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View Poll Results: Steins;Gate - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 40 47.06%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 30.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.94%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 9.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-08-12, 04:54   Link #181
risingstar3110
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This episode have been a significant improvement from the last. So i'm glad that S;G has became more like an anime at last (instead of light novel in animation).


Read briefly through this,it seems punching Moeka incident has became the controversial issues around here? On that issue,i think the consequences should be accounted for judging the actions, and hence i think Okarin's actions can be justified in this case. I means he didn't cause a permanent damage toward Moeka after all (except stealing her first kiss)
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Old 2011-08-12, 04:55   Link #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
This episode have been a significant improvement from the last. Read briefly through this,it seems punching Moeka incident has became the controversial issues around here?

On that issue,i think the consequences should be accounted for judging the actions, and hence i think Okarin's actions can be justified in this case. I means he didn't cause a permanent damage toward Moeka after all (except stealing her first kiss)
It evens out, he stole his own kiss too when he'd prolly rather have it from Kurisu perhaps
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Old 2011-08-12, 05:50   Link #183
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I'm still trying to work out who the hell FB is if they're even a person.
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Old 2011-08-12, 05:57   Link #184
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Originally Posted by Qikz View Post
I'm still trying to work out who the hell FB is if they're even a person.

Head there, for fun speculation.
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Old 2011-08-12, 07:27   Link #185
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How is he time leaping if this is before Kurisu made the time leap machine?
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Old 2011-08-12, 07:41   Link #186
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Originally Posted by Myname View Post
How is he time leaping if this is before Kurisu made the time leap machine?
The time leap machine sends data to a mobile phone, thus the receiving end doesn't need a time leap machine. The only restriction is that he can only leap 48hours backwards maximum using the machine, so the most he can leap back is 2pm 11th August as the machine is created on 2pm 13th August.
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Old 2011-08-12, 08:12   Link #187
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And how was Okabe still be able to time leap if Mayuri's death date was moved back a day every time they undid the messages? The one with Okabe's not stopping Suzuha, Rumiho and Ruka's are already 3 and the time of Mayuri's death should have been expedited 36 hours which means she died before the machine was created.....
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Old 2011-08-12, 08:17   Link #188
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Originally Posted by Jean Claymore View Post
And how was Okabe still be able to time leap if Mayuri's death date was moved back a day every time they undid the messages? The one with Okabe's not stopping Suzuha, Rumiho and Ruka's are already 3 and the time of Mayuri's death should have been expedited 36 hours which means she died before the machine was created.....
Only Mayuri's death is delayed, the time leap machine is always completed on 2pm 13th August. Mayuri's "first" death is at 8pm on the same day the time machine is created. Each time Okabe cancels a D-mail Mayuri's death gets delayed for 24 hours.
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Old 2011-08-12, 08:56   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
From my personal perspective, hate doesn't even make sense until you have acquired a reasonable understanding of motivation. Just because someone has done wrong to you, doesn't make them evil, because this world is to put it simply too small for all of us and we're already trampling over other lives as it is. So for me Mayuri's death is in itself a very poor reason to succumb to hate. The selfish response of simplistically saying "You hurt me or mine, that means you are my enemy and I don't give a damn about your circumstances" is to me by comparison the single most destructive way of approaching the universe.

Contrarily, I can actually somewhat understand Okabe's frustration at the very moment he witnessed Moeka's complete obsession with FB, and the way she was not even responding to anything else. It's not a "You killed Mayuri!" thing, but a "Do you even realize what you have done? You killed Mayuri for something miserable like this?" sort of feeling.

However, implicit in the act of "understanding, then hate" is that you already understand. And in this way, resisting the emotional descent into hate is always possible.

It's not really about whether Okabe has a 'right' or not; humans will always do what they do, regardless of its legitimacy. I am not judging him so much as a person than judging his actions in this single particular circumstance. I think it is always unfortunate when hate is chosen over acceptance (of reality, at least) because hate ultimately does not even do anything for the hateful person him/herself. I don't think it takes a saint not to hate others so much as simply an awareness of the burden that you yourself represent and a willingness to seek understanding.

In any case, foregoing hate itself does not deny resistance or the ability to take action when necessary. Self-sacrifice might be what I would refer to as sainthood. Self-restraint is, in my opinion, nothing all that extraordinary.


:P You could say intellectually I'm something of a Buddhist. But indeed, this is the standard to which I hold myself so I don't think it's too much to ask of a main character (Okabe might not be perfect, but in the end he is still acting out these generic good intentions of empathy/sympathy). Whatever the feelings of various members of the audience, for the nature of Steins;Gate as a work and the culture it came from the idea that Okabe could have lynched or brutalized Moeka to exact revenge on her was, to me, never even a remote possibility.
I have to admit, this was a very good response on your part.

I now completely see where you're coming from, and your position is reasonable at least.

For me, the key is that you're not judging Okabe as a person so much as you're judging his actions. Within that framework, I have little issue with your arguments.

