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Old 2011-08-13, 19:22   Link #15761
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Europeans need to understand that Americans are staunch individualists for the most part and that only the heavily urbanized areas have a collectivist mindset.
Hey, we invented liberalism. In Europe I think we're approaching the model liberal democracy far faster then in the US. I think an individual in Europe has much greater freedom. Greater Freedom of movement, the US still maintains a border on Canada. There's greater freedom of religion and beliefs, we actually have atheist politicians, religion rarely comes into politics (except maybe italy), we allow people to marry as they like. We have a greater political spectrum in our parliaments then you do in your congress. In our parliaments you can find green parties, socialist parties, radical socialist parties, nationalist parties, quasi-fascistic parties, liberal parties. If it's an opinion, it probably gets representation. In America only 2 very similiar political beliefs get any representation at all.

I don't think Europe is any more collectivist then the United States. I think we're just as devoid of community spirit as anywhere in America. We're not drones controlled by government bureaucrats. In Eastern Europe you might get a collectivist mentality ("all must die to defend Mother Russia etc.") but Western Europe is pretty firmly liberal and capitalist, but tempered by some socialist institutions.

There are no 2 places in the world closer in ideals then the United States and Europe. We are all "westerners".

So if something is done one way in Europe, and it works well, the US should feel no compunction about copying it. Certainly we feel no regrets about copying succesful American ideas.

Of course there's always misunderstandings. Americans think Europeans are communist drones, and Europeans think Americans are stupid fat tourists. Both stereotypes are pretty wrong. Like all people, most Americans and Europeans are pretty similiar. I think Americans have a bit more can-do pep, but...

@M-14, is it a more elegant and universal design then the AK-47?
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Old 2011-08-13, 20:29   Link #15762
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/wo...itain.html?hpw

Seriously how is that a good thing that 1/6 people in the entire country live in public housing?
A good thing actually. Over here, close to three quarters live in public housing.

We call them HDB flats, after the government agency that built it.
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Old 2011-08-13, 20:48   Link #15763
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Hey, we invented liberalism. In Europe I think we're approaching the model liberal democracy far faster then in the US. I think an individual in Europe has much greater freedom. Greater Freedom of movement, the US still maintains a border on Canada. There's greater freedom of religion and beliefs, we actually have atheist politicians, religion rarely comes into politics (except maybe italy), we allow people to marry as they like. We have a greater political spectrum in our parliaments then you do in your congress. In our parliaments you can find green parties, socialist parties, radical socialist parties, nationalist parties, quasi-fascistic parties, liberal parties. If it's an opinion, it probably gets representation. In America only 2 very similiar political beliefs get any representation at all.
You did give us Ludwig VonMises, Adam Smith, John Locke, and Eugen Ritter von Böhm-Bawerk, so yes, Liberalism (in the Classical sense) certainly started in Europe and I thank you Europeans for that.

The problem is, communism/socialism also started there.

Quote:
I don't think Europe is any more collectivist then the United States. I think we're just as devoid of community spirit as anywhere in America. We're not drones controlled by government bureaucrats. In Eastern Europe you might get a collectivist mentality ("all must die to defend Mother Russia etc.") but Western Europe is pretty firmly liberal and capitalist, but tempered by some socialist institutions.
I don't think your societies are more or less collectivist, I was referring to the mindset of the people.

Quote:
There are no 2 places in the world closer in ideals then the United States and Europe. We are all "westerners".

So if something is done one way in Europe, and it works well, the US should feel no compunction about copying it. Certainly we feel no regrets about copying succesful American ideas.
I agree, so you Europeans need to start rolling back all your gun-control laws, pass castle doctrines, and actually encourage people to stop psychos like that idiot in Oslo and the rioters in England.
I'm not talking "bubba" style vigilantism, I'm talking government encouraged programs such as the US CMP, and volunteer police/militia units (under government control/coordination) to help in extreme circumstances such as the riots in England.

