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Old 2011-08-03, 22:44   Link #23561
cronnoponno
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It was agreed on beforehand that the condition for Erika having those seals, that she would tell BATTLER ''as soon'' as she placed them, and then she literally goes ''I know I was supposed to tell you earlier, but it slipped my mind, oops, sorry! That wouldn't.....well...I was just wondering if the tale would be a little different had you known that....''


That was such bs, Erika should have been able to be a bitch without doing this, when you show that you're willing to go so far to break rules and honor to troll, you're not a very good troll.
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Old 2011-08-03, 23:10   Link #23562
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Could Ronove do the same thing? Alternately, could Virgilia do all the things Ronove does? If so, you can cut one of them with little to no effect.
You're right. They're different enough in EP3, though, is the thing. And apparently it's the best Ryukishi can be satisfied with that episode after many revisions, so I'll let him have these two characters.

Quote:
I still think the biggest flaw was that Ryűkishi was actually playing a game with the readers. He might have kept the core story intact, but it really showed in terms of character development. Sometimes I wonder how it would have developed if he hadn't cared for this as a battle of wits at all.
The game thing was really the best part of Umineko. The thing is he didn't follow through on it like a total puss.

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Wow, I didn't think you guys disliked certain parts of the Meta World, I liked every part of it, and there were times where I was thinking ''Get on with it, I want to see some red and blue fights!'', I also liked the development even though most of it was pointless, like Goat-Kun.
I loved it all too, but...he really did a bad job with it on a technical level.

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I don't remember him needing permission to do this.
Readers don't take retcons very well. You can fuck with your story but don't expect the other players to stay.

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It was agreed on beforehand that the condition for Erika having those seals, that she would tell BATTLER ''as soon'' as she placed them, and then she literally goes ''I know I was supposed to tell you earlier, but it slipped my mind, oops, sorry! That wouldn't.....well...I was just wondering if the tale would be a little different had you known that....''
She never agreed to inform him ASAP, technically. Only that she WOULD at some point.

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That was such bs, Erika should have been able to be a bitch without doing this, when you show that you're willing to go so far to break rules and honor to troll, you're not a very good troll.
Her intention was to break the game from the start.
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Old 2011-08-03, 23:13   Link #23563
cronnoponno
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No, Erika and Dlanor made it clear that they would tell him as soon as they placed the seals, hang on I'm going to get the scene so I can get some quotes.

Dlanor:

''UNDERSTOOD.... Lady Erika will also retroactively adjust her movements, starting before the discovery of the first twilight, and taking into account that the application of this privilege is now POSSIBLE. ......as soon as these changes take affect in the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER.'' Sealing Battler's room would have changed the progression of the game regardless of what logic you try to use, because even if Battler was alive, or dead, anyone going in or out of the room would have obviously had to know about the tapes resistance, Piece-Battler would never have been able to leave his room had he known the tape was still there, and even if he wasn't the culprit, no culprit is going to walk into a door with a detectives tape on it.



Erika:
''Actually, there's something I need to apologize for...''

Either Beato or Battler:
''Apologize....?''

Erika:It's about those retroactive seals, .....Actually, I have already sealed one place. I apologize for taking so long to report this to you''

Battler:
''You already sealed something?....In other words, you've already used up all three rooms worth?''

Erika:
''Yes I promised I'd report it right away, but I completely forgot until just now, you have my sincere apologies.''(this is obviously a lie)

And Erika wouldn't completely break the game unless she did it within the rules, anyone can break a game when they break obvious rules. If I wanted to troll someone playing chess, I wouldn't neglect telling them I took one of their pawns or something when they left to the bathroom, instead I would probably move one piece back and fourth constantly and have them complain, it still follows the rules(unless this rule is made beforehand), and it's even more of a troll if I end up winning. But would you honestly feel any shame if someone pulled such bs on you in a chess game, or any game for that matter? No you'd kick their ass and not play a game with them ever again, would your will to play chess be crushed after facing such an unfair defeat? No, there is no game breaking this way.

