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Old 2011-08-17, 13:53   Link #301
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Another was the culture factor. The Zentradi was split into two groups in the man side alone: one believed the culture of SDF could help them and the other side believed it would poison them. Both were at war against each other.

The SDF itself was in confusion. At one point, they wanted to merely head back to Earth. Then they decided halfway through to hold an all-out war with the Zentradi. Then, AFTER they landed on Earth, the Zentradi wiped out all human life on the planet, and THAT was when they decided to create peace between their races. After ALL of that, they wanted to create peace with a violent race like the Zentradi, just because one of their men married a Zentradi. Now tell me how any of THAT makes sense?
I'm not sure you really understood the show...

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
A lot of old animes, when you rewatch them, most of the time, they don't make sense anymore. You THOUGHT you understood it when you were little, then you rewatch and realize there are HUGE plotholes. And SDF was one of those animes.
You realize I'm one of the main members of Galaxy Network, right? As such, you realize I've been watching and rewatching AND REWATCHING the show over and over AND OVER again for the last couple of years, right?

Believe me, it makes sense (for the most part...there's no way a city that size could fit inside the Macross, and why didn't the humans just broadcast porn if they wanted to freak the Zents out?). It's your understanding of it that's off.
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Old 2011-08-17, 14:10   Link #302
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Old 2011-08-17, 14:25   Link #303
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Yes, fitting a city into a ship that transforms. You realize that when SDF first transformed, the entire city was destroyed. Why didn't they think of that when they built the city? Then they wouldn't have had to use so many materials to fix it.
It was never intended to transform in the first place. It turned out that was the only way to fire the main cannon. Later, they did manage to fix the city so that transformations were painless.

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Not only that, but the "pinpoint barrier?" Ugh...
Again, the best they could do with what they had. Even Claudia said it was small...

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And they kept falling into the Zentradi's traps. Even when someone warned them... they still did it. Hikaru is a good example of a LOT of those moments.
Okay, I got NO idea what you're talking about here...

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What made little sense to me was WHY the Macross arrived on Earth and how they built a city inside it when they knew nothing about the ship. They spent less time trying to understand the ship and more time judging the Zentradi. One thing that Focker said really made sense to the WHOLE series: "maybe they want something that's inside the ship we don't see?" You realize he was the only one who had a level head out of the whole crew?
Again, I don't know what you're talking about. They spent ten years rebuilding the ship, but yes, there were still a lot of mysteries. The Zentradi didn't want anything that was IN the ship, though...they wanted THE SHIP (and reaction weapons).

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Once again... for the 80s, it was a good story.
No doubt you think of the '80s as "old." What do you think of, say, lit from the 10th century?
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Old 2011-08-17, 15:00   Link #304
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@LMK

The things you are complaining about were outright stated in the first couple of episodes.
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Old 2011-08-17, 15:37   Link #305
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It was. Watch it all back at once. Not as it airs but as a whole. It is confusing as hell when you look outside of the triangle or the point of the war, as the characters constantly head in two different directions and never cross paths.
I.watch.it.all.the.time. In fact, I just finished my latest re-watch this Sunday, I see no confusion.

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One of the biggest questionable moments was why the Zentradi had never taken care of their fleet that decided to just attack without warning (I forgot that bastard's damn name, even though he cracked me up). They went for around 12 episodes just with him appearing and choosing to attack against his commander's wishes. Yet they didn't do anything about him.
Because Quamzin gets the job done. He was a dog of war, and was suspended for a long time, but let loose to raise havoc. Quamzin was to be reprimanded for many of his actions, but fortunately for him, he had the senses to obey his superiors at the right time to avoid certain punishment.

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Another was the culture factor. The Zentradi was split into two groups in the man side alone: one believed the culture of SDF could help them and the other side believed it would poison them. Both were at war against each other.
And how is that confusing? For that was the core of the plot.

