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Old 2011-08-14, 21:16   Link #15801
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Nope, but speaking from experience, I can say it sure helps having one when faced with an armed assailant.
Depends on what their intent initially was (and assuming they're armed with a gun and not a knife). If they were only intending to steal, and you pull a gun and don't immediately use it, there's a high chance that the culprit will panic and do something they never intended to do. Hell, even if you don't pull it and merely motion toward a gun that they can see could lead to that situation. And I'd say the number of non-criminals who actually have a gun and are able to fire it (psychologically, not physically) at another human are much lower than the number of criminals who would.
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Old 2011-08-14, 21:35   Link #15802
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
The Oslo shooting is fairly similar to Columbine. The difference in the number of victims has more to do with a lack of escape options rather then anyone stopping the shooters. It's easier to get away from a suburban schoolbuilding than a small island.
And the Jefferson County Sheriff's department dropped the ball on Columbine.
I live in Colorado, we know why it was as bad as it was.
The response time by the Sheriff dept was not acceptable.

Quote:
In Oslo the shooter had a permit, was well prepared, attacked a public place and had the element of surprise. He used a semi-automatic weapon and wore body armor. How would anyone carrying a gun have made any difference? I'm sure that even people living in states without strict guncontrol would not walk around with rifles on their backs all the time. I'm not against gunownership, but I can't see trying to defend against a well organized attack as the most logical justification for owning a gun.
Oh, no you're quite right.
A determined, well armed, and organized individual will do immense amounts of carnage.
That's the problem.
Gun-control really doesn't help at all.
What can stop these people is the proverbial "64 million dollar" question.
No one has come up with an answer for that yet.

Quote:
Also, not possesing guns doesn't mean that Europeans don't care about their safety or will not take any responsebility for it. My girlfriend for example loves to go jogging in the evening. As she dual wields our 2 120 pound Rottweilers, I don't have to be concerned about safety, well... not hers at least.
Good point, can't say I'd want to tangle with a pair of Rottweilers even with a gun.
Strange thing about the US.
We ban dogs, well primarily pit bulls here in Colorado.
I can walk into my local gun shop and buy an AR-15, so long as I don't have a pitbull.


Quote:
Joking aside, I think guns don't mix well with urban areas with drug, poverty and gang problems. If there are no guns easily available in the public space then non lethal means will be sufficient for self defence and that will keep the number of people dying from violent crime low. But as soon as guns are easily available in the public space, you will have to live with them, and owning one will put you (at least somewhat) back on par with criminals.
No, I agree with you, guns do not mix well in urban areas with high rates of poverty, drugs, and gangs with the following exception.
Citizens who are law abiding, and are willing to train to use them, should be allowed permits to own and carry firearms for their protection.
No one should have to live in dangerous conditions.
I've lived in parts of Denver that absolutely required me to own a firearm for protection.
I would have been crazy not to have one and a permit to carry.
So again, the society you live in greatly effects the effectiveness of gun-control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Depends on what their intent initially was (and assuming they're armed with a gun and not a knife). If they were only intending to steal, and you pull a gun and don't immediately use it, there's a high chance that the culprit will panic and do something they never intended to do. Hell, even if you don't pull it and merely motion toward a gun that they can see could lead to that situation. And I'd say the number of non-criminals who actually have a gun and are able to fire it (psychologically, not physically) at another human are much lower than the number of criminals who would.
I did not have to shoot them.
There were three of them at a 7/11 in downtown Commerce City.
Here to be exact:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rl...ed=0CBIQnwIwAA

Fortunately, after I brandished my pistol, they didn't try to rush me with the knives they had.
I don't know if I could have gotten them both fast enough (the two with the knives).
I don't ever want to be in that situation again, gun or no gun.

__________________________________________________ ______

And now for some actual news. Since this IS a news thread.
My apologies to the Mods.
I don't try to be a trouble maker...honestly.

Death toll rises in Indiana State Fair stage collapse
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77D07E20110814

Gallup: Obama job rating sinks below 40% for first time
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:15   Link #15803
ganbaru
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Time Warner to buy Insight for $3 billion:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77D30220110815
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:19   Link #15804
GundamFan0083
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Wow, here's an op-ed by Maureen that I can agree with.

Power to the Corporation!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/op...tion.html?_r=1
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:26   Link #15805
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I suppose it has been nearly a decade since Tony Blair was in office.
I read his book "The Third Way" which was published by the Fabian Society.
The way he writes it, you'd think that the Fabians rule Europe.
Well he would say that. As far as I know, the British labour party is to the right of most European labour parties. A lot of hardliners in Britain considered Blair& Brown sellouts. There's a lot of socialist traditions in Europe. Also, the Labour Party prior to Blair & Brown was a very different beast, less 3rd way more "fight for the workers". Arguably achieved a lot of good (NHS, public housing, education for all) and a lot of bad (overpowered unions, dysfunctional state industries). I can say my dad wouldn't have gotten an education (and later become a university proffessor) without the 11+ and free access to high quality secondary schools it allowed, he grew up in Northern Ireland.