I should note that the CMP is a progressive organization created by Theodore Roosevelt under the Militia Act of 1903.

Quote:
Of course there's always misunderstandings. Americans think Europeans are communist drones, and Europeans think Americans are stupid fat tourists. Both stereotypes are pretty wrong. Like all people, most Americans and Europeans are pretty similiar. I think Americans have a bit more can-do pep, but...
Oh no, no.
We know you're not Marxists...you're Fabians.
And who are you kidding, we Americans live on Cheeseburgers, French Fries, Pizza, and ice cream...our national beverage is basically syrup mixed with water (soda pop)...we are fat tourists...only the stupid part is marginally incorrect.

Quote:
@M-14, is it a more elegant and universal design then the AK-47?
I'll let all of you be the judge of that.

The Modern M14 known as the SOCOM 16:

Spoiler for NICE BIG PICTURE OF IT.:


The Modern AK-74:

Spoiler for AK-74:
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Old 2011-08-13, 20:55   Link #15764
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which is better against zombies?
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Old 2011-08-13, 22:16   Link #15765
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
which is better against zombies?
Depends. Are you on a roof or in the middle of the road? One appears more suited to sniping and the other for mowing.
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Old 2011-08-13, 22:36   Link #15766
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
If what you say would actually happen... I don't know what I'd do. Run away to Canada, maybe. I don't just have myself to think of anymore. I have a partner who is riddled with neurological disorders and constant (but controlled by medication) pain, and I can't just throw my life away by picking up a rifle and going teabagger-hunting.
To (legaly) emigrate to Canada might not be as easy at it was before. The criteria are a bit harder now.
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Old 2011-08-14, 01:31   Link #15767
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wow... what a way for this Telegraph contributor to state the obvious
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Old 2011-08-14, 03:22   Link #15768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
wow... what a way for this Telegraph contributor to state the obvious
I'm going to take a quote from this article before getting to what I need to say about it:

Quote:
Perhaps it is our Viking blood, perhaps it is the monotonous misery of living in a country where nobody talks to each other and bad weather is a constant.
This is very true. Now, people do talk to each other, but in my experience at any rate, it is rare if it doesn't happen at all for people to converse about personal matters among friends. The reason for this is because people tend to become uncomfortable about it. The reason for that is beyond me but this is probably the primary reason why I haven't had a seriously good, close friend save three people ever since I got here. This bottling up of emotions tends to lead to people manifesting their anger in ugly ways, particularly people we've seen rioting (a.k.a. chavs).

However, the author of this article is painting humanity in too much of a negative light. Just because the moment a man supposedly gets shot in Tottenham as a consequence of police brutality and people start vandalizing the entire city doesn't mean the rest of humanity is just as rotten. Granted, these kinds of things do happen, but riots in Italy, US, France, as far as I recall, have never been spurred by unconfirmed information. It's true that people are dissatisfied and disillusioned, but it doesn't mean everyone else is the same way. What this man is doing is generalizing all peoples involved in the riots, but there are people suffering in similar ways who did not take part in the riots, and people who weren't neccessarily in a bad position in life also took place just because they could. I mean really, an Olympic ambassador's got a hell of a lot going for her but she still took part.

Also, considering this man is thinking all humans would loot, rape, or kill given the opportunity, he should again take a good hard look at what's been happening in Japan. PLENTY of opportunities for all three of those things, but none has been exploited. Either the Japanese are REALLY good at covering things up or they really are as genuinely altruistic as they appear, and I've got my money on the latter. That being said, this is just another article written for the sake of sensationalism whose purpose is, as always, gaining as big an audience as they can with bad news. After all, bad news is the biggest catch these days. When someone is angry, feed their anger, the love it.