It just makes you think ''Yeah, you might have broke the game, but that was a pretty weak and pathetic way to do it'', I just can't see her as a superior intellectual rapist if this is how she plays, my image of her was just sort of ruined after that.


Also, Battler does NOT get permission to rewrite the tale, he does it as soon as he gives Erika the tape without any agreement, Dlanor asks if they should treat the tape as if they had got it from Kumasawa, and Battler says ''Yes I'll rewrite the tale now''. The narrative between Ange and Featherine also explained that if a magicians trick is seen-through, they're allowed to change the trick as long as the result is matched, it's just hard to think of a different scenario so quickly when you've already planned for one.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-03 at 23:45.
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Old 2011-08-03, 23:38   Link #23564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The game thing was really the best part of Umineko. The thing is he didn't follow through on it like a total puss.
Yeah, of course it was the best part, but he was trying too damn hard to make everybody enjoy it. Like you said, he whimped out on creating a more difficult approach in order not to loose any readers in the process.

I also didn't actually understand his idea of "I only hear complaining and no voices from mystery fans...therefore there doesn't seem to be any group of readers knowledgable about mystery archetypes, so I need to treat my readers like toddlers in that department"...
Yes, I get it, many people were and still are bitchy about certain parts of Umineko and it's not like the locked room lecture or the cat box parable weren't fun the way they were explained in the plot...but I think if the reader doesn't get there, it shouldn't be the authors duty to spoonfeed it to him.

I still think the metaworld and it's characters would have been much more compact and streamlined if he had stayed with his Virgilius idea...
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Old 2011-08-04, 00:18   Link #23565
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Her intention was to break the game from the start.
And also Battler was expecting her to and deliberately created a scenario where she'd have ample opportunity to do it. Genius!
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Old 2011-08-04, 00:28   Link #23566
cronnoponno
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Well, I don't see how Erika could not have known this ahead of time, does Battler really have no knowledge of the fact that if he tried to emulate his tale, his piece would have noticed that there was tape on the door? Or can Erika actually do magic and only have it take affect as soon as she announces it?
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Old 2011-08-04, 00:31   Link #23567
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And Erika wouldn't completely break the game unless she did it within the rules, anyone can break a game when they break obvious rules. If I wanted to troll someone playing chess, I wouldn't neglect telling them I took one of their pawns or something when they left to the bathroom, instead I would probably move one piece back and fourth constantly and have them complain, it still follows the rules(unless this rule is made beforehand), and it's even more of a troll if I end up winning. But would you honestly feel any shame if someone pulled such bs on you in a chess game, or any game for that matter? No you'd kick their ass and not play a game with them ever again, would your will to play chess be crushed after facing such an unfair defeat? No, there is no game breaking this way.
And a promise is a rule...how?

BATTLER DID NOT ACTUALLY COERCE OR DEMAND THAT SHE REPORT THINGS. She made the promise herself, and nothing binds her to it.

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It just makes you think ''Yeah, you might have broke the game, but that was a pretty weak and pathetic way to do it'', I just can't see her as a superior intellectual rapist if this is how she plays, my image of her was just sort of ruined after that.
And if Battler was a competent Gamemaster, this shouldn't of stopped him whatsoever. Just like a Rules Lawyer in D&D jumps through rules loopholes to take over the game and get what they want; if the Gamemaster expects them to stick to the virtue of their word and just takes them for it, or does nothing to clean up the situation after it blows up in their face, well...they're incompetent.

And the whole reason Erika did all this is to prove that Battler is incompetent.

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I also didn't actually understand his idea of "I only hear complaining and no voices from mystery fans...therefore there doesn't seem to be any group of readers knowledgable about mystery archetypes, so I need to treat my readers like toddlers in that department"...
Yes, I get it, many people were and still are bitchy about certain parts of Umineko and it's not like the locked room lecture or the cat box parable weren't fun the way they were explained in the plot...but I think if the reader doesn't get there, it shouldn't be the authors duty to spoonfeed it to him.
In total fairness, he was presenting the mystery to a demographic that is largely unfamiliar with Mystery conventions, and he needs them to like the story so they'll pay him. If everyone throws their hands up in frustration like they did with EP2, he's screwed at a professional level.

