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View Poll Results: Steins;Gate - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 40 47.06%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 30.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.94%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 9.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-08-11, 14:12   Link #141
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Anybody with basic human decency. Moeka's a victim herself.
Also, frankly, Moeka looked so far gone that it's not like lynching her would've hurt her more than taking away the phone. Okabe's assault is pretty much the most aggressive thing he could've done amongst the things he had the balls to do.
How is Okabe supposed to know that -before- she explains about her situation with FB?
Can you expect him to say "oh wait, she is a victim, "maybe" I shouldn't punch her"?
Again, even if Moeka was distressed due to FB lack of response, that has nothing to do with Okabe, since he needs that phone ASAP in order to avoid a tragedy. What's more is that it would indirectly save Moeka as well.
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lol, it is a 'little use of force'. Much less energy than trying to wrestle it out of her. The way I used the word 'vicious' there was in the intent, not the degree of the actions.
Playing with the semantic? The use of force whatsoever doesn't dictacte how vicious/violent an act can be. If I were to use your logic, the use of a gun would use "little force" (squeezing the trigger), yet it would be by far more harmful for obvious reason. Again, a punch here is the least violent thing he could do against a very frantic Moeka.
And honestly, a punch like this being more vicious than strangulation is really baffling: strangulation would not only imply you are dealing with the person's very life, but you are also facing their struggle and desperate attempt to live (by breathing). How on earth that example is more eligible than that punch?
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As humans, we can always express empathy. Without empathy, there's no point in even being alive. It's not like humans are actually any good for the ecosystem or the planet or the universe or whatever. You'd have to be naive or delusional to believe that black and white moralities like a "Hero" (lol) vs. a "Demon King" () can actually be applied to conflicts in reality.
I used a cliche analogy, there is hardly a stark shade of black and white in human argument and so forth. Your point is? It has nothing to do with what i've exposed: people have -no duty- to be empathic towards their peers. Human nature aside, people are not bound to any obligation to that. It doesn't mean people can't do that, but expecting people to feel empathic towards the person they hate or their sworn enemy is really too much, hence the analogy i've brought.
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Btw, I never said Okabe was 'evil'. Just impulsive, emotionally driven, and possibly a little stupid (but only if you deny the first two :P).
It is hard not to make such conclusion when you use terms such like "vicious", "wanted Moeka to experience the pain and frustration of having her phone taken away from her" and so forth. Even so, I used ", which was obviously implying the term isn't exactly the most accurate paraphrase. If you prefer, putting Okabe in such negative light might be on spot then.

I guess I'm done, otherwise it might turn into another Madoka Magica "wish" discussion all over again.
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Old 2011-08-11, 14:23   Link #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Anybody with basic human decency. Moeka's a victim herself.
Also, frankly, Moeka looked so far gone that it's not like lynching her would've hurt her more than taking away the phone. Okabe's assault is pretty much the most aggressive thing he could've done amongst the things he actually had the balls to.



lol, it is a 'little use of force'. Much less energy than trying to wrestle it out of her. The way I used the word 'vicious' there was in the intent, not the degree of the actions.
What? Okabe is NOT a trained assassin. It is not easy to just knock someone out-- this isn't Austin Powers where you can pinch someone in the neck and they faint. And no, just reading about it is not gonna turn Okabe into some kind of hitman.

Doing any of these might KILL her. Cutting off oxygen to the brain is not ever something you want to do unless you want to kill someone. This is NOT a viable alternative. Anything that can knock her unconscious has a chance of doing massive, long term damage to someone.

I think we can agree that hurting someone badly is still not as bad as getting them killed. Killing her is infinitely worse.

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As humans, we can always express empathy. Without empathy, there's no point in even being alive. It's not like humans are actually any good for the ecosystem or the planet or the universe or whatever. You'd have to be naive or delusional to believe that black and white moralities like a "Hero" (lol) vs. a "Demon King" () can actually be applied to conflicts in reality.

Btw, I never said Okabe was 'evil'. Just impulsive, emotionally driven, and possibly a little stupid (but only if you deny the first two :P).
Except people in these situations don't have time to empathize with everyone we come across. It's a balancing act when you have the life of friends and probably yourself on the line.

She herself said she'd kill if ordered. And this is right now. Nobody has time for people like that.

