show had at least one scene where they came off badly (yes, even Madoka - re-watch Episode 8, and there's a scene that might stand out to you here).

Aside from this one scene, I liked Hitomi well-enough.
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Old 2012-03-19, 18:50   Link #358
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I wouldn't be so harsh on Hitomi....ultimately it was Kamijou that accepted. The feeling in the anime was that Sayaka's love was one sided. He was grateful for her support, but he never seemed to reciprocate any of her feelings. I think she loved him because of his music, that was the real connection between them. She just wanted him to play again, because he had the gift of playing.

So I guess I'm saying that Sayaka was as naive about love as she was about justice, and I think with her two speeches in 8 and 12, that we see how she grew from both.
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Old 2012-03-19, 21:15   Link #359
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I agree with Solace, though Triple R raises a fair point with the 24 hour limit seeming a bit harsh. OTOH, if you interpret the 24 hours as being more like, "You've had all this time and haven't acted, so if you don't make your move in 24 hours, I will," it doesn't seem quite as cruel.
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Old 2012-03-19, 22:30   Link #360
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I wouldn't be so harsh on Hitomi....ultimately it was Kamijou that accepted. The feeling in the anime was that Sayaka's love was one sided.
That's honestly not the feeling I was getting. I wasn't getting clear signals in either direction here. I don't think that much can be safely assumed about Kamijou's feelings towards Sayaka. It's quite conceivable that he might have accepted a romantic confession from Sayaka if she had made one.

Yes, Kamijou snapped off at Sayaka once, but it was for reasons that didn't have to do with her, per se. Listening to beautiful violin music when he no longer could play the violin filled him with angry regret, at least for a moment. It's understandable.


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He was grateful for her support, but he never seemed to reciprocate any of her feelings.
How can you reciprocate something that you don't even know is there? Was Kamijo reciprocating any feelings to Hitomi before she confessed to him?


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I think she loved him because of his music, that was the real connection between them. She just wanted him to play again, because he had the gift of playing.

So I guess I'm saying that Sayaka was as naive about love as she was about justice, and I think with her two speeches in 8 and 12, that we see how she grew from both.
I don't think that she was naive about justice. Love, perhaps, but not justice.

What's naive about wanting to protect the people that you love? What's naive about objecting to somebody letting innocent people die in order to collect Grief Seeds? I don't think a person would need to be naive to agree with Sayaka here. I'm certainly inclined to agree with her on both of these points.



The 24 hour time limit really was harsh, and I think it's a perfectly fair point to raise against Hitomi. Intentionally or not, that was cruel of Hitomi. Especially when you consider how she delivered the revelation to Sayaka. She could have been less blunt in her words, and tried to soften the blow. She did nothing of the sort.

Now, I don't think that this ruins Hitomi's character or means that she should be completely hated. But I don't see the point in sugarcoating what Hitomi did. In truth, she put romantic desire before long-standing friendship. She has a right to do that, but viewers also have a right to disagree with it.


And I don't find the interpretation offered up by Akashin that compelling. Kamijo was in the hospital for serious injuries. Is that really the best time to make a romantic confession to him? I think Sayaka had perfectly good reasons for putting that off, and Hitomi shouldn't hold that against her.
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