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Old 2011-08-14, 15:36   Link #15781
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post


No dear, the person who has had his/her mind scrubbed down with propaganda is the person who thinks that there is a functional difference between Scientific-Socialism (Marxism) and Fabian Socialism (European style Socialism).
They do have minor differences in theory, but in practice they are nearly identical

...What?

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Are you implying France became URSS when Mitterand became president or when Jospin became prime minister?

I'm talking about social democracy.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:39   Link #15782
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
However, it is interesting to note that the article points to gang-violence as the leading cause of the murder rate there.
I can see that as being another major factor.
Yeah, DC has some really fucking dangerous gangs. The likes of MS-13 isn't uncommon, among others.
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Old 2011-08-14, 15:56   Link #15783
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
...What?

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Are you implying France became URSS when Mitterand became president or when Jospin became prime minister?

I'm talking about social democracy.
No, I'm not saying that France succumbed to the Union des républiques socialistes soviétiques or USSR in English.

I'm referring to socialism in the Fabian sense, which has influenced Europe considerably after WWII.

This gents blog describes what I'm referring to.
http://www.social-europe.eu/2011/01/...e-future-hold/
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Old 2011-08-14, 16:09   Link #15784
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I... kinda have to wonder what happened in 2009, because the average for 2006-2008 of homicide (not just murder) is 0.69 for 100,000 people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No, I'm not saying that France succumbed to the Union des républiques socialistes soviétiques or USSR in English.

I'm referring to socialism in the Fabian sense, which has influenced Europe considerably after WWII.
And yet you said - your words - that in practice, they're nearly identical.

(which rather baffles me. We've had socialist governments. I don't remember any Stalinian purge happening.)
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Old 2011-08-14, 16:19   Link #15785
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The truth of the matter is very few of those murders are committed by legally-purchased guns. Most of it comes from the black market. You really think a would-be murderer is going to stop and obey gun control laws?
This isn't the point. In Europe people generally don't own any firearms, and there is no easy way to gain access to firearms like a black market or whatnot. And when people aren't armed, usually the worst that can happen when tempers flare are injuries. I have seen more guns on my vacations in the US than in my entire life in Europe combined (excluding my army time).

I prefer it that way. If only select people who apply for licences for valid reasons have firearms, people can't get killed with them (be it intentional or with accidents). There's a vast consensus about this, by the way. One of the main reasons? The situation in places without strict gun control.

I'm not sure how I would feel if I lived in the US though. The situation is so screwed due to the easy availability of firearms that I could actually see me purchase a gun to be kept at home for my own protection. But this is merely the lesser of two evils. I'd take my chances to be "raped and pillaged by madmen" everyday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
We also have a far more integrated population than Norway does.
That clash of culture and race causes considerable violence with or without guns.
In fact, the most violent areas of the US are the ones with the most gun-control laws poverty and gangs.
Gun control without abolishing gun possession for the population will do much less (though at times I can't believe how semi-automatic or even automatic weapons can be allowed). I'm not preaching to the US here - do as you please. But I'd try my hardest to make sure that the situation in Germany will NEVER become like this.

"Clash of culture" doesn't convince me either. Germany is also extremely diverse ethnically by today, and our homicide rate is only minimally higher than Norway.

Quote:
No, Europeans would rather let rioters rape, pillage, and murder for days on end rather than actually stand up and defend themselves.
Also, has there ever been a shooting of the magnitude in Oslo here in the US?
No.
An almost hilarious claim, but I don't feel like investing the time to disprove you. I can assure you that "rape, pillage and murder" is the total exception rather than the rule here. And I'd still prefer to put my trust into the police rather than armed vigilantes.

Quote:
No dear, the person who has had his/her mind scrubbed down with propaganda is the person who thinks that there is a functional difference between Scientific-Socialism (Marxism) and Fabian Socialism (European style Socialism).
I feel tempted to just give up on you as one more propaganda victim, but I'm too curious. Where's your source for this "Fabian Socialism" for your claim that Europe is like this (which part of Europe, by the way?)

Finally - have you ever been to Europe? If so, when and for how long?

Quote:
They do have minor differences in theory, but in practice they are nearly identical
Communism is a farce, it is not achievable.
Not a single EU government is communist. The only country I know of that has an extremely weak connection to Fabian socialism would be the UK via little parts of the Labour party. I wonder what you think our government types are...