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The SDF itself was in confusion. At one point, they wanted to merely head back to Earth. Then they decided halfway through to hold an all-out war with the Zentradi. Then, AFTER they landed on Earth, the Zentradi wiped out all human life on the planet, and THAT was when they decided to create peace between their races. After ALL of that, they wanted to create peace with a violent race like the Zentradi, just because one of their men married a Zentradi. Now tell me how any of THAT makes sense?
No, the SDF never wanted an all-out war against odds they could never hope to win. Most of SDF's actions was purely for the sake of self-defense.

Zentradi wiped out the planet as a psychological assault on the denizens of the SDF by Bodolzaa to coerce the remainder of humanity into assisting the Zentradi with their skills & technology. He figured SDF's 40,000 people would be enough for the task.

At the end of the war, Earth was in shambles, most of its water dried out, most of humanity perished, the SDF itself was in dire needs for repairs and less than a million humans were scattered throughout the tattered planet. At the same time, there was still a fully functioning Zentradi fleet above Earth orbit, while Earth had next to no military power to resist such odds. In addition, the total Zentradi population dwarfed humanity by at least _insert large number here_ to 1. You tell me what other options, aside from peace, was viable?

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You talk all about Ranka with the Vajra... well, the entire SDF was just as fucked up in their ideals.
Again, it was agreed that her intent was good, her way of achieving it was flawed.


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Says the person who disregarded the Vajra creating peace with humanity in the end of Frontier.
Says the person who fabricates nonsense. Nobody disregarded the Vajra for co-existing with humanity. Everyone knows damn well it was the only option, the other being total annihilation of humanity.

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The Vajra did the same thing as the Zentradi and are SO alike the Zentradi: built for war, attack humanity, and are influenced by song, even if not in the same way.
Where the hell did you get the idea that the Vajra were built for war?

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So, once again, Ranka was the entire SDF combined. Her ideals were good but her ability to carry it out by herself, you have to admit, was very small. So, regardless of Sheryl helping Ranka, the fact she started it on her own makes Ranka the true heroine, because it took her doing what she did for Alto and the rest of Frontier to see the Vajra's true nature and finally realize their large misunderstanding.
Great... its now about Ranka again.

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I think we're getting off-topic. I think we should move this to a general discussion thread or something.
Then don't start.

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You THOUGHT you understood it when you were little, then you rewatch and realize there are HUGE plotholes.
I think its the reverse.

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And SDF was one of those animes.
No, just you.

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Last edited by Tak; 2011-08-17 at 16:08.
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Old 2011-08-17, 22:25   Link #306
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O___O

How the fudge is SDF a crap anime? I'm....shocked, considering it's waay better than Frontier.

And LOL, I agree with Tak...it's all about Ranka again. Fucking laughable.

Back on topic, come October, I hope we shall see MacF charas on the list, especially Sheryl. Just a tiny bump on her streak this is.
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Old 2011-08-17, 23:34   Link #307
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Yet, in the last few episodes, he went completely against his forces and SDF to blow himself up, which destroyed Captain Global.
Erm...Captain Global didn't die.

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And yet, both male and female Zentradi had common ground, yet they hated how each one of them tried to control the other. But when you look at the full picture, didn't the Zentradi have a main commander too? So the only difference is that they're getting bossed around by a stronger male Zentradi. That's sexism.
There wasn't any kind of battle of the sexes going on in the series with the Zentradi, even over command...maybe you're mixing the series up with DYRL...?


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Hey, you're the one who said Frontier shouldn't be peaceful with the Vajra after all they'd done. Well, the Zentradi did so much worse before THEY created peace with Earth.
I actually agree with you here. Not sure about Tak, but I've definitely seen other people declare that the Vajra should've been wiped out completely...which would pretty much go against the worldview of Macross.

Only megalomaniacal AI pop singers get n mercy...for everyone else, the powers of love and culture can win through.

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Explained in Ep.4.

