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Old 2011-08-02, 08:18   Link #161
Kallen4life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macros617 View Post
Yeah in Sasuke's battle with Danzo, even Danzo stated that Sasuke's genjutsu was no where near as powerful as Itachi's. Since we've only been used to seeing Itachi's almighty Tsukiyomi with the time manipulation some people probably overlook any of sasuke's genjutsu as not being tsukiyomi. But if you look at what happens to Sasuke everytime he casts genjutsu with his MS eye (his body aches and he grabs his eye) it happens just like it happens to Itachi. It's definitely nowhere as potent as Itachi's, but Sasuke has always been a ninjutsu type ninja; therefore I believe his MS powers are more attuned to ninjutsu and that's why he can do shape manipulation.
that is/was my general understanding, but some people are very adamant in their views


the end result is that we've seen Sasuke do all 3 :
1) cast Amaterasu
2) shape it
3) use MS genjutsu w/o time manipulation
.. I personally just consider 1 & 2 to be one skill .. but it probably doesn't matter and he'll likely have all of those powers and more with EMS
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Old 2011-08-02, 08:54   Link #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
He already demonstrated the flame manipulation against bee when he extinguished amaterasu.
Quote:
I'm not implying, I'm stating an established fact : Sasuke used his right MS to manipulate the flame and save Karin at the end of the fight against Bee.
Itachi could also extinguish Amaterasu, as shown in his fight against Sasuke, where he smothered the flames to, according to Zetsu, preserve Sasuke's eyes. That was straight after he used Amaterasu to counter a stronger Goukakyu. I fail to see how this ties back to the chapter 'A New Power!' when the feat had already been accomplished. If anything, this only lends credence to Sasuke slowly gaining a higher level of mastery over Amaterasu, but as explicited by Danzou later on, he pales in comparison to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

Being able to manipulate Amaterasu as the 'requirement' for Susanoo? There's no reason to believe that.
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Old 2011-08-02, 09:52   Link #163
Cista
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Hey guys, Narutopedia states that Sasuke is in fact, capable of using Tsukuyomi.


http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tsukuyomi (at the list of users, Sasuke is listed.)
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Old 2011-08-02, 10:12   Link #164
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Originally Posted by Cista View Post
Hey guys, Narutopedia states that Sasuke is in fact, capable of using Tsukuyomi.


http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tsukuyomi (at the list of users, Sasuke is listed.)
Unfortunately that is not very good evidence of Sasuke capable of doing Tsukuyomi. Anyone can edit a wiki.
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Old 2011-08-02, 10:25   Link #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
established fact is that he has shape manipulation, not that it completely replaced Tsukuyomi for him
Please, try to follow the argument going on (or read your own posts). Everything has already been said about whether he uses Tsukuyomi, the point I was making here was merely about correcting false statements : you claimed that Sasuke used first Susanoo's ribs before ever using Shape Manipulation on Amaterasu. It was not true.
While I was at it I decided to post some pics to correct a few more statements and establish a timeline about a few things ending with the fact that Sasuke didn't say anything specific about needing Tsukuyomi.

As I said numerous times now, I'm not fundamentally against your notion. The main power in Sasuke's right eye could be a watered down Tsukuyomi, or Genjutsu in general or even something about Yin/Yang chakra with the creation of the black flames in the physical world with left MS and control of the mind over matter with spiritual power for Genjutsu and Enton with the right.
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Old 2011-08-02, 10:40   Link #166
Kallen4life
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Quote:
you claimed that Sasuke used first Susanoo's ribs before ever using Shape Manipulation on Amaterasu
I did because I did not (and possibly still do not) consider the extinguishing of flames to be a part of the manipulation skill (and if the above poster is correct and Itachi also extinguished his Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke then it's obviously NOT a part of it .. gonna have to check that)

anyway, you clarified your point, so it's okay




P.S. some people do take this personally


Quote:
The main power in Sasuke's right eye could be a watered down Tsukuyomi, or Genjutsu in general
that's very vague (considering he specifically activates MS for it), I'd much rather stick to the watered-down Tsukuyomi version