Quote:
In practice it becomes more totalitarian as it attempts to keep from collapsing due to the burden of the entitlement systems and the shrinking number of private businesses.
As government takes over more and more control of the market, the problem continues to grow until austerity measures have to be put into place.
That means doing away with entitlement programs, and causing civil unrest.
That in turn gives the government the moral imperitive to clamp down on society and implement a totalitarian system.
The above sequence is EXACTLY what the Nazis did to achieve power in the 1930s.
The Russian example is similar.
Strange that those countries with the biggest entitlement programs - as you call them - seem to be the most successful ones. Look at Germany, Holland, Switzerland, or especially the scandinavian countries. All of them have balanced budgets and a social net that America could only dream of. How can that be?

How exactly does the government "clamp down on society"? It's not us who feel like telling partners that they must not marry if they happen to be of the same gender. It's not us who want to tell people what to do and not to do in our bedrooms. We don't need to incarcerate 1% of our population. I can positively assure you that personal freedoms are actually much _bigger_ over here, since people can actually do what they want WITHOUT having economic coercion fence them in.

Seriously, have you ever even BEEN here before, or are you just regurgitating what you read somewhere?

Last edited by Mentar; 2011-08-14 at 16:58. Reason: typo fixing
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Old 2011-08-14, 16:34   Link #15786
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Also, has there ever been a shooting of the magnitude in Oslo here in the US?
No.
Why?
Because unless it is in NYC, Mass, or some other place with strict gun-control laws, the perp would get killed.
32 deaths and 25 wounded, while not the exact same level, is still pretty damned high. Was in Virginia, with loose enough gun-control laws to allow a person, legally declared by a judge to be mentally unstable, to purchase a gun. He killed himself, he was not stopped by someone else.
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Old 2011-08-14, 16:34   Link #15787
Zakoo
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Why do you even try argue? He is free to think what he wants -even if it is wrong-.

Sorry to put it like that GundamFan, but that's nearly a slap that you gave me, when I read Synaesthetic posts, the only thing I want to say is "come here", because it's unbearable for me to read this and simply think "well each person has its own shit, if he is poor, he has to deal with it."

You are ready to sacrifice 90% of the population for ten percents by refusing healthcare -that is a choice- I won't tell you it's wrong or anything, US and Europe -especially the country where I live- have a little ... variance on this but I will only say this :

Humans and savages animals are differents, why? Generally animals will give up and save their own lives instead of helping the ones behind, that is something that the human -should- not do.

Socialism is at the very core of this, we have to try each others, ofc, the same way for religions there is "extremum"... I will agree only on one thing with you: communism as we know it, as history showed it, is not a good thing.

Generally I only speak about the biological difference, to think I would go on philosophical differences ... Haaa, how rare.

Well I will stop here though, it's not a political thread and I'm more the lurker type.
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Old 2011-08-14, 18:11   Link #15788
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And yet you said - your words - that in practice, they're nearly identical.

(which rather baffles me. We've had socialist governments. I don't remember any Stalinian purge happening.)
Then you'll find this book very interesting.
Show trials: Stalinist purges in Eastern Europe, 1948-1954 (Google eBook)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
This isn't the point. In Europe people generally don't own any firearms, and there is no easy way to gain access to firearms like a black market or whatnot. And when people aren't armed, usually the worst that can happen when tempers flare are injuries. I have seen more guns on my vacations in the US than in my entire life in Europe combined (excluding my army time).
Which only proves one thing.
It isn't the guns that are the problem.
It's the conditions the people are living under that lead to crime and thus increased potential for violence and murder.

Quote:
I prefer it that way. If only select people who apply for licences for valid reasons have firearms, people can't get killed with them (be it intentional or with accidents). There's a vast consensus about this, by the way. One of the main reasons? The situation in places without strict gun control.
Just because YOU prefer it, doesn't make it right.
Nor does it make you any safer.

Quote:
I'm not sure how I would feel if I lived in the US though. The situation is so screwed due to the easy availability of firearms that I could actually see me purchase a gun to be kept at home for my own protection. But this is merely the lesser of two evils. I'd take my chances to be "raped and pillaged by madmen" everyday.
You clearly have never lived in the US for very long.

Quote:
"Clash of culture" doesn't convince me either. Germany is also extremely diverse ethnically by today, and our homicide rate is only minimally higher than Norway.
It's been over a decade since I've been to Germany, and I can't say I saw much of a diffenence in culture there.
But then again I was stationed at Bitburg airbase (USAF) for a few months during "Operation Desert Shield" and came back to Barksdale AFB in the states.

