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Old 2011-08-17, 10:13   Link #23781
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'd say that Featherine is the embodiment of Narrative Causality. The law of storyline physics that dictate that shit goes the way it does to entertain the audience, causal justification coming second.
Yeah. But she kind of sucks at narrating. She couldn't even think of what killed Lambdadelta...

That was pretty funny, actually.
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Old 2011-08-17, 11:33   Link #23782
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah. But she kind of sucks at narrating. She couldn't even think of what killed Lambdadelta...

That was pretty funny, actually.
What?!? Lambdadelta DIES?!? She was my favorite character! Damn it Featherine, Lambdadelta was WAY cooler than you!
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Old 2011-08-17, 12:12   Link #23783
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
What?!? Lambdadelta DIES?!? She was my favorite character! Damn it Featherine, Lambdadelta was WAY cooler than you!
MUAHAHAHAAHAAAA!!

Yeah, Lambda's awesome. Even right before the fight that she knows she'll lose, she breaks the forth wall and asks for people to vote for her in the character popularity polls.
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Old 2011-08-17, 14:21   Link #23784
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Quote:
Yeah. But she kind of sucks at narrating. She couldn't even think of what killed Lambdadelta...

That was pretty funny, actually.
I didn't say she represented Narrating, I said she represents the causality of narrative. She's basically the force that makes sure the audience is impressed. And Auto-killing Lambda was an impressive demonstration of her power. If she killed Lambda in a way that needed an explanation, her power wouldn't be so easy to determine.
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Old 2011-08-17, 16:19   Link #23785
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
MUAHAHAHAAHAAAA!!

Yeah, Lambda's awesome. Even right before the fight that she knows she'll lose, she breaks the forth wall and asks for people to vote for her in the character popularity polls.
I can't speak for the scene since I haven't seen it but, are you sure it was really a 4th wall break and not something like ''To all the theatregoer witches out there, please vote me as the most super*pop*cute witch ever!'' or something like that?

Or did she go
''to everyone who bought the game, please vote for me in Ryukishi's character poll!''
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Old 2011-08-17, 17:24   Link #23786
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ha, and what is there to suggest they represent actual people? We already have several Meta-World characters that don't represent any real people, why would these two be different?
Because I had the feeling that Bernkastel was some allusive metaphor towards us and that there were certain events in the story that were supposed to be allusions to the real world, such as Beatrice's death possibly being an allusion to BT's. Furthermore, most good stories tend to have a snippet of the real world in them and some of them are often social commentary, otherwise they would be completely unrelatable. So, please don't laugh, I'm asking a perfectly legitimate question.

Anyways, I believe that Ikuko and Featherine represent subjective truth as Ikuko likes to hear other people's intrepretations of her stories and Featherine likes to hear her own truths spoken through other people's mouths
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Old 2011-08-17, 20:08   Link #23787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I can't speak for the scene since I haven't seen it but, are you sure it was really a 4th wall break and not something like ''To all the theatregoer witches out there, please vote me as the most super*pop*cute witch ever!'' or something like that?

Or did she go
''to everyone who bought the game, please vote for me in Ryukishi's character poll!''
Well, basically we are the theatregoing witches.
And in the end it is at least a 4th wall break because she actually admits that what is happening right now is a play that is conducted for the witches. So the part that is directed towards us would actually be something like a 5th or 6th wall break in Umineko.

And it was the time when they launched another poll on the website if I remember correctly...so it was aimed towards us.

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Because I had the feeling that Bernkastel was some allusive metaphor towards us and that there were certain events in the story that were supposed to be allusions to the real world, such as Beatrice's death possibly being an allusion to BT's. Furthermore, most good stories tend to have a snippet of the real world in them and some of them are often social commentary, otherwise they would be completely unrelatable. So, please don't laugh, I'm asking a perfectly legitimate question.

Anyways, I believe that Ikuko and Featherine represent subjective truth as Ikuko likes to hear other people's intrepretations of her stories and Featherine likes to hear her own truths spoken through other people's mouths
The day AT doesn't laugh about or sneer at somebody...
Sorry AT but it's how you come across...I'm not trying to judge...