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I don't disagree with this. The main point is, with regards to people's reactions to this episode, that Okabe's actions are ones that are unfortunate rather than ones that are admirable.
Perhaps they can accept that they can root for such a character given the context. And perhaps they think they would have done even worse. But hey.
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Old 2011-08-11, 14:38   Link #143
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I don't even consider Moeka a victim. Anyone so easily manipulated to treasure someones texts whom she never met as if they were the holy grail...Really doesn't deserve my empathy, or Okabes for that matter. I applaud Okabe for doing to Moeka what I wanted done ever since she ruthlessly murdered Mayuri.
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Old 2011-08-11, 14:47   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
What? Okabe is NOT a trained assassin. It is not easy to just knock someone out-- this isn't Austin Powers where you can pinch someone in the neck and they faint. And no, just reading about it is not gonna turn Okabe into some kind of hitman.

Doing any of these might KILL her. Cutting off oxygen to the brain is not ever something you want to do unless you want to kill someone. This is NOT a viable alternative. Anything that can knock her unconscious has a chance of doing massive, long term damage to someone.

I think we can agree that hurting someone badly is still not as bad as getting them killed. Killing her is infinitely worse.
That's the thing. Okarin is human, not a mind-reading robot who can instantly and completely deduce Moeka's state of mind and from then determine the most cold/efficient method to take her phone. What Okarin did was natural and in-character. Shit, I'd be more worried about what a monster he's become if the first thing he does upon finding Moeka is to go home to get his freaking tranquilizer.
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Old 2011-08-11, 14:54   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I applaud Okabe for doing to Moeka what I wanted done ever since she ruthlessly murdered Mayuri.
But Mayuri is still alive, and if this succeeds, she'll still be alive and, in fact, never have died in the first place. Some of her deaths weren't even caused by Moeka - if anything is to blame, it appears to be the universe itself. So what does this act of revenge leave us with? A broken person curled up on the floor, alone. Was the catharsis worth it?
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Old 2011-08-11, 14:59   Link #146
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She still killed her, she is the reason the chain of Mayuris deaths even started in the first place. Now that she's been killed in one worldline (by Moeka) she is fated to be killed in all of the others. And regardless, it does not change the fact Mayuri would still be dead if not for Okabe's ability to time travel. Moeka deserved that punch in the face, no doubt about it.
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:00   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
But Mayuri is still alive, and if this succeeds, she'll still be alive and, in fact, never have died in the first place. Some of her deaths weren't even caused by Moeka - if anything is to blame, it appears to be the universe itself. So what does this act of revenge leave us with? A broken person curled up on the floor, alone. Was the catharsis worth it?
By this logic, if we save Mayuri, stuff is reset, then nothing matters and this action doesn't matter either (I'm sure we can do it with more dmail backtracking), Oh well.

Edit: Also she would have killed herself most likely anyways. This might actually save her life with these realizations.
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:27   Link #148
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Sure there are. It's just that most of them, like Triple_R brought up, might require some sort of specialized equipment and/or knowledge.
And you expect him to have that?

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If Okabe really only cared about the phone, he would have thought up some safer way (for himself) to go about getting it. I've brought that point up as well before. The reason he chose the path he did was clearly due to impulsiveness and emotionality.
Or maybe he just wanted the phone as quickly as possible and wanted to get out of there? I don't deny he did that out of impulsiveness. I'm saying that impulsiveness proves he only cared about the phone. It's the idea that he did that out of vindictiveness that I deny.
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:28   Link #149
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I don't even consider Moeka a victim. Anyone so easily manipulated to treasure someones texts whom she never met as if they were the holy grail...Really doesn't deserve my empathy, or Okabes for that matter. I applaud Okabe for doing to Moeka what I wanted done ever since she ruthlessly murdered Mayuri.
I agree up to a point with this sentiment. I believe she is a victim because FB manipulated an emotionally unstable person who was at the lowest point in their life, and made them feel that they had worth and purpose. However, she immediately stopped being a victim when she was willing to take someone else's life. It's not even that I think she's personally responsible either. Moeka has become an unthinking tool for this organization or person; the later is wholly responsible. But I wouldn't feel sorry for Moeka by thinking "Oh, how sad. Moeka killed an innocent person because she was used. Poor thing couldn't help it".
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:32   Link #150
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I don't think we have enough information on her past and how FB manipulated her to know for sure if she's a victim or not. I'm willing to believe she's a victim, even if she was willing to kill someone, but I still think it was neccessary for Okabe to do what he did, especially forcing her to confront the fact that FB had abandoned her and that she would've committed suicide. He's essentially saved Moeka's life (assuming she doesn't commit suicide that is)
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:43   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And honestly, a punch like this being more vicious than strangulation is really baffling: strangulation would not only imply you are dealing with the person's very life, but you are also facing their struggle and desperate attempt to live (by breathing). How on earth that example is more eligible than that punch?
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Doing any of these might KILL her. Cutting off oxygen to the brain is not ever something you want to do unless you want to kill someone. This is NOT a viable alternative. Anything that can knock her unconscious has a chance of doing massive, long term damage to someone.