Quote:
We agree here. NATO has to be cut back.
It's not fair to Europe, nor the US to continue to have US bases on European soil.
We're not your babysitters and I'm quite sure you don't want us to be.
I think the NATO relationship is fair enough, and there are far less bases then their used to be. The EU is the second biggest spender (collectively) on military worldwide, I'd say we pull our weight, though I think European governments are less interested in interfering outside our immediate geographic area then the US. I think the EU in itself is a good lesson in achieving our goals without weapons. Remember that we're on the same team here.

Quote:
No, I didn't equate them.
I said I despise collectivism, and socialism is just one form.
Theocracy is another, as it Fascism, etc.
I understand that Stalin took the leap from socialism into despotism and I said so in my previous posts.
Socialism has collectivist strains, but in a sense it's also quite individualist. The idea is to render unto the worker control over his labour and the products of it, and to prevent them from being controlled by capitalist masters. The unfortunate thing is that in socialist states they just replaced capitalist masters with politburo ones. Either way the worker gets screwed.



Quote:
Perhaps we Americans are just a more violent lot than the rest of the world?
We do like to fight, and we do like to kill.
We immerse ourselves in sex, and violence in our entertainment and in our literature.
So is it really that odd that the USA should have more school shootings, murders, or gangs then other Western countries?
Take away the guns and you'll have the same rates of murder, gang violence, etc. only with different means.
I don't mean that as a boast or brag, it's actually kinda sad.
Nonsense, surely you can see from the events in London that Britain has just as much latent violence waiting to bubble up. The difference is that we manage to keep the average low life thug because the legal market is too small to resell to them, also I have my suspicions that the big crime bosses keep a monopoly on arms. And with the extremely large alcohol problem Britain &Ireland has, that the US does not, I think there would be even more problems if Guns were on the street. As it is our A&E departments are filled with alcohol related injuries every Friday and Saturday. Imagine how much worse it would be if these guys had guns and not just broken bottles and knives? Too many violent idiots to allow them to get guns.

I will admit that America seems to produce more violent psychopaths who want to attack schools. Don't know how to explain that, and I doubt tighter gun controls would prevent that, as those types are determined. But it would prevent most of the gang violence.

Quote:
You forgot about Israel.
It's not in Europe

Quote:
Glad to hear gun control works for you over there.
Over here that wouldn't work due to the weapons smuggled in from South America, and the sheer number that are already here.
Not too mention weapons that get sold on the black market.
It's simply a matter of society and mindset, and that's what I've been saying from the begining.
While you have South America, we have Africa, same difference. The mediterranean isn't much of a barrier. As for the US already having a lot of guns in circulation, that's an issue, but not an insurmountable one. You just need a gradual draw down of guns. You also don't need to eliminate all guns. For instance most farmers in Europe are allowed to own and keep guns, but usually only rifles/shotguns. I've also been in America a fair amount, obviously there are differences, but I don't think there's any huge differences. Frankly, my Irish compatriots and I have more in common with Americans then Germans.

Quote:
Gun control will not stop a determined individual from committing crime, nor will it deter criminals who have no respect for law to begin with.
It will mean that guys probably only going to be using a knife. It can still kill you, but well...

Quote:
I understand what you're saying, but my point is still that European style Social Democracy wouldn't work in the USA.
The corruption in such a system applied to the USA the way it is now would shock you.
Corruption isn't a uniquelly American phenomena. We have pretty corrupt politicans too. Again, it's not an insurmountable problem. At least the US doesn't have all the petty corruption a lot of other countries have, you never hear about people needing to give out bribes to be seen by the Police etc. The problem in the US is pretty restricted to the highest levels, so I don't think the problems are so insurmountable. If you compare that to Italy, there's corruption at every level, much harder to weed out.

Quote:
Only because the black market is full of stolen, and illegally imported weapons.
The UK has the benefit of being surrounded by water on all sides, I doubt it's easy for criminals to smuggle weapons into your country.
The sea helps, but the sea doesn't stop loads of cocaine and heroin getting in. My theory is that the big drug cartels try and keep the small thugs from getting weapons and muscling in.