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Well, I don't see how Erika could not have known this ahead of time, does Battler really have no knowledge of the fact that if he tried to emulate his tale, his piece would have noticed that there was tape on the door? Or can Erika actually do magic and only have it take affect as soon as she announces it?
When playing Dungeons and Dragons, can the player see the lock on a dungeon door? No, they can't, unless the Dungeonmaster tells them it's there. And if a player rolls a 15 on the dice, the Dungeonmaster can't know that unless they see the dice themselves.

Magic doesn't exist. Battler can't just walk into a fictional universe he created and conjure up details he didn't already write, so if Erika made an edit behind his back she needs to reveal it.
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Old 2011-08-04, 00:47   Link #23568
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Well, that sucks, but regardless it was still a major bitch move, I think an antagonist that puts such a high profile on themselves should play the role of the big bad without resorting to majorly cheap tactics.
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:03   Link #23569
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
No, Erika and Dlanor made it clear that they would tell him as soon as they placed the seals, hang on I'm going to get the scene so I can get some quotes.

Dlanor:

''UNDERSTOOD.... Lady Erika will also retroactively adjust her movements, starting before the discovery of the first twilight, and taking into account that the application of this privilege is now POSSIBLE. ......as soon as these changes take affect in the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER.'' Sealing Battler's room would have changed the progression of the game regardless of what logic you try to use, because even if Battler was alive, or dead, anyone going in or out of the room would have obviously had to know about the tapes resistance, Piece-Battler would never have been able to leave his room had he known the tape was still there, and even if he wasn't the culprit, no culprit is going to walk into a door with a detectives tape on it.
AT makes good points, but to state the case further...

The wording you provided was:

"......as soon as these changes take affect in the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER.''

...which is grammatically incorrect ("affect" should be "effect"). So I double-checked it myself and it turns out that you misread after all. The correct wording is:

"......as soon as these changes affect the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER"

The progression of the Game is as Battler tells the story, even if his narrative provides information on past events. In other words, even if someone was confirmed to be in a certain room at 1:00 A.M. and the story is currently at 3:00 A.M., no one actually left the room at any time between 1:00-3:00 A.M. until Battler confirms that the room is empty. Whether she sealed the room or not, the progression of the Game was not affected. In this regard, she did not technically cheat.

Honestly, Beato's Kanon is dead and Shannon is dead bullshit is more like cheating than this.

Quote:
Erika: ''Yes I promised I'd report it right away, but I completely forgot until just now, you have my sincere apologies.''(this is obviously a lie)
Yep. She's a bitch.
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:12   Link #23570
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Ugh. I made that typo twice, what is wrong with me today...
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:14   Link #23571
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Well, that sucks, but regardless it was still a major bitch move, I think an antagonist that puts such a high profile on themselves should play the role of the big bad without resorting to majorly cheap tactics.
But the whole thing about Erika is she doesn't care about respect, honor, fairness, or even class. She just doesn't give a shit enough about everyone else to even bother. That's why she's such a villain.

Also what Wanderer said.
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:26   Link #23572
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But the whole thing about Erika is she doesn't care about respect, honor, fairness, or even class. She just doesn't give a shit enough about everyone else to even bother. That's why she's such a villain.

Also what Wanderer said.
And that's why my image was ruined for her, I started to think when she basically presented herself as an intellectual rapist that she was really good at totally mindfucking everyone, and that she could truly do something like Bernkastel did in EP7, but then she just did something any common thug could have thought of, I mean wow don't tell the game master something then watch him slip up on it. It's like a teacher asking a student if he did his homework, the student says no, or doesn't answer willfully which implies a no, and in the middle of his scolding the student pulls out his homework, revealing that he actually did it, and that the teacher is incompetent for scolding him based off of the information she was given.