On a side note, I don't agree on this man's take on national welfare and it not being a right everyone should benefit from. I've argued before healthcare is a basic human right, and it gives people the chance and motivation to do something. This author's blaming the fact that the government is too appeasing and the kids are taking it for granted. That might partly be true, but I've been on benefits for a month and I can tell you, it's not a pretty way of living either way. He's blaming the right people, but for the wrong reasons.
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Old 2011-08-14, 03:52   Link #15769
Mentar
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I agree, so you Europeans need to start rolling back all your gun-control laws, pass castle doctrines, and actually encourage people to stop psychos like that idiot in Oslo and the rioters in England.
Are you insane?

Norway has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world (0.6 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, in which is one of the reasons why they had difficulties reacting to the madman in time). Compare that to gun-toting America, which has 5 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, almost 9 times as much.

Sorry man, we're not planning to burn down the house just because we might be feeling cold. Mirroring the US cesspool where every nutcase can buy firearms at every corner is the last thing we'd want to do in Europe, trust me.
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Old 2011-08-14, 05:34   Link #15770
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You did give us Ludwig VonMises, Adam Smith, John Locke, and Eugen Ritter von Böhm-Bawerk, so yes, Liberalism (in the Classical sense) certainly started in Europe and I thank you Europeans for that.

The problem is, communism/socialism also started there.
Yes, do use that excuse. Just because someone (Marx) had some pretty interesting (but overall utopic and unattainable) ideas that went way out of whack (Stalin and Lenin) you're going to argue that we are somehow a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I agree, so you Europeans need to start rolling back all your gun-control laws, pass castle doctrines, and actually encourage people to stop psychos like that idiot in Oslo and the rioters in England.
I'm not talking "bubba" style vigilantism, I'm talking government encouraged programs such as the US CMP, and volunteer police/militia units (under government control/coordination) to help in extreme circumstances such as the riots in England.

I should note that the CMP is a progressive organization created by Theodore Roosevelt under the Militia Act of 1903.
UOU hold on a second cowboy! Just because we've hit some minor snags along the way with some of our people doing arguably extreme choices either for protest or just plain old criminality doesn't mean we should go ahead and switch to full on guns blazing mode.

Also, the USA has similar happenings as well like the shooting of congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords a few months back. You could argue that the US should pass gun legislation to prevent the general public from having weapons like it happens in most of Europe. I personally don't think that's right though.
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Old 2011-08-14, 06:02   Link #15771
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The problem is, communism/socialism also started there.
You often put socialism on the same level as communism?

US schools seriously brainwashed you.
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Old 2011-08-14, 06:17   Link #15772
Ithekro
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Actually that was our parents and grandparents. Modern textbooks really don't go into in all that much in terms of good or bad.
Most ideology against communism and socialism is driven by the Baby Boomers and their parents.
These were the people that lived and fought the Cold War, so their ideas are hard set by several decades of stand offs, incidents, espianoge, and "police actions" with the Soviets and their allies. While their ideology is not really taught at school, it is provided via the mass media of the age, entertainment, and parental ideology that is transfered to their children as they grow up.
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Old 2011-08-14, 13:05   Link #15773
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Are you insane?

Norway has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world (0.6 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, in which is one of the reasons why they had difficulties reacting to the madman in time). Compare that to gun-toting America, which has 5 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, almost 9 times as much.

Sorry man, we're not planning to burn down the house just because we might be feeling cold. Mirroring the US cesspool where every nutcase can buy firearms at every corner is the last thing we'd want to do in Europe, trust me.
The truth of the matter is very few of those murders are committed by legally-purchased guns. Most of it comes from the black market. You really think a would-be murderer is going to stop and obey gun control laws?

So don't let nutcases buy firearms. Simple as that. To be honest I don't think America uses gun control correctly. They ban a lot of silly and stupid things, making guns that "look" scary illegal, while not actually doing anything useful like keep shady folks from buying guns from Bubba's Pawn Shop.