Quote:
An almost hilarious claim, but I don't feel like investing the time to disprove you. I can assure you that "rape, pillage and murder" is the total exception rather than the rule here. And I'd still prefer to put my trust into the police rather than armed vigilantes.
Oh please, by all means laugh yourself silly.
The reasons for the riots are the same as they were in the 1960s.
The roll back of entitlement programs.
I didn't say it happens on a regular basis, I said it happens due to the entitlement society and the mindset that comes with it.
Putting trust in the police that are ordered to "stand and observe" isn't something I'm willing to put my faith in.


Quote:
I feel tempted to just give up on you as one more propaganda victim, but I'm too curious. Where's your source for this "Fabian Socialism" for your claim that Europe is like this (which part of Europe, by the way?)
If you don't know what Fabian Socialism is, or their influence on Europe then I question your knowledge of world politics as a whole.

Here is a good example of Fabian influence, by the Fabians themselves.
I fail to see how this is proganda since it's simply a fact that many persons of high postion in the EU are members of the Fabian Society.
The Fabians have a great deal of influence on other socalist groups and are thus the model for European Socialism.
What is so hard to understand about this?

Quote:
Not a single EU government is communist. The only country I know of that has an extremely weak connection to Fabian socialism would be the UK via little parts of the Labour party. I wonder what you think our government types are...
Communist?
See that tells me you don't even know what Fabianism is.
Beatrice and Sidney Webb, and George Bernard Shaw created Fabian Socialism as a viable alternative to Marx and Engles "Scientific-Socialism."
They didn't like each other, but both wanted to create planned societies.
Marx was off in his la-la-land of a command economy while the Fabians were looking at how to create an actual working socialist model.
I hate to have to defend the Fabians, but compared to Marx they are vastly more desirable.

Quote:
Strange that those countries with the biggest entitlement programs - as you call them - seem to be the most successful ones. Look at Germany, Holland, Switzerland, or especially the scandinavian countries. All of them have balanced budgets and a social net that America could only dream of. How can that be?
It's called NATO.
The US supplied most of the military might for Europe for much of the Cold War, and we're still doing it today.
Which is essentially military welfare to Europe, but hey...we'll just print more money to pay for it...our people are fat enough, they can starve a little bit to defend Europe for few more years.

Quote:
How exactly does the government "clamp down on society"? It's not us who feel like telling partners that they must not marry if they happen to be of the same gender. It's not us who want to tell people what to do and not to do in our bedrooms. We don't need to incarcerate 1% of our population. I can positively assure you that personal freedoms are actually much _bigger_ over here, since people can actually do what they want WITHOUT having economic coercion fence them in.

Seriously, have you ever even BEEN here before, or are you just regurgitating what you read somewhere?
I already answered that.
And as I've said before.
Collectivism comes in many forms, and I despise them all.
To me there is no difference between banning gay marriage and banning guns.
It's none of the government's damn business in either case and NO ONE has the right to tell another human being who they can marry or what property they can own.
I'm sure it will shock you to know that I view abortion the same way.
It is not the right of any one group to demand that a woman have a child if she doesn't want it.
You appear to be erroneously working off the assumption that I'm of the right-wing.
That shows me you have no idea just how far right the American right-wing is, since I'm considered a "lefty" by most people I know that are right-wingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
32 deaths and 25 wounded, while not the exact same level, is still pretty damned high. Was in Virginia, with loose enough gun-control laws to allow a person, legally declared by a judge to be mentally unstable, to purchase a gun. He killed himself, he was not stopped by someone else.
It is also known that he avoided the ROTC US Marine building on the VA Tech campus.
You wanna know why?
Because THEY WERE ARMED!!
We have "gun free school zones" in the US, and thats why he chose a classroom he knew would be easy picking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Why do you even try argue? He is free to think what he wants -even if it is wrong-.

Sorry to put it like that GundamFan, but that's nearly a slap that you gave me, when I read Synaesthetic posts, the only thing I want to say is "come here", because it's unbearable for me to read this and simply think "well each person has its own shit, if he is poor, he has to deal with it."
Don't be sorry.
I feel the same way about you.
You're wrong, about a great many things.
I only hope that people will learn what Socialism is before we see it's darker side as the economies collapse.
Marx was right about that in Das Kapital.