I think we can agree that hurting someone badly is still not as bad as getting them killed. Killing her is infinitely worse.
In Judo, you strangle people with their clothes. A couple seconds and they're out. No permanent damage. If that's too much for you, you guys still haven't considered the other possibilities like simply tying Moeka up.

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I used a cliche analogy, there is hardly a stark shade of black and white in human argument and so forth. Your point is? It has nothing to do with what i've exposed: people have -no duty- to be empathic towards their peers. Human nature aside, people are not bound to any obligation to that. It doesn't mean people can't do that, but expecting people to feel empathic towards the person they hate or their sworn enemy is really too much, hence the analogy i've brought.

It is hard not to make such conclusion when you use terms such like "vicious", "wanted Moeka to experience the pain and frustration of having her phone taken away from her" and so forth. Even so, I used ", which was obviously implying the term isn't exactly the most accurate paraphrase. If you prefer, putting Okabe in such negative light might be on spot then.

I guess I'm done, otherwise it might turn into another Madoka Magica "wish" discussion all over again.
I consider it a moral duty of humans to feel empathy. I also believe that it is more or less possible for all people to learn to do so. I think the world would probably be a better place if that actually happened (i.e. all people were forced to learn to exercise empathy).

Incidentally, you're correct in saying I see Okabe in a negative light. Is it really so surprising that actions like he took in this episode could cause someone to do so?

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Except people in these situations don't have time to empathize with everyone we come across. It's a balancing act when you have the life of friends and probably yourself on the line.

She herself said she'd kill if ordered. And this is right now. Nobody has time for people like that.
It doesn't take time to exercise empathy. It can be more or less a natural response as you observe/interact with people and form a hypothesis for the reasons behind their behaviour and actions.

I wonder how things might've worked out had Okabe simply hefted Moeka over his shoulder and carried her back to the lab/home base. He evidently didn't think she was dangerous enough to have need to been put out while he looked through her phone right in front of her. Is she dangerous? A killer? Or not? One or the other, please.
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Old 2011-08-11, 15:47   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
In Judo, you strangle people with their clothes. A couple seconds and they're out. No permanent damage. If that's too much for you, you guys still haven't considered the other possibilities like simply tying Moeka up.
And does Okabe know Judo? These techniques aren't something you can read about and then apply within a day. They take a lot of practice and a lot of guidance from instructors. And don't you think she would've resisted? What you're suggesting is even worse than what Okabe did. And fyi, I've been put on a blood choke once before. It's not a nice experience and I definitely wouldn't say that it's better than being punched in the face. Not that Okabe would know that anyway or have to know that.

And I fail to see how tying Moeka up would've been easier much less better for her.

And the idea of him carrying her...why would he do that? He's after the phone first and foremost. He's not interested in helping Moeka because that would be pointless if he plans to change everything again by reversing the D-mail.
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Old 2011-08-11, 16:00   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I consider it a moral duty of humans to feel empathy. I also believe that it is more or less possible for all people to learn to do so. I think the world would probably be a better place if that actually happened (i.e. all people were forced to learn to exercise empathy).

Incidentally, you're correct in saying I see Okabe in a negative light. Is it really so surprising that actions like he took in this episode could cause someone to do so?
Forcing others to learn or do something in a certain way never worked out well for anyone. People mustn't be forced to experience something or forced into a certain way of life, but must be taught to embrace it, and to embrace learning it.

As far as Okabe goes, I fail to see how you can view him with such negativity. He's seen the girl who'se as good as a sister to him die countless times in front of him in situations who couldn't do anything to change or prevent, and a huge number of those instances were thanks to Moeka. When you view Okabe as the one who acts purely out of hatred and emotion, why don't you stop and consider that Okabe is also a victim here? He's seen someone important to him die countless times, yet you're painting Moeka as the only victim of circumstance. Moeka is the one who, regardless of the reason, killed and would kill someone simply because she was told to. Why don't you tell me why she doesn't have to be "forced to learn" empathy when she clearly lacks that, her only focus her obsession with FB and taking order from that person?