I don't live or die by the Second Amendment here. I used to own guns, back when I lived in Oklahoma, and a gun even saved me from a bad situation once. Had I not had the gun, I probably would have gotten cut up or stabbed pretty bad. But there are things that are more important to me than being allowed to own guns. Still, it doesn't seem right that I have to choose between giving up/suspending my feelings on gun ownership vs. giving up/suspending my feelings on wanting legal gay marriage.

Meh.
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Old 2011-08-14, 14:52   Link #15774
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Are you insane?

Norway has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world (0.6 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, in which is one of the reasons why they had difficulties reacting to the madman in time). Compare that to gun-toting America, which has 5 murders per year in 100.000 inhabitants, almost 9 times as much.
We also have a far more integrated population than Norway does.
That clash of culture and race causes considerable violence with or without guns.
In fact, the most violent areas of the US are the ones with the most gun-control laws poverty and gangs.

Quote:
Sorry man, we're not planning to burn down the house just because we might be feeling cold. Mirroring the US cesspool where every nutcase can buy firearms at every corner is the last thing we'd want to do in Europe, trust me.
No, Europeans would rather let rioters rape, pillage, and murder for days on end rather than actually stand up and defend themselves.
Also, has there ever been a shooting of the magnitude in Oslo here in the US?
No.
Why?
Because unless it is in NYC, Mass, or some other place with strict gun-control laws, the perp would get killed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Yes, do use that excuse. Just because someone (Marx) had some pretty interesting (but overall utopic and unattainable) ideas that went way out of whack (Stalin and Lenin) you're going to argue that we are somehow a problem?
Marx and Engles (why does he always get left out) pointed out the problems with Mercantilism and Corporatism.
Back in the 1840s that was who comprised the Bourgeoise.
Today, the middle class are mostly Proletarians that have excelled and achieved.
The problem today is the aristocracy.
As H.G. Wells so accurately pointed out in Chapter 4 of his book The New World Order Marx was a dreamer who wanted to go back to the Feudal era.
Karl should have known that in the Feudal era the aristocracy was the problem, it was they who were oppressing the masses.
His wishing to return to that kind of a society just proves one thing about Marx.
In short, Marx was a retrogressive idiot.

Quote:
UOU hold on a second cowboy! Just because we've hit some minor snags along the way with some of our people doing arguably extreme choices either for protest or just plain old criminality doesn't mean we should go ahead and switch to full on guns blazing mode.
Why not?
Are you implying that you Europeans are to barbaric to handle guns?

Quote:
Also, the USA has similar happenings as well like the shooting of congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords a few months back. You could argue that the US should pass gun legislation to prevent the general public from having weapons like it happens in most of Europe. I personally don't think that's right though.
So?
China has the harshest gun laws in the world and they just had a mass shooting a few years ago.
You all need to lay off the Koolaid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
You often put socialism on the same level as communism?

US schools seriously brainwashed you.
No dear, the person who has had his/her mind scrubbed down with propaganda is the person who thinks that there is a functional difference between Scientific-Socialism (Marxism) and Fabian Socialism (European style Socialism).
They do have minor differences in theory, but in practice they are nearly identical
Communism is a farce, it is not achievable.
While socialism is what is put into practice it--as Benito Mussolini correctly observed--degenerates into despotism via corporatism.
In Marixst theory, government is supposed to "fade away."
In practice it becomes more totalitarian as it attempts to keep from collapsing due to the burden of the entitlement systems and the shrinking number of private businesses.
As government takes over more and more control of the market, the problem continues to grow until austerity measures have to be put into place.
That means doing away with entitlement programs, and causing civil unrest.
That in turn gives the government the moral imperitive to clamp down on society and implement a totalitarian system.
The above sequence is EXACTLY what the Nazis did to achieve power in the 1930s.
The Russian example is similar.
Lenin encountered total collapse of the Russian economy during the early 1920s which is why he had to implement his State-Capitalist system.
That in turn caused unrest among the die-hard communists, who Stalin liquidated after he took over and used the malcontents as an excuse to create his own totalitarian state.
Maybe if you'd actually do some research about socialism and Marxism you'd learn what those terms mean and how they have actually worked in real life rather than on paper.
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Old 2011-08-14, 14:52   Link #15775
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The truth of the matter is very few of those murders are committed by legally-purchased guns. Most of it comes from the black market. You really think a would-be murderer is going to stop and obey gun control laws?