Quote:
Not even the US armed forces recruits could have guns on campus?
No wonder these shooters choose them.
They're easy pickings.
How many "gun-show" shootings do you read about?
I don't know the specifics, but I don't think ROTC cadets are recruits in the sense you're thinking. They do drills, but I don't think they've gone through basic training or anything. Obviously, due to the university education they're receiving BEFORE entering the army, they're probably pegged for NCO, Engineer and Naval roles, so it's probably not as important they be able to use a gun early on. I don't really know the specifics. They'd probably do better in a fight then the average student (group cohesion, general fitness), but I doubt they'd be mentally prepared for a firefight, nor would they have the training required to do it safely in an environment with a lot of panicking civilians.

On a side note, the ROTC guys were very nice. I had classes with a few. In fact, they were probably one of the least jingoistic groups on that campus, which is interesting. V tech is a really nice place generally, actually.

EDIT: just to sum up my view on guns, in principle I see little wrong with allowing law abiding citizens access to guns, I think doing so opens a floodgates that means it's extremely easy for low level street thugs to get their hands on them. You just need one or two bad eggs with gun licenses. Obviously guns are still out there, and you can't stop the worst crimes, but I think it stops more "casual" gun crime.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-08-14 at 22:37.
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:34   Link #15806
GundamFan0083
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Thank you for that DQ.
It clarifies a great deal, and certainly is fun to exchange information with people across the Atlantic.

I see that you've got some seriously bad new this weekend over in England.
My condolences to the families of the six people killed.

Six killed in Jersey knife attack
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8701...fe-attack.html
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:38   Link #15807
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Thank you for that DQ.
It clarifies a great deal, and certainly is fun to exchange information with people across the Atlantic.

I see that you've got some seriously bad new this weekend over in England.
My condolences to the families of the six people killed.

Six killed in Jersey knife attack
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8701...fe-attack.html
Told you knife crime can get bad. Britain has really bad figures for it (I don't know the stats). Though Jersey is a pretty out of the way place to happen. Less then 100,000

Also from Warren Buffet.

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
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Old 2011-08-14, 22:45   Link #15808
Ithekro
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In terms of campus ruckus, the largest (and weirdest) was by far Berkeley's college campus. I've only been their twice and the weirdness was just too much to even explain. Sure the classrooms are fine and from what I understand the farther north you go on the campus (towards the computer science buildings) the more "normal" it gets...but the place is just too weird for me. Also last time I was there (when I think was a about 15 years ago) the area around the campus was also too weird. Maybe they've cleaned it up since then, but there seemed like a lot of homeless types right around there and the used bookstore just off campus. That or they were former students left behind from the late 1960s that never bothered to leave...since they all gave off the image of "old hippies". (Other with us said they saw the "naked man" or maybe a streeker that supposedly was a fixture in the area.)
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Old 2011-08-15, 07:00   Link #15809
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Oh I see, he was strictly speaking of France.
My mistake, I'm having too much fun with Mentar right now.
I certainly wasn't talking about Cold War era Eastern Europe (France isn't the only country to have had socialist governments). Neither was Mentar. Neither should you, when you're talking about "Fabian Socialism", or contemporary European Social Democracy.
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Old 2011-08-15, 07:11   Link #15810
ganbaru
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Somalis suffer and die as Islamists ban ‘infidel’ aid
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2129278/
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Old 2011-08-15, 07:33   Link #15811
Haak
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A new level of dickishness has just been achieved...
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Old 2011-08-15, 07:51   Link #15812
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Told you knife crime can get bad. Britain has really bad figures for it (I don't know the stats). Though Jersey is a pretty out of the way place to happen. Less then 100,000

Also from Warren Buffet.

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
Well that is the first time he has been that candid. Usually he is rather sarcastic about the lack of progress from the Congress.
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Old 2011-08-15, 08:11   Link #15813
andyjay729
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Well, from what I've heard, Buffet really is more on the left side. Make of that what you will. The rich aren't all like the Koch brothers.
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Old 2011-08-15, 09:18   Link #15814
Tom Bombadil
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14530543

Quote:
Internet giant Google has announced a deal to buy Motorola Mobility for $12.5bn (7.7bn).

A joint statement said the boards of both companies had unanimously approved the deal, which should be completed by the end of this year, or early in 2012.
Well, that's got be a big deal.
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Old 2011-08-15, 10:14   Link #15815
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14530543

Well, that's got be a big deal.
My guess is that it is the M&A season combined with the ever so screwed up USD. Previous Hitachi and Mitsubishi are talking about a merger which snapped, now Google is buying Motorola?

Though I find it quite interesting that Google was trolling other companies during the Nortel bids a few months ago and now it is spending money on an established tech-corp : seems to me like they are gunning to be an NWO through the control of the Internets.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:05   Link #15816
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Told you knife crime can get bad. Britain has really bad figures for it (I don't know the stats). Though Jersey is a pretty out of the way place to happen. Less then 100,000
Yes you did.

Quote:
Also from Warren Buffet.