And I wouldn't know wether we should actually link Umineko to Ryűkishi's private life. Not everything an author writes is inspired by his iminent relationships.
Umineko can be seen as a commentary on truth, dedication towards truth and love, how society treats truth...and so on. I don't know if he actually wanted to comment that far or if he just wanted to write a mystery story.
But I'm at least that far on ATs side with "Death of the Author" that I'd say we should exclude iminent personal experiences of the team from the analysis because anything regarding their ideas concerning those topics would be beyond analysis and thesis and reach towards actual conjecture.
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Old 2011-08-17, 21:12   Link #23788
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Well, it's more along like a game called Contact.

In Contact, you the player, using the DS, are treated as an actual person and talked to, and there's a bit of a good explanation on how you're communicating with the in-game players. So, while playing with the 4th wall, I wouldn't acknowledge that as outright breaking it.


Same with Lambda, we were set up to be the ''Theatregoing Witches'', in the story, so if she said something in that context, I don't think it's completely breaking the 4th wall.

But I could be wrong, and I'm just being nitpicky either way. I understand what you mean though, I guess the specifics were just important to me.
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Old 2011-08-17, 21:13   Link #23789
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I didn't say she represented Narrating, I said she represents the causality of narrative. She's basically the force that makes sure the audience is impressed. And Auto-killing Lambda was an impressive demonstration of her power. If she killed Lambda in a way that needed an explanation, her power wouldn't be so easy to determine.
Sorry, I didn't read close enough.

Anyway, I don't think what the two of us are saying is all that different. "Causality of narrative" and "fate" can be pretty synonymous.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Well, it's more along like a game called Contact.

In Contact, you the player, using the DS, are treated as an actual person and talked to, and there's a bit of a good explanation on how you're communicating with the in-game players. So, while playing with the 4th wall, I wouldn't acknowledge that as outright breaking it.


Same with Lambda, we were set up to be the ''Theatregoing Witches'', in the story, so if she said something in that context, I don't think it's completely breaking the 4th wall.

But I could be wrong, and I'm just being nitpicky either way. I understand what you mean though, I guess the specifics were just important to me.
Here's the lines (and my amateur translation). They are a complete non-sequitur from what happens before and after them.

Lambda:「……あんたたち!
(...Hey you guys!)
Lambda:最後の人気投票は私に入れなさいよ?!
(Vote for me in the final popularity contest!)
Lambda:最低でもトップ5よ?! いいわね?!」
(At worst the top 5! Got it!?)
Bern:「…………どこ見て言ってんのよ。」
(Who are you talking to?)

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-17 at 21:40.
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Old 2011-08-17, 21:36   Link #23790
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Okay, I acknowledge it, that is totally 4th wall breaking. That's awesome lol! Lambda is officially my favorite character.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-17 at 21:56.
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Old 2011-08-17, 22:17   Link #23791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Because I had the feeling that Bernkastel was some allusive metaphor towards us and that there were certain events in the story that were supposed to be allusions to the real world, such as Beatrice's death possibly being an allusion to BT's. Furthermore, most good stories tend to have a snippet of the real world in them and some of them are often social commentary, otherwise they would be completely unrelatable. So, please don't laugh, I'm asking a perfectly legitimate question.

Anyways, I believe that Ikuko and Featherine represent subjective truth as Ikuko likes to hear other people's intrepretations of her stories and Featherine likes to hear her own truths spoken through other people's mouths
I agree, I'm just saying that it's not a concrete rule, and there's really nothing forcing those two to represent something 'real'. Especially since every Meta-character seems to insist on representing a hundred things at once.

I'd say Bern represents assholes and Lambda represents bros.

Quote:
The day AT doesn't laugh about or sneer at somebody...
Sorry AT but it's how you come across...I'm not trying to judge...
Well, I am a witch.

Quote:
Sorry, I didn't read close enough.

Anyway, I don't think what the two of us are saying is all that different. "Causality of narrative" and "fate" can be pretty synonymous.
Eh, not really. Narrative Causality would apply even in stories that don't have predetermination in their universes (like Discworld), and Fate doesn't require that the world is a fictional construct.

Narrative of Causality is the idea that things metaphysically occur because it makes for an entertaining story. To use Discworld as an example now that I've mentioned it, soldiers would deliberately get themselves into impossible battles, knowing it ENSURES their victory, or a hero might relax in the face of danger, saying "Heroes don't die, they just sort of fade into the backround after their happy endings."
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Old 2011-08-18, 08:37   Link #23792
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Morever, fate and narrative causality or narrative necessity are relatively easily distinguished.