I agree with you that Okabe was particularly disgusted with the fact that Moeka killed Mayuri "for something miserable like this", as you say. Okabe may have preferred it if Moeka was, say, motivated by strong political beliefs that happened to line up with SERN's, and hence she was loyal to them for something a bit more logical and concrete.

Honestly, I was surprised by Moeka this episode, because I myself was expecting her reasons for siding with SERN to be political in nature (since SERN's goals are, after all, establishing a worldwide authoritarian government). The fact that Moeka was motivated entirely by a basic need to feel needed and wanted was a very surprising character revelation to me. A good plot twist, in some ways.
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Old 2011-08-12, 09:08   Link #190
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. Okabe's and Moeka's fight in this chapter already stretched the bounds of plausibility. Why did Moeka never grab a knife? How could Moeka's neighbour actually misconstrue that clamour as a make-out session? Knocking Moeka out would've been far more believable, and it wasn't a requirement that it be perfect or gentle.
Really...did you see a knife in that episode? I didn't. And FYI, whether the old lady misconstrued their actions or purposely avoided it, I'm 100% more certain that it is more plausible than picking a random person off the street and expecting them to know when and how to do a submission properly.

I'm sure the general consensus is that a punch is more common than a martial arts submission, and if you're not against it being perfect or gentle, then what is your point?

Quote:
Okabe's actions might've been human nature, yes (that covers a very wide range FYI, Bruce Lee and Stephen Hawking included :P), but I find it a stretch to say that witnessing human nature is always great and 'enjoyable'. Sometimes human nature can be real ugly, and that's a sad thing; it's good to be aware, of course, but it hardly needs to be celebrated.
I never said human nature was always great and enjoyable. And in this case yes, people are celebrating his restraint from doing something worse. I'm not sure if you are just being naive or ignorant and lacking empathy to Okarin's state of mind, but not everyone can be a saint as you seem to proclaim yourself to be. And really...if you can't stand this punch in this episode, I don't know how you can watch any other type of cinema that involves even a touch of action. Bruce Lee and Batman must be near the top of your "must not be celebrated" list.

You expecting this person to have some type of martial arts training when he clearly hasn't shown an inkling of it in 19 episodes is irrational and unreasonable. Putting that into the story would have been called "jumping the shark" and would have ruined the story that you seem to have such high standards for.

BTW, here's some links on your 'blood choke'

http://en.allexperts.com/q/BDSM-2733/blood-chokes.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

Notice how they repeatedly stress proper technique and supervision for "relative safety".

And this from wiki
Quote:
Some departments consider it a choice when lethal force is justified.
Choking is considered lethal force, while a punch is not.
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Old 2011-08-12, 09:26   Link #191
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Originally Posted by PowerBarEX View Post
Really...did you see a knife in that episode? I didn't. And FYI, whether the old lady misconstrued their actions or purposely avoided it, I'm 100% more certain that it is more plausible than picking a random person off the street and expecting them to know when and how to do a submission properly.
I do seem to recall a still of a knife lying on the sink and wondering the entire rest of the scene whether it would see any use. I think it was just shown to heighten the tension of the viewer.
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Old 2011-08-12, 10:01   Link #192
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Was Moeka coherent enough to go for a knife? Her thought processes were probably along the lines of text FB on my phone>someone is trying to take my phone>hold on to my phone>get my phone back>break down this door preventing me from reaching my phone. I just assumed all her thoughts are on her phone, not how to effectively fight off Okabe and a kitchen knife is not going to cut through a door so it made sense that she never went for it.
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Old 2011-08-12, 10:28   Link #193
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Originally Posted by PowerBarEX View Post
Really...did you see a knife in that episode? I didn't. And FYI, whether the old lady misconstrued their actions or purposely avoided it, I'm 100% more certain that it is more plausible than picking a random person off the street and expecting them to know when and how to do a submission properly.

I'm sure the general consensus is that a punch is more common than a martial arts submission, and if you're not against it being perfect or gentle, then what is your point?
As someone else mentioned, the show purposely highlighted that there was a knife in the room. As for my point, I thought I'd already made it clear: I never said that all violence/force is terrible (or hell, the submission hold wouldn't even have been brought up if that was the case), only that violence/force driven by emotion/hatred is pointless and bad.

Quote:
I never said human nature was always great and enjoyable. And in this case yes, people are celebrating his restraint from doing something worse. I'm not sure if you are just being naive or ignorant and lacking empathy to Okarin's state of mind, but not everyone can be a saint as you seem to proclaim yourself to be. And really...if you can't stand this punch in this episode, I don't know how you can watch any other type of cinema that involves even a touch of action. Bruce Lee and Batman must be near the top of your "must not be celebrated" list.
So if the restraint that Okabe did show can be universally agreed upon as admirable, is it wrong to think it'd be better if Okabe had shown some more? I assure you, if I am ever watching/in a debate over other series which involve revenge-driven motives or storylines, I am right there criticizing the actions there too.

Quote:
You expecting this person to have some type of martial arts training when he clearly hasn't shown an inkling of it in 19 episodes is irrational and unreasonable. Putting that into the story would have been called "jumping the shark" and would have ruined the story that you seem to have such high standards for.
The specific method for knocking Moeka unconscious/incapacitating her does not even matter. It was simply an example of a non-emotionally driven use of force Okabe could have chosen instead.