The student should really be trolling the teacher by being outright smarter than her, using logic to the morals she tells the class to believe in, and basically making her job much harder by giving her a true mental assault, anyone could of thought of doing the above example. Anyone who calls themselves an intellectual rapist and stops at the above, makes me sad, and I guess that works, but it just sort of ruined my opinion of her. Like in Kindergarden, if a teacher tries to explain that a Crime Fighter fights crime to make the streets peaceful, a good troll would be for the student to then say ''Then what does a freedom fighter fight, huh?!?'' The teacher would have no logical comeback to this, so she'd have to completely revise herself and explain the differences between the two, thus being outwitted by a student.

I guess she wasn't supposed to be the MAJOR villain though, and she did a good job for the position she was in.
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:49   Link #23573
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And that's why my image was ruined for her, I started to think when she basically presented herself as an intellectual rapist that she was really good at totally mindfucking everyone, and that she could truly do something like Bernkastel did in EP7, but then she just did something any common thug could have thought of, I mean wow don't tell the game master something then watch him slip up on it. It's like a teacher asking a student if he did his homework, the student says no, or doesn't answer willfully which implies a no, and in the middle of his scolding the student pulls out his homework, revealing that he actually did it, and that the teacher is incompetent for scolding him based off of the information she was given.
No, that's an incredibly bad analogy, because those actions have entirely different consequences, ramifications, and social expectations. It's more like the D&D example I explained. Moreover, there IS a level of cunning in that she had to convince him to give her that much power, and she had to move around his blindspots without him noticing.

Quote:
The student should really be trolling the teacher by being outright smarter than her, using logic to the morals she tells the class to believe in, and basically making her job much harder by giving her a true mental assault, anyone could of thought of doing the above example. Anyone who calls themselves an intellectual rapist and stops at the above, makes me sad, and I guess that works, but it just sort of ruined my opinion of her. Like in Kindergarden, if a teacher tries to explain that a Crime Fighter fights crime to make the streets peaceful, a good troll would be for the student to then say ''Then what does a freedom fighter fight, huh?!?'' The teacher would have no logical comeback to this, so she'd have to completely revise herself and explain the differences between the two, thus being outwitted by a student.
See above. Besides, you're kind of misusing the term 'trolling', and on that note, the freedom fighter analogy does nothing to show the teacher as incompetent because the teacher didn't invent the term. Really, my D&D example is the only one that really fits this unique sort of context that Umineko's Metaworld provides.
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Old 2011-08-04, 01:59   Link #23574
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How is acting like a sport, then turning around and being a bitch cunning? That doesn't take cunning, at best, it takes good acting, anyone could do that.(Yeah I just looked up cunning saying this wasn't very smart for me to say.)

Plus, I haven't played D&D, but I watched Jan's witches&woodlands short(which I was incredibly impressed with), so I don't understand what you're saying too much about the D&D analogy, but that also doesn't sound like a nice way to play, it involves the same level of deceit and trickery that I was talking about.

In Witches&Woodlands I like Erika more, because she played by everything without using cheap tactics, and put up a hell of a fight(and if it weren't for them ''using magic on the dice'', she would have totally succeeded).

I forgot the technical name of the spell Dlanor used there to reveal any doors, but if Dlanor had used the spell, and Beatrice ''forgot to mention one'' and tried to treat it as if it existed later by just saying ''sorry there was another door'', wouldn't that be similar to what Erika does here?

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-04 at 02:17.
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Old 2011-08-04, 02:13   Link #23575
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How is acting like a sport, then turning around and being a bitch cunning? That doesn't take cunning, at best, it takes good acting, anyone could do that.(Yeah I just looked up cunning saying this wasn't very smart.)
It takes cunning to deceive someone who is nearly omniscient, I would think. You're misrepresenting what Erika actually did, here.