Also, Okabe displayed empathy a sizable number of times prior to this episode: he embraced Mayuri when he felt she was about to be taken away in front of her grandmother's grave. He's travelled back in time a million times to try and save her. Also, he's defended both Ruka and Feyris from bullies and would-be rapists respectively, getting his ass kicked for the girl in the latter of those cases. He even APOLOGIZED to Moeka for hitting her despite the fact that, as you say, he acted out of pure hatred. Pray tell, where is Okabe's lack of empathy?

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It doesn't take time to exercise empathy. It can be more or less a natural response as you observe/interact with people and form a hypothesis for the reasons behind their behaviour and actions.
Let me reitarate that under the circumstances he was in, Okabe could not exercise empathy. He simply wasn't given the chance. He had tried to talk to her, to make her snap out of it with words but it was clear that he could not. This is the person he's seen kill his "sister" numerous times. Had he left her be, he never would've reached out to her, and most important of all, he never would've managed to get the D-mail sent and discover the only way to get her to talk or do something was through FB, and Okabe never would've gotten a hint of who that person is or how to get to him. If he hadn't acted as he did, Moeka would've been as closed up as she was when we first saw her in this ep. Moeka was in a state were reason just couldn't register.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I wonder how things might've worked out had Okabe simply hefted Moeka over his shoulder and carried her back to the lab/home base. He evidently didn't think she was dangerous enough to have need to been put out while he looked through her phone right in front of her. Is she dangerous? A killer? Or not? One or the other, please.
I doubt very much Okabe would've been able to heft her up. She would've resisted, just as she had when Okabe tried speaking to her. She may not have been a killer during that timeline, but Moeka, no matter which timeline, would've been capable of killing if FB had simply asked her to. To me, whether or not she killed, that makes her a killer and dangerous. However, that's beside the point.
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Old 2011-08-11, 16:04   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
In Judo, you strangle people with their clothes. A couple seconds and they're out. No permanent damage. If that's too much for you, you guys still haven't considered the other possibilities like simply tying Moeka up.
lol, now you expect him to learn martial arts. You do realize it takes years of training to do something like that AND you still have to be careful and you fail to realize that tying her up requires even more physical violence to restrain her. Someone forcefully restraining you and tying you up results in a lot of pain, and being tied up is also painful. Because she is fighting back, it's not unreasonable for her arm to accidentally get broken or something. And you finally came up with tying her up just now!

He is not Batman. You cannot forsee all these things given the time to prepare.

I don't say he is a saint or he couldn't have done better. But what you are doing here is placing unreasonable expectations.



And even from an observer's point of view, your first two thoughts, strangulation and a knockout blow TO THE HEAD, were going to either kill Moeka, give her a concussion, or brain damage if botched. Or at the least do more damage than a punch. The fact that you even considered these as possibilities is probably the greatest defense of Okabe's actions.

This doesn't mean the possibilities aren't there. But these expectations of someone under pressure is unreasonable.

If anyone is praising Okabe for anything. It's that he didn't do worse, because I am almost positive that a lot of people around here would get Moeka killed.


Quote:
I consider it a moral duty of humans to feel empathy. I also believe that it is more or less possible for all people to learn to do so. I think the world would probably be a better place if that actually happened (i.e. all people were forced to learn to exercise empathy).

Incidentally, you're correct in saying I see Okabe in a negative light. Is it really so surprising that actions like he took in this episode could cause someone to do so?
I find it surprising because you are holding him to such unreasonable expectations.

Quote:
It doesn't take time to exercise empathy. It can be more or less a natural response as you observe/interact with people and form a hypothesis for the reasons behind their behaviour and actions.

I wonder how things might've worked out had Okabe simply hefted Moeka over his shoulder and carried her back to the lab/home base. He evidently didn't think she was dangerous enough to have need to been put out while he looked through her phone right in front of her. Is she dangerous? A killer? Or not? One or the other, please.
You don't know any of that. What if she decides to take a knife and stab him? Anyone can do that. If someone forcefully entered the room and pinned me down, I would think about that.

Anyhow, try taking this into context into a split second. You can't possibly expect anyone to do that, especially not someone who's already mentally unstable.

Anyhow, this reminds me of observers in games with limited information such as poker or any game with a "fog of war". It's really easy when you see everything, not as much when you don't.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:08   Link #155
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And does Okabe know Judo? These techniques aren't something you can read about and then apply within a day. They take a lot of practice and a lot of guidance from instructors. And don't you think she would've resisted? What you're suggesting is even worse than what Okabe did. And fyi, I've been put on a blood choke once before. It's not a nice experience and I definitely wouldn't say that it's better than being punched in the face. Not that Okabe would know that anyway or have to know that.
A blood choke would in fact have been safer than Okabe's full-out punch. And frankly it's not that complicated. As I said, it's the struggle over having the phone taken away from her that is most distressing thing for Moeka herself, and the most inefficient and dangerous thing for Okabe.

