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Old 2011-07-29, 20:28   Link #361
Xion Valkyrie
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The thing is, despite all the bitching and crying about WoW, most WoW players like WoW. However, they are getting tired of it so they are looking for essentially a better version of WoW to switch.

Game devs are also aware of this fact, hence they try to make games that are very similar to WoW, but 'better', hoping to get WoW players to switch. However, most of these games lack polish or content, and most WoW players don't want to keep playing a WoW-like game that's not as good as WoW.

SWTOR will be their next hope of getting a WoW game that's not WoW but still WoW at the same time. With Bioware developing it, and EA dumping massive amounts of money into it, there's a good chance it'll have the content and polish to really be the WoW that's not WoW that the players are looking for.
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Old 2011-07-29, 21:35   Link #362
JagdPanther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheyannew View Post
And today we have ‘The Esseles’ Developer Walkthrough

also yay no loot ninjas!
LOL

The slow-clap by Ironfist is awesome.

I guess the combat reminds me somewhat of KotOR. I just am really not looking forward to having to coordinate with non-AI. Does AI do stupid stuff in any game? Yeah. But I feel like AI isn't as bad as people sometimes. I really would rather solo this game. I just want this game for the story, after all. It's the spiritual successor to KotOR, so hopefully there is enough carry-over in the gameplay to not turn me off.
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Old 2011-07-29, 21:59   Link #363
MeoTwister5
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Part of the fun with loot rolls was the excitement of winning the rare drops you've been grinding for days to get, minus the goddamn ninjas anyway. Maybe it's because I enjoy the gamble, but having guaranteed loot would make raids feel like farming runs rather than a effort-full attempt at better gear.
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Old 2011-07-29, 22:38   Link #364
Mr Hat and Clogs
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The thing is, despite all the bitching and crying about WoW, most WoW players like WoW. However, they are getting tired of it so they are looking for essentially a better version of WoW to switch.
So true, I enjoyed WoW for pretty much 6 years straight but after all that I kinda want to see something different. Fantasy setting MMO's are so old hat these days.

More accurately though for myself, I'm looking forward to being able to play an MMO with my friends who quit WoW over the years. Particularly my RL friends. Something fresh and interesting even if it only in just setting should be enough to tide us over for a couple years.

Heh, although I've been guilty of calling most of the new MMO's these days WoW clones (heavy eye-rolling in the process). I've always thought it too be a bit short sighted, all MMOs have their ups and downs. You can apply the same logic to FPS games, actually I think it's worse there, particularly the military ones where it is almost glaringly apparent - it kinda frustrates me in their similarities.

I look for 3 things 1) are my friends playing, 2) smooth intuitive gameplay (ie like WoW, or Rift), 3) Interesting story and lore. I'd almost rate 3 above 2 if it weren't for the fact that you actually have to do stuff in MMO's.

Biggest problem I see though, and you saw it with WoW, were the RP sections - like the Colosseum, admittedly that place exacerbated this problem due to its design - After watching the NPC dialog the first time people want to skip it every time after. I know they said that you can skip or something, but people are impatient. After the first wave gets through and are onto alts new players are gona miss out on the games big selling point.
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Old 2011-07-30, 01:57   Link #365
Keroko
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Nah, dialogs are only skipped if everyone does so. And while there will be some idiots who'll pressure new players, Guild Wars showed that the majority of the players is surprisingly curious in this regard.
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Old 2011-07-30, 07:47   Link #366
Ak3mi
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Come on Beta im waiting for you
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Old 2011-08-01, 10:17   Link #367
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Most of us who loved Knights of the Old Republic are very upset that we're not seeing a KOTOR3, but instead seeing a soul-sucking online snorefest.
But with the 8 class stories you're effectively getting KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 with this game.... heck to quote a beta tester...

Quote:
Q: I've seen a lot of people wondering about the size of this game, and it often factors into the "How linear is this game?" debates. So, hopefully with your help we can resolve this.

A: From 1-50 it isnt just linear, it's on rails. it plays like a single player rpg.
He also said his rating for this game would be 9.5/10 if he rated it as KOTOR 3, as an mmo he didn't want to give a rating until he saw if a few issues were fixed or not.
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Old 2011-08-01, 14:15   Link #368
ttdestroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Most of us who loved Knights of the Old Republic are very upset that we're not seeing a KOTOR3, but instead seeing a soul-sucking online snorefest.
I know how you feel bro, but it's really all about the money. Would KoTOR 3 sell craploads? Probably? But it's better to sell less copies and make $15 a month off each of your subs...

From what I hear it's closer to a single-player game than a MMO anyway, so take that how you want...
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Old 2011-08-01, 20:04   Link #369
synaesthetic
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Sure, but the problem with online RPGs is that they don't end. There's no concrete ending. So what if the 1-50 level grind is "basically a single-player RPG?" The endgame will be stupid "don't stand in the fire" boss raids for loot to kill stronger bosses that drop stronger loot to kill even stronger bosses that drop even stronger loot to kill...

Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I'd really applaud Bioware if they made this game have a definite end, as in, you complete the storyline and you get a cinematic ending, just like any single-player game. And then you have the option to keep playing after the end for the poopsock endgame.

But I doubt they'll actually do that. EA would never let them--that's money escaping right there. No, I don't hate online RPGs because they're online, or because they're bad games. WoW was a good game, a fun game, and had a wonderful moddable UI.

What pisses me off about online RPGs is they are intentionally designed to be as psychologically addictive and soul-sucking as possible. They want you addicted, logged in and miserable, not having fun but unable to quit due to effort invested and changes promised, as they dangle the carrot of "game balancing patch" or "content patch" and keep you playing and paying. It's how they make money. If they actually added enough content to keep people playing purely for enjoyment above all, they'd go bankrupt. That would require new content added weekly at the very least for the most skilled min-maxers and binge gamers.

They're not games. They're digital drugs, and while I am not saying they should be banned or be illegal, I'm saying that smart people should avoid playing them. At least with a single-player game, even if you play it obsessively, you eventually reach the end and that's it. With online RPGs, the goal is to keep you paying that monthly fee as long as possible.
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Old 2011-08-02, 03:58   Link #370
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Sure, but the problem with online RPGs is that they don't end. There's no concrete ending. So what if the 1-50 level grind is "basically a single-player RPG?" The endgame will be stupid "don't stand in the fire" boss raids for loot to kill stronger bosses that drop stronger loot to kill even stronger bosses that drop even stronger loot to kill...
Complete Jedi Knight story @ Level 50, start Jedi Consular.
Complete Jedi Consular story @ Level 50, start Trooper
repeat 6 more times.

Considering they take like 100+ hours each and there is 8 classes and than each class will get their stories expanded significantly with an expansion every 12-18 months why complain? You don't have to play this like an MMO @ all period I really don't care about raiding myself though I'll definitely be dabbling in PVP (and if its good take it more serious) but I'll mainly be playing this as a KOTOR game.
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Old 2011-08-02, 04:12   Link #371
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'd really applaud Bioware if they made this game have a definite end, as in, you complete the storyline and you get a cinematic ending, just like any single-player game. And then you have the option to keep playing after the end for the poopsock endgame.
That's... pretty much what they're doing. Each class story (by the way, each of the eight classes has its own story in addition to the world quests done by everyone) has its own beginning and ending. World arcs theoretically do too, but I'm not quite sure how they work yet so I'm not putting down any conclusions there. Endgame is pretty much "something terrible and loosely related thing happens and both factions must rush to stop it screws up their plans."
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Old 2011-08-07, 05:16   Link #372
Keroko
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Finally, after the longest wait, the consular update.

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Old 2011-08-07, 06:02   Link #373
MeoTwister5
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Precisely the class I've always wanted to play. Always had an attraction to healing/buffing/support characters. Sure you can't deal as much damage or take as many hits as everyone else, but everyone knows that if you die, the entire party dies.
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Old 2011-08-07, 09:45   Link #374
Kyero Fox
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Suprised they made the video with a male >_> but I guess its far since they did trooper as a woman.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:40   Link #375
Aqua Knight
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What a badass consular!!
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Old 2011-08-07, 22:46   Link #376
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
What pisses me off about online RPGs is they are intentionally designed to be as psychologically addictive and soul-sucking as possible. They want you addicted, logged in and miserable, not having fun but unable to quit due to effort invested and changes promised, as they dangle the carrot of "game balancing patch" or "content patch" and keep you playing and paying. It's how they make money. If they actually added enough content to keep people playing purely for enjoyment above all, they'd go bankrupt. That would require new content added weekly at the very least for the most skilled min-maxers and binge gamers.
Game balancing is one thing, but I can say that "tweaking" complex systems isn't an easy thing to do. Using WoW as an example, when the devs "tweak" too often, players become frustrated because the stability of the game feels in flux. Are they going to be overpowered one patch, the next underpowered? Will they have to constantly spend resources changing gear and specs around? When the devs don't tweak enough, players become frustrated at the seeming lack of care the devs have for the game. "My class has been the worst for this long, and you never buff us!" And so on.

I wish that Blizzard was more.....thoughtful...when it came to game balancing but as someone who has played MMO's for a long time, they're also the only company that has really ever come close to relative stability in game design, imo.

With content, again there's a few issues. For one, it's a resource issue. You can't just throw more money at it and expect content to rain from the sky. On the other hand even if you could, the reality is that unless you make it very hard the majority of the playerbase will chew through it in less than a month. Even when it is hard, the "elites" plow through it fast enough to give the rest of the playerbase the impression that there isn't enough content. "Uber guild X beat the new boss in three weeks, where's the new content devs!?" Never mind that most players are casual and barely get through content by the time the next patch is ready.

You are correct, that online games are built like carrots on a stick. This is only a problem when players look at such games as "investments" and "work" instead of paying a monthly fee to goof off and have fun.