Quote:
You are ready to sacrifice 90% of the population for ten percents by refusing healthcare -that is a choice- I won't tell you it's wrong or anything, US and Europe -especially the country where I live- have a little ... variance on this but I will only say this :
Child PLEASE! GTFO of my face with that Bullshit!
90% are going to just Die!
Really?
What are they doing now?
Hmmm?
The Health Care law hasn't taken effect yet.
Are they dropping like flies?
No, and they won't after the Health Care Law is declared unconstitutional.
Get a grip.

Quote:
Socialism is at the very core of this, we have to try each others, ofc, the same way for religions there is "extremum"... I will agree only on one thing with you: communism as we know it, as history showed it, is not a good thing.
Yes, socialism is at the very core of this problem.
It is a system that requires considerable overhaul to be viable.
And Kudos to the Fabians for trying, but it's still not working because it doesn't take into consideration Human Action.
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Old 2011-08-14, 18:37   Link #15789
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
My god, if you have READ what Anh Minh said, cooled your head a little instead of going all RAEG COMMUNIST RAAAR HAET HAET HAET!!! You'd have actually known that he is french and that by "We" he meant Frenchmen. We, the French, had a functional socialist goverment for 14 years, without Reagan pulling a Chile over us.

Now would you please slow down on that little silly act you have been pulling for a while?
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Old 2011-08-14, 18:38   Link #15790
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Which only proves one thing.
It isn't the guns that are the problem.
It's the conditions the people are living under that lead to crime and thus increased potential for violence and murder.
If you want to argue that the conditions people are living under in the US lead to crime, violence and murder, I'm not going to contradict you. But adding guns to the situation increases the risk of grave injury and death. It takes alot to kill someone with your bare hands. It's just the squeeze of a finger with a gun.

Quote:
Just because YOU prefer it, doesn't make it right.
Nor does it make you any safer.
I can only say that in Europe I _am_ safer. The numbers are clear. I see no reason to jeopardize that.

Quote:
If you don't know what Fabian Socialism is, or their influence on Europe then I question your knowledge of world politics as a whole.
A little bit less pompous, please. Fabian Socialism is a non-factor in European politics.

Quote:
Here is a good example of Fabian influence, by the Fabians themselves.
I fail to see how this is proganda since it's simply a fact that many persons of high postion in the EU are members of the Fabian Society.
Like which? Which frontline politician claims to be part or affiliated with the Fabian Society? If you follow the link to your event, it's full of nobodies.

I can positively assuage your fears: Not even debating what the Fabian Society stands for, they're about as influential here as the Rosicrucians are in the US.

Quote:
Communist?
See that tells me you don't even know what Fabianism is.
Beatrice and Sidney Webb, and George Bernard Shaw created Fabian Socialism as a viable alternative to Marx and Engles "Scientific-Socialism."
They didn't like each other, but both wanted to create planned societies.
Marx was off in his la-la-land of a command economy while the Fabians were looking at how to create an actual working socialist model.
I hate to have to defend the Fabians, but compared to Marx they are vastly more desirable.
They are utterly IRRELEVANT. You make it sound as if they had any influence or were about to set some sinister plot in motion. Except for being a fringe group within the UK labour party (which I mentioned before), they play no role whatsoever in the UK, and with the awesome power of the UK when it comes to shaping continental Europe, they definitely wield no power whatsoever.

Quote:
It's called NATO.
The US supplied most of the military might for Europe for much of the Cold War, and we're still doing it today.
Which is essentially military welfare to Europe, but hey...we'll just print more money to pay for it...our people are fat enough, they can starve a little bit to defend Europe for few more years.
Then by all means don't let NATO keep you from treating your poor humanely. Time to scale back (I actually do mean that)

Quote:
You appear to be erroneously working off the assumption that I'm of the right-wing.
That shows me you have no idea just how far right the American right-wing is, since I'm considered a "lefty" by most people I know that are right-wingers.
With the list of positions you made, I fully believe that - I'd rather see you on the libertarian side instead of the evangelical reactionaries. But your irrational hatred of what you call "socialism" (which has little to nothing in common with what socialism really is, by the way) is exactly the propaganda strawman I was talking about before: You believe to have understood something about the political system(s) in Europe which isn't really true. And if you're seriously equating Stalin's atrocities with European social democracies, then you're off the cliff *shrug*
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Old 2011-08-14, 18:38   Link #15791
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I don't think your societies are more or less collectivist, I was referring to the mindset of the people.
What's the difference? I actually think Ireland/britain is less collective then the US. No one talks to anyone here, and we're pretty selfish. That's like the opposite of collectivism. Japan, now IT'S collectivist.