For example, a story might have a prophecy, and the prophecy might be viewed as fate; indeed, the story may progress in such a fashion that the prophecy indeed was fate, such as the myth of Oedipus. Oedipus is fated to kill his father and marry his mother, which he does, and the actions of the characters in the story to avoid this fate are futile.

However, this is somewhat different from the narrative necessity of the myth of Oedipus (though I confess, the Greeks may not have seen it that way). Narrative necessity means an event happens because it has to happen for the story to progress. For example, Han Solo has to be in the cantina in Star Wars because if he isn't, Obi-Wan Kenobi won't be able to find anyone willing to take him and Luke to Alderaan. A good story tries to make sense of its narrative necessity, of course; Han being in the Cantina makes perfect sense, and the Cantina even being there makes sense, because the movie establishes that Mos Eisley is a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" where a smuggler might hang out. It's not really "fate" (remember, fate sort of exists in Star Wars by way of the Force, but there's no indication Kenobi "sensed" there'd be an accommodating smuggler around).

Going back to Greek tragedy, the narrative necessity of Oedipus is actually that fate must happen. Fate in Greek myth is decreed by the gods and oracles; in an ancient Greek narrative, fate is a narrative device. That can make it hard to distinguish the two, of course. You ask "Why did Oedipus wind up killing his father totally by chance?" Well, the answer is that (1) he was fated to do so by the gods, and (2) if he doesn't do so at some convenient point during the story, the story doesn't flow well. So the writer of the story decides "okay, now Oedpius must meet his father in secret, then kill him." They now must provide a convenient reason why Oedipus would bump into a king out on the road, so the Riddle of the Sphinx is derived. The narrative is structured around making fate happen, but fate is actually a separate narrative device in this capacity.

The famous rule of thumb attributed to Chandler is that when you don't know what else to do, have a man with a gun burst in. That's not fate; that's narrative necessity in its purest form. We need a clue for the detective, and motivation to move forward in the plot. How do we get one? Some guy ambushes the detective, and conveniently has a matchbook on his corpse from the bad guy's bar. Why did he pick this particular moment? It's not destiny. It's just that this was the best point in the plot to do it. The worst writers to employ this tactic don't even care to justify it. But it works, as long as it holds your interest enough to get you to the next part of the story without thinking too hard about it.

Narrative causality, on the other hand, literally means "things happen this way because it's a story." For example, because Umineko is a story, we know that Battler is not going to die in the First Twilight unless the story has established a way to continue narrating while he's dead. If Battler were aware of this, he'd be breaking the fourth wall. Although there is some allowance for self-awareness without dismantling suspension of disbelief; for example, characters in the Scream franchise are aware that they're in a situation resembling a slasher film, and know that there are "rules" that these films follow which they try to make use of. Yet Scream is obviously not as wink-nudge-self-aware as Discworld, since the characters don't actually know they're in a slasher film, just that they're in a situation that deliberately feels like one. Many Discworld characters basically know they're in a book, though the nature of the series means you could be just as aware of the "rules" of narrative causality even if you weren't aware. Doesn't mean Granny Weatherwax isn't, though she sometimes tries to play innocent.
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Old 2011-08-18, 12:31   Link #23793
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I haven't been here for a while but my "someone is referring to Raymond Chandler go check to see if it's a positive thing and if so shoot the devilish creature" was tingling.

...I'll try to catch up with the serious discussion.
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:33   Link #23794
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This is just a thought after reading Renall's post, but wouldn't good narrative necessity be such that it is a result of the established characters and situation, so that questions like fate don't even come into question?

My example would be the Battler point you made. The fact that he never dies in the First Twilight could be seen as a result of narrative necessity, but couldn't it equally be seen as a result of the characters' wills? Such as, he's never killed because Yasu/Kyire/Rudolf etc. are the one's doing the killing and they wouldn't kill Battler, least of all first.

Just a thought, didn't have a specific point.
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:48   Link #23795
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
I haven't been here for a while but my "someone is referring to Raymond Chandler go check to see if it's a positive thing and if so shoot the devilish creature" was tingling.

...I'll try to catch up with the serious discussion.
You'll be glad to know that I am seriously pissed at Ryukishi. I'll tell you about it on AIM.