edit : yep, checked it - Sasuke got hit in his cursed seal form wing with Amaterasu, Itachi extinguished it, just left a burnt (not burning) wing (ch. 390) .. so that's not part of Shape Manipulation, which makes sense (turning off is not manipulating) + Kagutsuchi was first named only during the Raikage fight soon after Susanoo ribs sprouted
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Last edited by Kallen4life; 2011-08-02 at 10:54.
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Old 2011-08-02, 14:08   Link #167
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
and if the above poster is correct and Itachi also extinguished his Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke then it's obviously NOT a part of it .. gonna have to check that

edit : yep, checked it - Sasuke got hit in his cursed seal form wing with Amaterasu, Itachi extinguished it, just left a burnt (not burning) wing (ch. 390) .. so that's not part of Shape Manipulation, which makes sense (turning off is not manipulating) + Kagutsuchi was first named only during the Raikage fight soon after Susanoo ribs sprouted
In fact it never says anything about Itachi extinguishing the flames, it says that he stopped using his amaterasu. But as you could see the amaterasu burned down the lower body part of Sasuke (that is his fake body). There was nothing left of his lower body part and his "wings", amaterasu burned it to ashes, which means Itachi did not stop the burning of it, he just didn't amaterasu-look at Sasuke's upper body and head. When Sasuke first extinguished the flames with his eyes it was clearly a new power (as noted by many people in that chapter's thread), first of all while Itachi uses one eye Sasuke used both, the Enton ability was in his other eye.

There were levels of susano, first of all after Sasuke used the Enton on karin and the fake-Bee he was able to used only the lowest level of susano, then he proceeded to use shape manipulation on higher levels against the raikage, as his shape maniplulation evolved so did his susano, at the end of the fight he had a susano upper body with some flesh. He was mastering Enton but never mastered Tsukiyomi, but as we know for Susano he needs to master the jutsu in both eyes, this is stated by Sasuke himself at the end of his fight against the raikage. We know he didn't master Tsukiyomi, but he became rather good with Enton, which is made with the other eye, which means Tsukiyomi was never a requirement for Sasuke's Susano, there is no connection between the two in case of Sasuke.
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Old 2011-08-02, 15:10   Link #168
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C commented on the level of the chakra that Sasuke has active when he used Susano'o, stating that it was the same as when Sasuke hit him with the Genjitsu in question. Now this begs the question, does Sasuke really have to pump all that advance blood-line chakra into a generic genjitsu or was that chakra needed for the Mangekyo Sharingan's Tsukiyomi?
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Old 2011-08-02, 15:21   Link #169
Kallen4life
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nope, Zetsu specifically commented that Itachi stopped Amaterasu on Sasuke (it continued raging outisde), before it could burn him completely to ashes (that's what it does), it only managed to burn his wing somewhat before it was stopped by Itachi

pretty clear picture there
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Old 2011-08-02, 15:51   Link #170
Akashin
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Not really... He didn't put out the flames at all, he just consciously didn't have them burn Sasuke completely, which was probably done simply by not focusing Amaterasu on burning him completely (I could be wrong, but I don't think Amaterasu naturally spreads beyond what the user wanted to burn). That's not really the same as consciously dousing the flames.
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Old 2011-08-02, 16:56   Link #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Not really... He didn't put out the flames at all, he just consciously didn't have them burn Sasuke completely, which was probably done simply by not focusing Amaterasu on burning him completely (I could be wrong, but I don't think Amaterasu naturally spreads beyond what the user wanted to burn). That's not really the same as consciously dousing the flames.
The crap? Itachi stopped his Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke. There's no way around it. You're just playing with semantics.

Sasuke's fight with Bee was just meant to showcase both his Tsukuyomi and his Amaterasu capabilities/mastery, before the big reveal at the summit: Susanoo
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Old 2011-08-02, 17:07   Link #172
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
The crap? Itachi stopped his Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke. There's no way around it. You're just playing with semantics.

Sasuke's fight with Bee was just meant to showcase both his Tsukuyomi and his Amaterasu capabilities/mastery, before the big reveal at the summit: Susanoo
That he stopped it is exactly what I said... Unless I explained myself poorly? Really, I'm not sure what semantics I'm playing with here.
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Old 2011-08-02, 17:07   Link #173
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The point isn't whether Itachi stopped the flame -he did- it's what does it got to do with anything? How does this fact change that Sasuke discovered he could manipulate the flames with his right eye which happened on panel and was then plainly explained in the manga?