Quote:
I agree, so you Europeans need to start rolling back all your gun-control laws, pass castle doctrines, and actually encourage people to stop psychos like that idiot in Oslo and the rioters in England.
I'm not talking "bubba" style vigilantism, I'm talking government encouraged programs such as the US CMP, and volunteer police/militia units (under government control/coordination) to help in extreme circumstances such as the riots in England.

I should note that the CMP is a progressive organization created by Theodore Roosevelt under the Militia Act of 1903.
Examine this list. United States has over 100, Europe (twice the population of the USA) has 17. I don't think the US should be giving us lessons on gun control. In fact, thank god the chavs who were looting all over the place in London didn't get their hands on guns. The fact that the riots went on so long is more a case of police incompetence.

The United States is the only country I've ever seen that has schools with armed guards posted at the doors, and grills on every window. I've never seen a European school get that bad(and I've seen some pretty poor slums).


Quote:
Oh no, no.
We know you're not Marxists...you're Fabians.
And who are you kidding, we Americans live on Cheeseburgers, French Fries, Pizza, and ice cream...our national beverage is basically syrup mixed with water (soda pop)...we are fat tourists...only the stupid part is marginally incorrect.
Fabianism is a british thing, little influence on the continent. And Europeans are getting pretty fat, and when I was on exchange in the US I saw some pretty fit girls...

Quote:
I'll let all of you be the judge of that.

The Modern M14 known as the SOCOM 16:

Spoiler for NICE BIG PICTURE OF IT.:


The Modern AK-74:

Spoiler for AK-74:
If you dunked your m14 in muddy water, would it still fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The truth of the matter is very few of those murders are committed by legally-purchased guns. Most of it comes from the black market. You really think a would-be murderer is going to stop and obey gun control laws?
I'd say most gun offences aren't committed with legally bought guns. But it would be very easy for someone to illegally buy a gun from someone who bought one legally. The US has a large black market in arms(that seeps into Mexico...), whereas in Europe, only the hardened organised criminals can usually get their hands on guns. It's outside the capability of the stupid chav walking down the street who'd probably shoot you for kicks (but who instead knifes you...). I'll take being knifed over being shot.

Quote:
Marx was a dreamer who wanted to go back to the Feudal era.
Karl should have known that in the Feudal era the aristocracy was the problem, it was they who were oppressing the masses.
His wishing to return to that kind of a society just proves one thing about Marx.
In short, Marx was a retrogressive idiot.

Read the communist manifesto.
Marx's goal was a classless stateless society. That's a very different proposition from Feudalism. All the reactionaries of Europe hated the Socialist's guts, and they wanted a return to feudalism, where the average worker was a serf entirely controlled by their "betters". Now in effect, Soviet communism ended out as a sort of quasi-feudal arrangement, but that wasn't the goal of Marx, and it certainly wasn't the goal of European communists and socialists outside Russia. You can get a very good idea of Communist and Socialist ideals from reading the manifesto, it's also pretty well written. A lot more fiery then most manifestos. It tells you how Communists viewed themselves, and what their ideals were.

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Why not?
Are you implying that you Europeans are to barbaric to handle guns?
Chavs are. I don't like the idea of a Chav being able to take me by surprise and shoot me for kicks. Because I know they would. Our gun control works so well that most of our Gardaí don't need to carry guns. Or even a taser. You can do pretty well with just a baton, pepper spray, and a whole lot of guts...

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So?
China has the harshest gun laws in the world and they just had a mass shooting a few years ago.
You all need to lay off the Koolaid.
One in a country of a billion (with a lot of corruption), hundred in a country of 300 million, your point?

Quote:
Maybe if you'd actually do some research about socialism and Marxism you'd learn what those terms mean and how they have actually worked in real life rather than on paper.
And you should take your examples from the Social Democracies of Western Europe, and not the dysfunctional Despotic Communist Regimes of Eastern Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'd believe that it's a misconception to say that murder (or even its success rate) is intrinsically tied to gun availability. Honestly, anyone who really wants to go out and off someone WILL find a way and WILL find a tool for the job. Killing isn't exclusive to a gun.