Quote:
BTW, here's some links on your 'blood choke'

http://en.allexperts.com/q/BDSM-2733/blood-chokes.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

Notice how they repeatedly stress proper technique and supervision for "relative safety".

And this from wiki

Choking is considered lethal force, while a punch is not.
You obviously understand how to use google, so go use it some more. Obviously you can kill with a choke if it's held long enough, just like you can kill with a punch if you punch hard enough. However, it's commonly understood that a properly applied blood choke is incomparably safer than being knocked out by concussive blows. A punch to the head without 'proper technique and supervision' can be just as dangerous as an amateur attempt at a hold.
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Old 2011-08-12, 11:29   Link #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You obviously understand how to use google, so go use it some more. Obviously you can kill with a choke if it's held long enough, just like you can kill with a punch if you punch hard enough. However, it's commonly understood that a properly applied blood choke is incomparably safer than being knocked out by concussive blows. A punch to the head without 'proper technique and supervision' can be just as dangerous as an amateur attempt at a hold.
Why don't you use this google to quote something instead of ignoring the links to support your case? You have absolutely no sources and no anecdotes. I may not have knowledge, but I thought no oxygen to the brain would be a bad thing. But since I realize I don't have the knowledge, google is a wonderful tool.

Blood choking is safe... when the police use it. when...
Quote:
Some departments consider it a choice when lethal force is justified.
Huh. Lethal force huh? I didn't think punching was a lethal force. And police training is something people can pick up.

Give me a break. Either provide sources where it is proven that a layman can easily train to use this thing safely or stop. Otherwise you are just sprouting out nonsense with no proof and not even an anecdote. Aka ignorance.
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Old 2011-08-12, 11:37   Link #195
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In watching all of the following:

1) Pro boxing matches
2) UFC matches
3) Fights break out in pro hockey games (such fights being mostly grabs, pulls, and punches)

I find it very hard to believe that a lone punch has any plausible chance to be lethal. (I also was in a few minor scraps as a kid/teenager, but I don't think I ever took or delivered a punch straight to the face, in fairness).

Maybe once in a blue moon if there is a massive strength/durability difference between the person delivering the punch and the one receiving it, I can see it possibly killing a person. But Moeka clearly is not a total weakling relative to Okabe, or he would have simply taken the phone from her during their mutual pulling contest for it (the fact that Okabe wasn't able to do so means that Moeka must at least be close to Okabe in overall strength level).

The punch was a good, hard one yes. But can we please drop the pretense that it had any realistic chance of being lethal? That pretense is really pushing it a bit.
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Old 2011-08-12, 11:41   Link #196
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Triple_R. You are actually wrong! I have proof that a punch can be so lethal it could potentially destroy the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw

Of course, Okabe isn't that though.
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Old 2011-08-12, 11:48   Link #197
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Triple_R. You are actually wrong! I have proof that a punch can be so lethal it could potentially destroy the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw

Of course, Okabe isn't that though.
... Now I'm wondering if I'm evil enough to do a YouTube mash-up vid of Okabe punching Moeka to the audio and voices of the glorious Falcon Punch.

Hhmmm... who should be shouting "Captain Falcon!", I wonder? Kurisu, or Mayuri?
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Old 2011-08-12, 11:51   Link #198
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Yay! Back to on topic land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... Now I'm wondering if I'm evil enough to do a YouTube mash-up vid of Okabe punching Moeka to the audio and voices of the glorious Falcon Punch.

Hhmmm... who should be shouting "Captain Falcon!", I wonder? Kurisu, or Mayuri?
I'd say Kurisu, since she was helping out in the operation. Plus she's concerned at this moment.
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Old 2011-08-12, 15:05   Link #199
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Instead of talking about moral, why isn't anyone surprised about the fact that Moeka ignored TWO e-mails ??

Did she get them ? Did she think it was a trap ? Why the reading steiner didn't activate ??
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Old 2011-08-12, 15:36   Link #200
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Originally Posted by Alucard24 View Post
Instead of talking about moral, why isn't anyone surprised about the fact that Moeka ignored TWO e-mails ??

Did she get them ? Did she think it was a trap ? Why the reading steiner didn't activate ??
She didn't care. She was so stubborn to believe that FB would leave to her salvation that she just automatically thought the others were from enemies.

That is how you create a fanatic that has beliefs so entrenched that they ignore the possibility of anything else. She was already desperate to begin with so it was easy for her to be manipulated to trusting only this FB.

It kinda reminds me of people that I knew that had severe gambling problems. Even though common sense and logic says that they can't win by taking stupid risks they insist on it anyways because they are so desperate to win and ignore all rational arguments.

Desperation causes people to adopt very warped mindsets. Someone that's about to kill themselves is at the very bottom and very vulnerable.

It's ultimately why I think Moeka could not be saved without force. You can't negotiate with someone that isn't rational. You just have to take them away from the immediate dangers first. Because if they end up hurting others or killing themselves, then it's all over. That can't be allowed to happen.
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