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
Not surprising really.
Warren is an old school Liberal from what I can tell of the man.
He's not "New Left" nor is he "Neo-Liberal."
I agree with most of what he said in that article.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I certainly wasn't talking about Cold War era Eastern Europe (France isn't the only country to have had socialist governments). Neither was Mentar. Neither should you, when you're talking about "Fabian Socialism", or contemporary European Social Democracy.
I'll grant you that the modern incarnations of socialism (Fabianism, Social Democrats, and labour movements) are preferable to the old hard-line Marxists, but I still wouldn't want to live under their rule.

In other news:

Don't take a wizz on the side of the road in Oakland.
Oakland Officer Shoots Suspect In Alleged Assault And Public Urination

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...lic-urination/

Gloating China, Hidden Problems
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...-problems.html
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:35   Link #15817
Xellos-_^
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http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/08/15/...mormon-themes/

A Virginia school district has banned a book on the legendary sleuther for how it portrays the Mormon faith.
Last week, the Albemarle County School Board removed Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's first Sherlock Holmes novel, A Study in Scarlet, from its sixth-grade reading list. Several former middle school students opposed the removal of the Victorian-era text, one calling it “the best book I have read so far,” but the mystery novel was nonetheless booted.
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:52   Link #15818
Vexx
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A fair number of the "super-rich" *remember* that if they push too hard, the guillotines might come out. Caustic jerks like the Koch brothers think they're insulated from that scenario.

Quote:
A Virginia school district has banned a book on the legendary sleuther for how it portrays the Mormon faith.
Last week, the Albemarle County School Board removed Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's first Sherlock Holmes novel, A Study in Scarlet, from its sixth-grade reading list. Several former middle school students opposed the removal of the Victorian-era text, one calling it “the best book I have read so far,” but the mystery novel was nonetheless booted.
This is in the same vein of bullshit that gets books like Huckleberry Finn banned because it historically portrays the attitudes of the era the book is set in (e.g. the use of the words "nigger", "nigra", etc in Huck Finn's era). The Mormons have gone to a lot of trouble to sterilize their history --- a number of my ancestor's relatives were killed in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, committed by Mormons with some evidence that it was ordered/encouraged from the very top. To this day, my relatives (and I) periodically have Mormons appearing at our doorstep hoping to get sign-offs on an apology so *their* ancestors will be purified of any sin according to their heavenly process.
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:05   Link #15819
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/08/15/...mormon-themes/

A Virginia school district has banned a book on the legendary sleuther for how it portrays the Mormon faith.
Last week, the Albemarle County School Board removed Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's first Sherlock Holmes novel, A Study in Scarlet, from its sixth-grade reading list. Several former middle school students opposed the removal of the Victorian-era text, one calling it the best book I have read so far, but the mystery novel was nonetheless booted.
So much for the 1st Amendment.
Land of the free my arse.
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:20   Link #15820
Xellos-_^
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/ar...1&ref=business

When copyright law was revised in the mid-1970s, musicians, like creators of other works of art, were granted “termination rights,” which allow them to regain control of their work after 35 years, so long as they apply at least two years in advance. Recordings from 1978 are the first to fall under the purview of the law, but in a matter of months, hits from 1979, like “The Long Run” by the Eagles and “Bad Girls” by Donna Summer, will be in the same situation — and then, as the calendar advances, every other master recording once it reaches the 35-year mark.

The provision also permits songwriters to reclaim ownership of qualifying songs. Bob Dylan has already filed to regain some of his compositions, as have other rock, pop and country performers like Tom Petty, Bryan Adams, Loretta Lynn, Kris Kristofferson, Tom Waits and Charlie Daniels, according to records on file at the United States Copyright Office.

“In terms of all those big acts you name, the recording industry has made a gazillion dollars on those masters, more than the artists have,” said Don Henley, a founder both of the Eagles and the Recording Artists Coalition, which seeks to protect performers’ legal rights. “So there’s an issue of parity here, of fairness. This is a bone of contention, and it’s going to get more contentious in the next couple of years.”
With the recording industry already reeling from plummeting sales, termination rights claims could be another serious financial blow. Sales plunged to about $6.3 billion from $14.6 billion over the decade ending in 2009, in large part because of unauthorized downloading of music on the Internet, especially of new releases, which has left record labels disproportionately dependent on sales of older recordings in their catalogs.

“This is a life-threatening change for them, the legal equivalent of Internet technology,” said Kenneth J. Abdo, a lawyer who leads a termination rights working group for the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences and has filed claims for some of his clients, who include Kool and the Gang. As a result the four major record companies — Universal, Sony BMG, EMI and Warner — have made it clear that they will not relinquish recordings they consider their property without a fight.



can't have happen to a better group.
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