And really, murder rates are more a reflection of a society's moral values and responsibilities than it's guns per person ratio. You could have each person own an armory and have murder rates in the decimal points. Murderers are a product of society, not it's weapons.
True, but I don't think we can get away from youth gangs wherever you live, and I'd prefer to live in a society where they don't have them. The average gang member in Europe doesn't have guns, while in the US it's commonplace.

And overall, Europe has lower gun violence and homocide rates, so I'd say the policies work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
It is also known that he avoided the ROTC US Marine building on the VA Tech campus.
You wanna know why?
Because THEY WERE ARMED!!
We have "gun free school zones" in the US, and thats why he chose a classroom he knew would be easy picking.
I attended Virginia tech on an exchange, the ROTC does not have guns. In fact I talked to some gun advocates and he said(roughly) "they should at least have let the ROTC carry guns, they'd have been able to chase Cho off as there's an ROTC cadet in nearly every class". ROTC has no guns inside the campus. The whole campus is a no gun zone, even before the shooting.
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Old 2011-08-14, 19:59   Link #15792
flying ^
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Unfortunately what I fear is that once the riots are squashed, everyone will move on to something else and ignore the causes for social collapses like this.
no need to overthink the causes/roots blah blah..... this old school brit eloquently summed it up best

http://www.youtube.com/v/9pAC0YSmK0g
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Old 2011-08-14, 20:38   Link #15793
GundamFan0083
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
My god, if you have READ what Anh Minh said, cooled your head a little instead of going all RAEG COMMUNIST RAAAR HAET HAET HAET!!! You'd have actually known that he is french and that by "We" he meant Frenchmen. We, the French, had a functional socialist goverment for 14 years, without Reagan pulling a Chile over us.

Now would you please slow down on that little silly act you have been pulling for a while?
Oh I see, he was strictly speaking of France.
My mistake, I'm having too much fun with Mentar right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
If you want to argue that the conditions people are living under in the US lead to crime, violence and murder, I'm not going to contradict you. But adding guns to the situation increases the risk of grave injury and death. It takes alot to kill someone with your bare hands. It's just the squeeze of a finger with a gun.
No, actually guns don't have much of an effect at all here.
Unlike other cultures, gun control laws don't stop criminals at all.
I'd be dead right now if it weren't for owning a gun, so you're not going to convince me.

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I can only say that in Europe I _am_ safer. The numbers are clear. I see no reason to jeopardize that.
If you think you're safer, then I hope you're right.

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A little bit less pompous, please. Fabian Socialism is a non-factor in European politics.
I suppose it has been nearly a decade since Tony Blair was in office.
I read his book "The Third Way" which was published by the Fabian Society.
The way he writes it, you'd think that the Fabians rule Europe.

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Like which? Which frontline politician claims to be part or affiliated with the Fabian Society? If you follow the link to your event, it's full of nobodies.
Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were prominent members.

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I can positively assuage your fears: Not even debating what the Fabian Society stands for, they're about as influential here as the Rosicrucians are in the US.
Fear, no I don't fear them, I just don't like their policies or politics.

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They are utterly IRRELEVANT. You make it sound as if they had any influence or were about to set some sinister plot in motion. Except for being a fringe group within the UK labour party (which I mentioned before), they play no role whatsoever in the UK, and with the awesome power of the UK when it comes to shaping continental Europe, they definitely wield no power whatsoever.
If you say so.

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Then by all means don't let NATO keep you from treating your poor humanely. Time to scale back (I actually do mean that)
We agree here. NATO has to be cut back.
It's not fair to Europe, nor the US to continue to have US bases on European soil.
We're not your babysitters and I'm quite sure you don't want us to be.


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With the list of positions you made, I fully believe that - I'd rather see you on the libertarian side instead of the evangelical reactionaries. But your irrational hatred of what you call "socialism" (which has little to nothing in common with what socialism really is, by the way) is exactly the propaganda strawman I was talking about before: You believe to have understood something about the political system(s) in Europe which isn't really true. And if you're seriously equating Stalin's atrocities with European social democracies, then you're off the cliff *shrug*
No, I didn't equate them.
I said I despise collectivism, and socialism is just one form.
Theocracy is another, as it Fascism, etc.
I understand that Stalin took the leap from socialism into despotism and I said so in my previous posts.