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As far as Okabe goes, I fail to see how you can view him with such negativity. He's seen the girl who'se as good as a sister to him die countless times in front of him in situations who couldn't do anything to change or prevent, and a huge number of those instances were thanks to Moeka. When you view Okabe as the one who acts purely out of hatred and emotion, why don't you stop and consider that Okabe is also a victim here? He's seen someone important to him die countless times, yet you're painting Moeka as the only victim of circumstance. Moeka is the one who, regardless of the reason, killed and would kill someone simply because she was told to. Why don't you tell me why she doesn't have to be "forced to learn" empathy when she clearly lacks that, her only focus her obsession with FB and taking order from that person?

Also, Okabe displayed empathy a sizable number of times prior to this episode: he embraced Mayuri when he felt she was about to be taken away in front of her grandmother's grave. He's travelled back in time a million times to try and save her. Also, he's defended both Ruka and Feyris from bullies and would-be rapists respectively, getting his ass kicked for the girl in the latter of those cases. He even APOLOGIZED to Moeka for hitting her despite the fact that, as you say, he acted out of pure hatred. Pray tell, where is Okabe's lack of empathy?
The best way for a person to learn empathy is probably to experience receiving it themself. The fact that Okabe is the one who demonstrates the most empathy is probably the reason why he's the hero/main char in the first place. As such, Okabe's failure to demonstrate empathy for Moeka until after he's beaten and emotionally wrecked her is pretty much his failure as a hero. Without that, Okabe is pretty much a generic chump acting recklessly on his selfish emotions.

Okabe himself receives plenty of support from say, for example, Kurisu. Moeka is completely alone. Whoever is more the 'victim' here it is clear that Okabe has more of himself to give out to others.

In the end, I'm hardly 'praising' or saying Moeka is admirable here either. So if you want to say that both of them are simply equally misfortunate, and that's all either of them are: victims, then go right ahead, I won't argue. Just don't pick one of them over the other.

Quote:
Let me reitarate that under the circumstances he was in, Okabe could not exercise empathy. He simply wasn't given the chance. He had tried to talk to her, to make her snap out of it with words but it was clear that he could not. This is the person he's seen kill his "sister" numerous times. Had he left her be, he never would've reached out to her, and most important of all, he never would've managed to get the D-mail sent and discover the only way to get her to talk or do something was through FB, and Okabe never would've gotten a hint of who that person is or how to get to him. If he hadn't acted as he did, Moeka would've been as closed up as she was when we first saw her in this ep. Moeka was in a state were reason just couldn't register.
I don't believe for any sentient human there is such a thing as 'unable to exercise empathy'. It's as simple as not giving in to hate, as understanding that the other party is just another human just like you. The important thing was recognizing "Is she a threat? Or is she not?" and treating her with the due respect accordingly. Okabe failed to either neutralize her as a capable enemy or reach out to her as someone who could be saved. His use of force, and punching her, was an entirely pointless, unnecessary action. It was an impulsive, emotional decision and an expression of his weaker qualities as a human being.

Quote:
I doubt very much Okabe would've been able to heft her up. She would've resisted, just as she had when Okabe tried speaking to her. She may not have been a killer during that timeline, but Moeka, no matter which timeline, would've been capable of killing if FB had simply asked her to. To me, whether or not she killed, that makes her a killer and dangerous. However, that's beside the point.
lol, that was pretty much a throwaway joke. A real man would've been able to do it :P. Although, I don't remember that Moeka resisted just when Okabe spoke to her with words. The point I am raising with this question is that if Moeka is willing to kill because of FBs instructions, then she should almost certainly be expected to also be willing to kill to get her cellphone back. Okabe's action of directly engaging and provoking her was very potentially dangerous. If Okabe actually perceived Moeka as a genuine enemy for whom what he was dishing out was necessary to fight back, then he would have come up with a much better plan to get the phone away without danger to himself in the first place.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:15   Link #156
Sheba
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Naval Base in the rectum of Pacific Ocean
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
*snips*
This debacle might have NEVER been dragged on for so long if you did NOT bring it up in the first place. Your words basically implied that the whole board is populated with male chauvinists who are no better, if not worse, than the Anonymii. Where have you seen the "HELL YES!!! HE PUNCHED HER!!!!" kind of posts? And seriously, don't you think we have our eyes on the more important issues, which are "What is in the real D-mail? Where is the godamn IBN? Who the hell is FB?" The punch did not do much for me, I WANTED to know the godamn message that Okabe have to undo. So, no, I didn't care about Oh Japan is sexually backward that it is okay to punch girls, I only wanted to know where do the story go next.