Quote:
Plus, I haven't played D&D, but I watched Jan's witches&woodlands short(which I was incredibly impressed with), so I don't understand what you're saying too much about the D&D analogy, but that also doesn't sound like a nice way to play, it involves the same level of deceit and trickery that I was talking about.
Yea, it's not a nice way to play, but no one ever said it was. Erika was still dickish, underhanded, nasty, slimy, and shitty, but it was consistent with how she acted so far and it doesn't make her seem like a thug.

A rules lawyer is basically someone who follows the letter of the games' rules instead of the spirit, and effectively looks for loopholes in order to get what they want to the detriment of everyone else's fun. Erika's behavior in Jan-Poo's story is Rules Lawyerism, except it's not-so-shitty because he didn't want to leave Beatrice a legitimate means of weaseling out. The point of both actions, however, was the same: To prove that the Gamemaster was incompetent and no good; if they were as capable as they claimed they should be able to handle Erika's actions in stride, right?

The problem is that the Game being played in Umineko doesn't really have rules of Ryukishi has to sort of wing it and go with whatever is dramatic at the time, which works for the most part since everyone involved is some sort of pansdimensional being but in situations like this it's pretty bullshit. I think the actual core of your complaint is more along the lines of: How the fuck did Erika actually get away with it? Genius Battler explains this nicely.

I don't think this is really anything different from how Erika's ever behaved. How much different is it from basically using magical powers to get her way in EP5 and then RIGGING THE COURTS to get the answer she wants, to the point of getting Red Truths she wanted and for even DENYING A RED TRUTH that hurt her theory?

SHIT, I'd take what she did in EP6 over literally ignoring Natsuhi is pure and faithful as if it was never said.

Quote:
I forgot the technical name of the spell Dlanor used there to reveal any doors, but if Dlanor had used the spell, and Beatrice ''forgot to mention one'' and tried to treat it as if it existed later by just saying ''sorry there was another door'', wouldn't that be similar to what Erika does here?
No, not really. The difference is Beatrice is using her Gamemaster's authority to change the story retroactively, taking advantage of the players' ignorance to sneak out. Erika actually did perform the actions she claims she did in real time, but failed to inform Battler, who honestly should know better. If he was competent, he should have noticed without being told since he's omniscient or some shit.
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Old 2011-08-04, 02:35   Link #23576
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Well, the thing is, the way the Game works is all kind of murky to begin with. For example, when Battler played the human side, meta-Battler could not share information or control piece-Battler, but meta-Erika seems to be completely one and the same with piece-Erika. And killing all of the play-deaders in ep6 without the Game master knowing seems pretty inconsistent to me too. Although it made for a splendid twist for other reasons.

Anyway, the meta-stuff especially doesn't even have a clear set of rules... in fact it only gets more confusing as the story progresses. Even red text is often wordplay bullshit.
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Old 2011-08-04, 03:14   Link #23577
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Like I said, Rule of Drama.
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Old 2011-08-04, 07:21   Link #23578
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As far as I interpreted, during the locked Battler room a new rule was introduced. In that rule everything happened instantaneously, like a rapid fire session. I think they said as much. Now the point is how did Erika kill them without Battler knowing? As long as the possibility of an action occurring is greater than 0 , then it might as well have happened. She came up with the idea that she murdered all of those in the rooms, since there was no way Battler could make the possibility that she murdered them 0 it rose to become a red truth.

The way Battler carefully worded his red truth regarding the "murders" in the rooms left Erika an opening she later exploited. Had Battler stated that there would not be any murders in those rooms after the doors where opened , Erika just wouldn't have been able to kill them. Well, I mean she could have drag them out of the room and stabbed them but...
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Old 2011-08-04, 08:15   Link #23579
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
In total fairness, he was presenting the mystery to a demographic that is largely unfamiliar with Mystery conventions, and he needs them to like the story so they'll pay him. If everyone throws their hands up in frustration like they did with EP2, he's screwed at a professional level.
Well, it's not like he couldn't expect there to be enough mystery buffs who would read it. Mystery (with there being the 新本格 movement and all) is one of the biggest literary genres in Japan. Classical Mystery novels are often enough in the book charts and he at least mentioned people like Higashino Keigo, who is read by almost anybody in Japan, being an inspiration. And there were at least a few people who likened it to Anti Mystery novels like 虚無への供物 like it was said in the interview...
It's understandable on a professional level, but I still think he gave up too soon. It's not like they weren't there, I think it's just that the people who didn't understand were louder.