Itachi was better at Genjutsu and that reflected in his use of the MS is all. This "argument" is as absurd as claiming that since Sasuke can also use Genjutsu with his MS then Itachi cannot do better by manipulating time with Tsukuyomi. When Sasuke, who's better at Ninjutsu, discovered than he could manipulate the flame with his right eye he went further and developped his skill toward Kagutsuchi. He can also use Genjutsu but not to such a degree.
Similarly Itachi is considerably more skilled at Genjutsu, hence Tsukuyomi, but can also use Amaterasu and put it out even if he couldn't drastically change its shape like Sasuke.
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Old 2011-08-03, 00:59   Link #174
Kallen4life
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The point isn't whether Itachi stopped the flame -he did- it's what does it got to do with anything?
because you said Sasuke's stopping the flames on Karin was Shape Manipulation .. it wasn't, it's part of the 'standart Amaterasu package', Itachi could do it too .. so the first time Manipulation was actually used was during the Raikage fight after Susanoo's ribs formed



P.S. sigh, this is getting so tiresome =/ .. I'd rather stop
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Old 2011-08-03, 01:24   Link #175
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It’s that times of week again; the new chapter thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2011-08-03, 02:25   Link #176
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
nope, Zetsu specifically commented that Itachi stopped Amaterasu on Sasuke (it continued raging outisde), before it could burn him completely to ashes (that's what it does), it only managed to burn his wing somewhat before it was stopped by Itachi

pretty clear picture there
It never said that Itachi extinguished the flames, even if he did it. So let's go with the author's will and not whatever smaller plot holes there may be. What we have seen is a completely burned lower body part of Sasuke, the flame as Zetsu commented does not stop until it completely burns it's target, so if the target was not Sasuke's head and upper body part then it won't burn those. It stopped burning when everything that was Itachi's "target" burned down, and that's it. So my interpretation is that Itachi stopped casting the jutsu and not that he used some other jutsu, but of course your interpretation of putting it out can also have a reason, but it's reasonable because the whole amaterasu burning physics is broken. As we could see the amaterasu flames were spreading in the forest somewhat, for example they spread and burned Orochimaru's white snake that was escaping. Also it was said by Zetsu that they can burn anything, even flames. But in this case even a tiny amatersu flame should burn down the forest, then burn down the whole planet Because it was not established what would stop amaterasu spreading to other objects, like it spread to other trees and the white snake, these were never Itachi's targets. Also it was never explained how fast it can burn down the targer, why is it burning for 7 days and nights if it stops when it burned down it's target, how long time does it take to burn down a human being or a mountain or a forest, how is the target defined by looking at it, etc.

So this is a minor plot hole, just like when Gaara is able to defend against Sasuke looking at him, i mean amaterasu-looking. You can't move sand faster than Sasuke's eyes can move So better to stick with what the author wanted to say, and it's quite clear that the author wanted to show what Hunter has explained in his last post about what is the exact difference between Sasuke's and Itachi's powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
it wasn't, it's part of the 'standart Amaterasu package', Itachi could do it too ..
You are directly contradicted by the manga itself, C (if i remember correctly) commented on this in the manga when Sasuke used Enton against A.
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Old 2011-08-03, 02:40   Link #177
Kallen4life
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whatever, really going in circles here and new chapter is out

my point was that :
1) Itachi extinguished the flames on Sasuke just as Sasuke later did on Karin .. nothing was burned to ashes, Sasuke's wing caught black fire, Itachi stopped it from burning him down completely (you can see fire raging on it in one panel, in the next it's just a somewhat burnt wing (it's still intact more or less, as is the body), no flames on it) .. Zetsu commented that he did it to protect the eyes .. also, Amaterasu doesn't actually burn things down that quick, in the Raikage fight, when A dodged it, some Iron Samurai in armor got blasted with it and it didn't manage to burn through the armor completely before it was yanked off by Kankuro
2) extinguishing the flames is part of the Amaterasu skill itself, not Shape Manipulation, hence Itachi could do it too
3) Shape Manipulation was first used by Sasuke in the Raikage fight - he put on the newly formed incomplete Susanoo



moving on to 550 now
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