tl;dr: I did not care, I don't care, I WILL NOT care because all that matters to me is the story and to see how far Okabe will go to reach his happy/bittersweet end. But if you feel like hijacking the topic to male chauvinism because you think it is of vital importance for the future of society, I will start caring, in a very bad way.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:27   Link #157
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
This debacle might have NEVER been dragged on for so long if you did NOT bring up in the first place. Your words basically implied that the whole board is populated with male chauvinists who are no better, if not worse, than the Anonymii. Where have you seen the "HELL YES!!! HE PUNCHED HER!!!!" kind of posts? And seriously, don't you think we have our eyes on the more important issues, which are "What is in the real D-mail? Where is the godamn IBN? Who the hell is FB?" The punch did not do much for me, I WANTED to know the godamn message that Okabe have to undo. So, no, I didn't care about Oh Japan is sexually backward that it is okay to punch girls, I only wanted to know where do the story go next.

tl;dr: I did not care, I don't care, I WILL NOT care because all that matters to me is the story and to see how far Okabe will go to reach his happy/bittersweet end. But if you feel hijacking the topic to male chauvinism because you think it is of vital importance for the future of society, I will start caring, in a very bad way.
lol, don't get so worked up over it dude. People kept on responding over my first post and I even got a couple neg reps, so basically I just felt like justifying my own position. If you want to move the discussion towards more constructive things, post your own thoughts about them and I'll be glad to stop talking.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:29   Link #158
Reckoner
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
A blood choke would in fact have been safer than Okabe's full-out punch. And frankly it's not that complicated. As I said, it's the struggle over having the phone taken away from her that is most distressing thing for Moeka herself, and the most inefficient and dangerous thing for Okabe.
A blood choke by a novice without special training would be less dangerous? You cannot be serious.

Again, why does it matter what is distressing to Moeka? If you aren't willing to hold her accountable for her actions in other timelines then I can turn the argument around on you and say this. What Okabe does to her does not matter because in the end he is going to change it into a time line where their little skirmish didn't happen in the first place!
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:36   Link #159
Midonin
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I did not care, I don't care, I WILL NOT care
And yet you're going out of your way to respond to my somewhat inconclusive but earnest attempt to explain to the rest of the board why I felt the way I did. An attempt that only came about after a day or so of looking up articles related to all the societal implications and trying to figure out what, specifically about it that might have angered so many people. I'm trying to be reasonable, and I'm fully aware and willing to apologize for starting this tangent. On the other hand, why should I apologize for starting a debate? Debate, under the right conditions, can be healthy.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:43   Link #160
Archon_Wing
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Being totally ebillll
Age: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
A blood choke would in fact have been safer than Okabe's full-out punch. And frankly it's not that complicated. As I said, it's the struggle over having the phone taken away from her that is most distressing thing for Moeka herself, and the most inefficient and dangerous thing for Okabe.
I umm... don't know what to say.

Either you are a master martial artist, in which case, you should know that amateurs should not casually do these to people except in case of extreme emergency and tons of practice or you have no idea of these things at all, and are trivializing the years of training that soldiers, police officers, and martial artists need to properly restrain someone.

It does not matter if you are stronger and more agile to someone if they adequately resist. Beating the shit out of them is easy, but restraining them when they are resisting without severely hurting them is not as easy as you put up to be.

In any case, I am very glad Okabe didn't take advice from you otherwise we'd have to reset several times.


Quote:
The best way for a person to learn empathy is probably to experience receiving it themself. The fact that Okabe is the one who demonstrates the most empathy is probably the reason why he's the hero/main char in the first place. As such, Okabe's failure to demonstrate empathy for Moeka until after he's beaten and emotionally wrecked her is pretty much his failure as a hero. Without that, Okabe is pretty much a generic chump acting recklessly on his selfish emotions.
How exactly are you gonna display empathy in these cases. You don't have the time to draw up a profile in them when they themselves aren't rational.

And hey, results speak. Giving Moeka a chance to know the truth and perhaps not off herself. Hmm, I think stopping someone from killing themselves, that counts as empathy, does it?
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