So don't let nutcases buy firearms. Simple as that. To be honest I don't think America uses gun control correctly. They ban a lot of silly and stupid things, making guns that "look" scary illegal, while not actually doing anything useful like keep shady folks from buying guns from Bubba's Pawn Shop.

I don't live or die by the Second Amendment here. I used to own guns, back when I lived in Oklahoma, and a gun even saved me from a bad situation once. Had I not had the gun, I probably would have gotten cut up or stabbed pretty bad. But there are things that are more important to me than being allowed to own guns. Still, it doesn't seem right that I have to choose between giving up/suspending my feelings on gun ownership vs. giving up/suspending my feelings on wanting legal gay marriage.

Meh.
And one could wonder why the US has such a rich black market. But that doesn't even matter. Mentar's right: considering the homicide rates, the US is terribly placed to give Norway lessons.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:05   Link #15776
GundamFan0083
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Norway only has about 4.5 million people in it.
The State of Colorado has over 5 million people in it.

The crime rates of Norway and Colorado are comparable.

The Norway crime rate for 2009 is 3 murders per 100,000 people.
The Colorado crime rate for 2009 is 3.5 murders per 100,000 people.

Norway's gun laws are far stricter than Colorado's.
Proving that gun control has absolutely no effect on crime whatsoever.

Now, if we compare a state with a much higher population, like say California.
The murder rate for 2009 is 5.3 per 100,000, and California has far stricter gun-laws than does Colorado.

And Lousiana is the worst state at 11.0 murders per 100,000 people.
If we're going to compare stats, let's do it with some measure of comparability.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:16   Link #15777
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Norway only has about 4.5 million people in it.
The State of Colorado has over 5 million people in it.

The crime rates of Norway and Colorado are comparable.

The Norway crime rate for 2009 is 3 murders per 100,000 people.
The Colorado crime rate for 2009 is 3.5 murders per 100,000 people.

Norway's gun laws are far stricter than Colorado's.
Proving that gun control has absolutely no effect on crime whatsoever.

Now, if we compare a state with a much higher population, like say California.
The murder rate for 2009 is 5.3 per 100,000, and California has far stricter gun-laws than does Colorado.

And Lousiana is the worst state at 11.0 murders per 100,000 people.
If we're going to compare stats, let's do it with some measure of comparability.
and whats the gun law like in Lousiana?
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:19   Link #15778
GundamFan0083
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Same as Colorado.
The biggest difference is the poverty rate.
Lousiana is one of the poorest states in the Union.
I imagine that contributes heavily to their murder rate.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:26   Link #15779
MeoTwister5
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I'd believe that it's a misconception to say that murder (or even its success rate) is intrinsically tied to gun availability. Honestly, anyone who really wants to go out and off someone WILL find a way and WILL find a tool for the job. Killing isn't exclusive to a gun.

And really, murder rates are more a reflection of a society's moral values and responsibilities than it's guns per person ratio. You could have each person own an armory and have murder rates in the decimal points. Murderers are a product of society, not it's weapons.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:32   Link #15780
GundamFan0083
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I just noticed that chart didn't list the District of Columbia, so I googled around to find the murder per 100,000 of DC.

Holy Hell!
http://www.borderstan.com/01/dcs-dec...her-than-1964/

It's at 23.3 murders per 100,000, and that's down from 78.3!!
Their population is only around 600,000!

However, it is interesting to note that the article points to gang-violence as the leading cause of the murder rate there.
I can see that as being another major factor.
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