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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
What's the difference? I actually think Ireland/britain is less collective then the US. No one talks to anyone here, and we're pretty selfish. That's like the opposite of collectivism. Japan, now IT'S collectivist.
Hmmm, I think in some ways you're probably right depending on which parts of this country you're talking about and whether you mean on a Federal or state level.

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Examine this list. United States has over 100, Europe (twice the population of the USA) has 17. I don't think the US should be giving us lessons on gun control. In fact, thank god the chavs who were looting all over the place in London didn't get their hands on guns. The fact that the riots went on so long is more a case of police incompetence.
Perhaps we Americans are just a more violent lot than the rest of the world?
We do like to fight, and we do like to kill.
We immerse ourselves in sex, and violence in our entertainment and in our literature.
So is it really that odd that the USA should have more school shootings, murders, or gangs then other Western countries?
Take away the guns and you'll have the same rates of murder, gang violence, etc. only with different means.
I don't mean that as a boast or brag, it's actually kinda sad.

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The United States is the only country I've ever seen that has schools with armed guards posted at the doors, and grills on every window. I've never seen a European school get that bad(and I've seen some pretty poor slums).
You forgot about Israel.

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Fabianism is a british thing, little influence on the continent. And Europeans are getting pretty fat, and when I was on exchange in the US I saw some pretty fit girls...
Yes I know the Fabian Society is a British thing, but they've helped other socialist movements in Europe. I don't see them as some grand cabal of old men in a smoke filled room plotting world domination.
I see them as a rotting old socialist movement that's trying to hang on to it's influence by helping new socialist movements.

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If you dunked your m14 in muddy water, would it still fire?
The AK definitely is king of reliability, but not so much on accuracy or quality of parts.
The reason the Ak is so reliable is because of its loose tolerances.
The trade off is a loss of accuracy.
Both are great weapons for defense.

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Read the communist manifesto.
Marx's goal was a classless stateless society. That's a very different proposition from Feudalism. All the reactionaries of Europe hated the Socialist's guts, and they wanted a return to feudalism, where the average worker was a serf entirely controlled by their "betters". Now in effect, Soviet communism ended out as a sort of quasi-feudal arrangement, but that wasn't the goal of Marx, and it certainly wasn't the goal of European communists and socialists outside Russia. You can get a very good idea of Communist and Socialist ideals from reading the manifesto, it's also pretty well written. A lot more fiery then most manifestos. It tells you how Communists viewed themselves, and what their ideals were.
I own a copy of the Communist Manifesto. I read it often.
The point I was making was that H.G. Wells, a Fabian member for some years, stated that Marx was dreaming about a new agrarian Feudal era.

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Chavs are. I don't like the idea of a Chav being able to take me by surprise and shoot me for kicks. Because I know they would. Our gun control works so well that most of our Gardaí don't need to carry guns. Or even a taser. You can do pretty well with just a baton, pepper spray, and a whole lot of guts...
Glad to hear gun control works for you over there.
Over here that wouldn't work due to the weapons smuggled in from South America, and the sheer number that are already here.
Not too mention weapons that get sold on the black market.
It's simply a matter of society and mindset, and that's what I've been saying from the begining.

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One in a country of a billion (with a lot of corruption), hundred in a country of 300 million, your point?
Gun control will not stop a determined individual from committing crime, nor will it deter criminals who have no respect for law to begin with.

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And you should take your examples from the Social Democracies of Western Europe, and not the dysfunctional Despotic Communist Regimes of Eastern Europe.
I understand what you're saying, but my point is still that European style Social Democracy wouldn't work in the USA.
The corruption in such a system applied to the USA the way it is now would shock you.

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True, but I don't think we can get away from youth gangs wherever you live, and I'd prefer to live in a society where they don't have them. The average gang member in Europe doesn't have guns, while in the US it's commonplace.
Only because the black market is full of stolen, and illegally imported weapons.
The UK has the benefit of being surrounded by water on all sides, I doubt it's easy for criminals to smuggle weapons into your country.

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And overall, Europe has lower gun violence and homocide rates, so I'd say the policies work.
Maybe in Europe they do, but not over here.