Quote:
This is just a thought after reading Renall's post, but wouldn't good narrative necessity be such that it is a result of the established characters and situation, so that questions like fate don't even come into question?

My example would be the Battler point you made. The fact that he never dies in the First Twilight could be seen as a result of narrative necessity, but couldn't it equally be seen as a result of the characters' wills? Such as, he's never killed because Yasu/Kyire/Rudolf etc. are the one's doing the killing and they wouldn't kill Battler, least of all first.

Just a thought, didn't have a specific point.
Basically. Narrative Causality is like a meta-supernatural device, in a weird way, though. A better example of Narrative Causality-without-much-justification in Umineko would be the Detective Authority. Erika can do all this bullshit and boss people around because she's the Detective. It's not magic that lets her do that, but the metaphysics of story.
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Old 2011-08-18, 15:22   Link #23796
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
This is just a thought after reading Renall's post, but wouldn't good narrative necessity be such that it is a result of the established characters and situation, so that questions like fate don't even come into question?

My example would be the Battler point you made. The fact that he never dies in the First Twilight could be seen as a result of narrative necessity, but couldn't it equally be seen as a result of the characters' wills? Such as, he's never killed because Yasu/Kyire/Rudolf etc. are the one's doing the killing and they wouldn't kill Battler, least of all first.
Yes. Narrative necessity holds no matter what; Battler simply can't die in the First Twilight unless there's a narrative method set up to allow that (like a new narrator, or Battler narrating from beyond the grave, or whatever).

The question is what happens when the reader asks "Why can't Battler die in the First Twilight?" If the story provides an answer, like "the culprit doesn't intend to kill Battler, and therefore he would never be chosen to be killed," then the reader is satisfied (especially if that was his or her theory which is later confirmed by the author). If there is no answer, and he simply doesn't die because he can't, it's bad writing, because you've laid bare that the only reason a story event happened is because it needed to happen.

Narrative Causality would be Battler wandering the halls after midnight playing a banjo and going "BOY, I SURE HOPE I DON'T GET RANDOMLY MURDERED" knowing full well that he won't be, because he's the hero and detective.
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Old 2011-08-18, 15:37   Link #23797
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-snip-
You have to admit, that'd be funny as hell.
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Old 2011-08-18, 15:37   Link #23798
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[16:30] auratwilight: Actually I think I could roll with Yasu having MPD if every Ushiromiya had it
[16:30] auratwilight: like a fucking genetic psychological disorder
[16:31] haguileholmes: that wouldn't be ignoring psychology anymore. It would be flipping psychology off while screaming FUUUUUUCK YOOOOU
[16:31] haguileholmes: and I'd be totally cool with it because of that
[16:31] auratwilight: yea
[16:31] auratwilight: Beatrice 2 has a split personality that thinks it's Beatrice I, validating Kinzo's delusions
[16:31] auratwilight: Kinzo/Goldsmith
[16:32] auratwilight: Krauss/Super Krauss
[16:32] auratwilight: Eva/Evatrice
[16:32] auratwilight: Rudolf has a split personality that loves Asumu and one that loves Kyrie, meaning HE DIDN'T KNOW he did the baby switch
[16:32] auratwilight: Rosa/Black Witch
[16:32] auratwilight: Jessica/Jessie
[16:32] auratwilight: George/THE CULPRIT
[16:32] auratwilight: Battler/Meta Battler
[16:32] auratwilight: Maria/PSYCHO Maria
[16:32] auratwilight: Ange/ THE CULRPIT
[16:33] auratwilight: and it turns out Kinzo chose their spouses on the basis of MPD
[16:33] auratwilight: Natsuhi/MF19YO
[16:33] auratwilight: Hideyoshi/Gohda
[16:33] auratwilight: Kyrie/ASUMU
[16:34] auratwilight: oh my god that would be glorious
[16:34] haguileholmes: It really would
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Old 2011-08-18, 22:06   Link #23799
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Old 2011-08-18, 23:16   Link #23800
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Quote:
Is it true that Yasu hates his/her own existence?

And, if it's true, since when Yasu started to hate him/her/self:

- Throughout all of his/her life?

- 1983: When s/he learned that Battler completely forgot about Shannon?

- 1986: Or when Battler returned to Rokkenjima?
Yasu pretty much hates her own existence, yea. It pretty much hit when she learned her parentage and how she was dumped off a cliff and all that stuff.
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