One of the hardest things I've done in regards to gaming was to quit Everquest. All those years of character building were hard to let go of. Once I did, I realized that the only thing I'll ever get to keep from these games is the memories I make....so they may as well be good ones. In short, when it stops being fun, it's no longer "play", and it's no longer worth spending money on.

WoW's biggest problem is simply that it is old, and it is showing it. Newer games sport better features, better character customization/art/design, more intuitive gameplay, etc. WoW is now a relic of the days when it was a more polished version of Everquest. The genre as a whole is stale, but a big reason for that is technology.

What players want from a MMO: a persistent world that feels alive, where your actions have consequences and make a difference in the world and your experience in it. The sky's the limit, and not a limited sandbox with virtual boundaries of cans and cant's.

What we have in MMO's now: a glorified numbers based progression system with superficial events/choices that don't really affect the world at all. Your "hero" is just as heroic as all the other players, which would be fine if it didn't feel so homogenous and "mathy" all the time.
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Old 2011-08-08, 05:53   Link #377
Mr Hat and Clogs
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I found it harder at the time to switch from EQ to WoW for the same reason you mentioned. But I played WoW for 6 years and only recently stopped playing. I just didn't really have the level of interest I used to, I had sort of been aware of it for a while I guess but I just kept raiding and so on because I liked the players. Although at the beginning of Cata we lost about half a dozen or so people to real life stuff which just made my lack of interest even more evident. So when the guild called for a raiding break for two weeks, I just stayed away and haven't gone back for 3 months, my sub runs out in November too.

The numbers thing has irritated me for years. I didn't really feel it was all that important in EQ - or at least not as obvious. I guess I was 15 at the time so it didn't really ring all that highly too me -even if I was a consistently high performer, as far as Bards went (5 song twisting hoo). Anyway, I kind of wish that the numbers were hidden from players or something to force the focus away from spreadsheets and the like and back into actual game play and story and taking items because they look awesome or are unique. It was a long time ago now but EQ did seem to have that.. soo many flavor items (Shawl of the Neriad, etc).

Fairly spot on with the balancing act that devs have to play too. They don't get enough credit at times, people only ever focus on the negatives.

I guess EVE is probably close to what you mention as a sandbox, but it is a numbers game. Heh economic sandbox.

Will say one thing for WoW, if you think it is a positive thing or not.. well.. that's up to you. It has "revolutionised" and pretty much invigorated an entire industry which has led us to what we have today in the form of SWTOR, and others. If we didn't have WoW I doubt there would be even half the MMO's there are today.
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Old 2011-08-08, 05:58   Link #378
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
I found it harder at the time to switch from EQ to WoW for the same reason you mentioned. But I played WoW for 6 years and only recently stopped playing. I just didn't really have the level of interest I used to, I had sort of been aware of it for a while I guess but I just kept raiding and so on because I liked the players.
Ah you finally stopped, always liked your BWM group, btw I'm dying to tell someone from Proudmoore, but I was that lovable forum troll Hecklor lol. I think some people on Horde guessed it because I remember Xeno randomly logging onto alliance and asking if I knew who he was lol. Was something to do while waiting for those atrocious BG queues... btw you were that priest Selene/Selina weren't you?
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Old 2011-08-08, 06:17   Link #379
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Selina yeah...

Hecklor... level 6 orc right? Or was that someone else... You went on about PVP yeah. Who was your main again? I'm sure you told me before. I seem to remember thinking you might have been in Ruined or Risen. Biggest forum troll I remember was Enigmanova.

link is the only reference I can find to you that still exists, sadly your posts are gone... but peoples still referenced and quoted you heh.
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Old 2011-08-08, 07:02   Link #380
Westlo
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I was Cagalli from Concept, and a lot of people thought I was in Ruined (elitist douches with guild enforced forum bans lol) or from Blackrock. Funniest part was when they thought I was that guy from Blackrock (some warlock beginning with I) because I used his pic of his group beating that RP server to make fun of them lol. I remember when my arena team (Norako, Elendril etc) and friends run into him in WSG and were like "Kill hecklor!!" lol.

I'm pretty sure the old school Horde pvp players knew, they knew I was pissed at me and Elendrils Concept WSG groups getting cockblocked by that new batch of Horde PVPers. And hecklor was always giving props to them, shitting on the new guys and mentioning how they called Concept gear scrubs and some of the guys in that were in the best ranked arena team on the server. (and we were pretty scrubby too lol).

Still think Elendrils the best mage I played with, I remember he smashed me and Houndus for an hour straight in duels when he had a pve fire raid spec on and we were both using the top frost pvp spec. And than a year later Houndus becomes one of the best mages in the battlegroup... that guy was crazy, I remember he and 2 friends went to a different battle group, convinced them they were from a top European raiding guild here to show them how to pvp and than easily took the Merciless Glad ranking for 3v3. Quality play and trolling lol.
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