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I attended Virginia tech on an exchange, the ROTC does not have guns. In fact I talked to some gun advocates and he said(roughly) "they should at least have let the ROTC carry guns, they'd have been able to chase Cho off as there's an ROTC cadet in nearly every class". ROTC has no guns inside the campus. The whole campus is a no gun zone, even before the shooting.
Not even the US armed forces recruits could have guns on campus?
No wonder these shooters choose them.
They're easy pickings.
How many "gun-show" shootings do you read about?
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Old 2011-08-14, 20:56   Link #15794
MeoTwister5
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@DonQuigleone

I insists on the observation that social and moral change will always be the core requirement in deterring violent crime. The cliche that people kill people, not guns, will be sickeningly repeated ad nauseum, but it's truth will never dissipate.
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Old 2011-08-14, 20:56   Link #15795
Dextro
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Why not?
Are you implying that you Europeans are to barbaric to handle guns?
I'm implying that most Europeans are too civilized to consider owning an instrument designed with the sole purpose of inflicting harm upon another living being a fundamental right. Such instruments are nothing more than a necessary evil to be employed by law-enforcing agencies in order to protect their respective populations.

Also, regarding NATO: we are indeed very thankful to our allies in the organization for helping us with their military might. We in return have helped to the best of our abilities even when the organization was used to start a couple of wars of debatable usefulness following the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

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Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
no need to overthink the causes/roots blah blah..... this old school brit eloquently summed it up best

http://www.youtube.com/v/9pAC0YSmK0g
The bit about the working conditions for the modern british policeman is particularly important for our quick to judge USA friends in this thread.
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Old 2011-08-14, 20:58   Link #15796
GDB
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Not even the US armed forces recruits could have guns on campus?
No wonder these shooters choose them.
They're easy pickings.
How many "gun-show" shootings do you read about?
I hear gangs usually have guns. And I hear gangs are usually involved in the shootings and otherwise murder of other gangs. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they're safe if someone else wants them dead.
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Old 2011-08-14, 20:59   Link #15797
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
I'm implying that most Europeans are too civilized to consider owning an instrument designed with the sole purpose of inflicting harm upon another living being a fundamental right. Such instruments are nothing more than a necessary evil to be employed by law-enforcing agencies in order to protect their respective populations.
Good answer, can't say I can argue against that one.
We Americans on the other hand, can't handle that kind of society.
We'd flip out.

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Also, regarding NATO: we are indeed very thankful to our allies in the organization for helping us with their military might. We in return have helped to the best of our abilities even when the organization was used to start a couple of wars of debatable usefulness following the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
Thank you.
But aren't you Europeans sick of American bases in your countries?
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Old 2011-08-14, 21:00   Link #15798
Dextro
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Thank you.
But aren't you Europeans sick of American bases in your countries?
Not at all, you guys usually pay well enough.
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Old 2011-08-14, 21:00   Link #15799
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I hear gangs usually have guns. And I hear gangs are usually involved in the shootings and otherwise murder of other gangs. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they're safe if someone else wants them dead.
Nope, but speaking from experience, I can say it sure helps having one when faced with an armed assailant.

@Dextro: Touche!!
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Old 2011-08-14, 21:05   Link #15800
Bri
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No, Europeans would rather let rioters rape, pillage, and murder for days on end rather than actually stand up and defend themselves.
Also, has there ever been a shooting of the magnitude in Oslo here in the US?
No.
Why?
Because unless it is in NYC, Mass, or some other place with strict gun-control laws, the perp would get killed.
The Oslo shooting is fairly similar to Columbine. The difference in the number of victims has more to do with a lack of escape options rather then anyone stopping the shooters. It's easier to get away from a suburban schoolbuilding than a small island.

In Oslo the shooter had a permit, was well prepared, attacked a public place and had the element of surprise. He used a semi-automatic weapon and wore body armor. How would anyone carrying a gun have made any difference? I'm sure that even people living in states without strict guncontrol would not walk around with rifles on their backs all the time. I'm not against gunownership, but I can't see trying to defend against a well organized attack as the most logical justification for owning a gun.

Also, not possesing guns doesn't mean that Europeans don't care about their safety or will not take any responsebility for it. My girlfriend for example loves to go jogging in the evening. As she dual wields our 2 120 pound Rottweilers, I don't have to be concerned about safety, well... not hers at least.

Joking aside, I think guns don't mix well with urban areas with drug, poverty and gang problems. If there are no guns easily available in the public space then non lethal means will be sufficient for self defence and that will keep the number of people dying from violent crime low. But as soon as guns are easily available in the public space, you will have to live with them, and owning one will put you (at least somewhat) back on par with criminals.
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