But yeah, he admitted himself that the root of that "problem" probably was that he went major and started thinking more about the reader than about what he wanted to do. I kinda liked his curry shop metaphor.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, the thing is, the way the Game works is all kind of murky to begin with. For example, when Battler played the human side, meta-Battler could not share information or control piece-Battler, but meta-Erika seems to be completely one and the same with piece-Erika. And killing all of the play-deaders in ep6 without the Game master knowing seems pretty inconsistent to me too. Although it made for a splendid twist for other reasons.

Anyway, the meta-stuff especially doesn't even have a clear set of rules... in fact it only gets more confusing as the story progresses. Even red text is often wordplay bullshit.
Wordplay bullshit, yes. Though it's a question in how far it's bullshit when it was openly revealed that the way it is constructed can be a trick or a hint in itself.
But I agree, the Kanon is dead/Shannon is dead thing was a little too murky...but had he done it otherwise it would have been revealed from the start.
It's more of an inherent problem of the concept of red text and less a problem of the story...for me.

And I think there could be an explanation for why Battler couldn't intervene and Erika can. Beatrice's game was completely under her command, she didn't give Battler any rights to effectively highjack the game except for maybe a few keypoints where we can't be perfectly sure...like the finale of EP4.
But Erika was inserted on Bern's plead to Lambda (who served as a gamemaster then) and the games from that point on where created in a different way. Battler just carried that system over to his game and laid a trap for Erika in making her feel too secure.
It is kinda important that the meta world in EP2-4 and 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 are each pretty different things, I think. They have different people involved, both in the metaworld itself and in the real world that is represented by it.
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Old 2011-08-04, 08:20   Link #23580
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, the thing is, the way the Game works is all kind of murky to begin with. For example, when Battler played the human side, meta-Battler could not share information or control piece-Battler, but meta-Erika seems to be completely one and the same with piece-Erika. And killing all of the play-deaders in ep6 without the Game master knowing seems pretty inconsistent to me too. Although it made for a splendid twist for other reasons.
If something appears to be inconsistent with prior information, and the explanation provided as to how it happened doesn't seem to make sense of it, perhaps you are seeing something else entirely.

For example, while Piece and Meta-Erika appear to be the same person, you have to be open to the possibility that they are not. For the purposes of derailing the story, Erika might well just be appending to her board character actions she could have taken, in order to construct a logical conundrum. The seals could be seen to be the same way; we never actually see Piece-Erika seal anything, Battler just gives her assurances that the seals she selects will not be broken. If Dawn is based on a "real" story, the odds are the Erika of that story did not seal any rooms and probably did not kill anyone either.

And you raise the most obvious problem: How could Erika do something without the Game Master knowing? All the evidence of previous Game Masters and the information given about the BATTLER-form of Battler itself suggest he is transcendent and omniscient. How can he not know what's happening in his own story?

There's really only two explanations I can think of that make any sense:
  • Genius Battler. He did know what Erika was doing, and was baiting her into trapping him on purpose.
  • Metaphor. Battler-as-Author (Tohya basically) experienced something - perhaps a suggestion, or a Forgery - that derailed his train of thought and made him reexamine his own story (that is, Tohya's Dawn of the Golden Witch). In the sense that he knew everything he wrote, he is omniscient; however, when someone pointed out a potential flaw or new way of thinking or alteration to his work, he became more fixated on that, and on imagining how Beatrice-as-Author (that is, the message bottle writer) would have extricated herself from the situation.
Anything relying on Battler being genuinely surprised for reasons other than meta-meta-narrative is just kind of stupid, I'd say.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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