Small brains, built for war. Need an example, even Alto spoke it out for you: "is that a... weapon?"
But it turned out that he was wrong, yes?
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Old 2011-08-17, 23:40   Link #308
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I'd kind of like to chime in on this subject, but I also think this topic belongs in a different thread.
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Old 2011-08-18, 00:09   Link #309
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Before tempers flare out of control again, please discuss this in a calm manner...

LMK: are you sure you're not getting your Robotech mixed up with your Macross? (in reference to the end of SDFM)
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Old 2011-08-18, 00:12   Link #310
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According to Misa in the final episode, he sacrificed himself to save her. So since he never made a show again at the end of the series, everyone immediately assumed he'd died and that Misa took over commanding SDF-2 when it was built.
That was the Robotech ending.

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The Zentradi only wiped out Earth after SDF-1 left there, and it was meant to be a lesson to the humans. But there were survivors and they reached an agreement, but it wasn't exactly peace until years later. Up until that point, the Zentradi made the same actions as the Vajra, except they didn't start and get stopped, they carried it out till the end.
Oh ok, so why don't you tell me what humanity, stripped of its military and much of its resources, should do against a race that outnumbers you by a huge margin? And one with roflstompyouharhar fleet hovering above your head?

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Remember that male and females of the Zentradi did not coincide with each other nor agree with one another, which left them shocked when they saw female and male "microns" together. That was from both series AND DYRL.
But that was not a battle, just segregation, and it was necessary in order to maintain their military capacity.

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Yet, in the last few episodes, he went completely against his forces and SDF to blow himself up, which destroyed Captain Global.
Uh, there were no forces to back him up anymore. The Zentradi fleet above Earth orbit had aligned itself with UN SPACY and no longer hostile to Earth. Quamzin, who did not wish to align with the UN SPACY or shot by his superior simply chose the third way out, that is, to go into hiding. Not surprisingly, his stubborn personality ensured both sides to take him as a rogue. With little option left for him, Quamzin gathered all who could not adapt to life on Earth in a last ditch effort to preserve what they believed as the pride of Zentradi. That is, to fight & die in battle.

But Global lived, and initiated a sequence of events that would give us further Macross series.

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And yet, both male and female Zentradi had common ground, yet they hated how each one of them tried to control the other. But when you look at the full picture, didn't the Zentradi have a main commander too? So the only difference is that they're getting bossed around by a stronger male Zentradi. That's sexism.
Never happened in the main series, my dear.

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Yet, once again, they fell right into the Zentradi's traps. Mars was one of those examples. They didn't bother to scan the planet's surface UNTIL they were already in the trap. There's an example right there. If they wanted to protect themselves properly, explore all outcomes before taking such a large risk like that.
ROFL.

For your information, they did scan the planet, and found nothing. However, whether they did or did not scan is almost irrelevant. The SDF was never in a militarily advantageous position. Ever. Have you any idea how disgustingly easy it was for a mere fraction of the main Zentradi fleet to wipe out humanity? If not for the fact that the Zentradi wanted something, and were basically dicking around for 27 episode of the show, there was no way in hell for humanity to survive as long as it did.

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Hey, you're the one who said Frontier shouldn't be peaceful with the Vajra after all they'd done. Well, the Zentradi did so much worse before THEY created peace with Earth.
You are confused again. In the romance thread, we were discussing the mindset of the denizens of Frontier, and their collective anger toward the Vajra, not because I believe wiping them out that was a viable option, because it wasn't. Humanity made that mistake in the first Space War, it was smart for them not to repeat that same mistake in the Vajra war. These critters possibly outnumber even the Zentradi by a huge margin, and individually more powerful, I don't think wiping them out can be achieved.

Moreover, if you look from a different point of view, both the Vajra and Zentradi left humanity with very little choice but peace.

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Once again, who ELSE in Macross F actually desired to do what she did? No one. Not even Alto or Sheryl. Nor Ozma or Catherine. Not even Captain Wilder. She was left on her own. Only Brera saw her intents and decided to agree with her.
And her way of conducting it was bad. Do you get it? You can repeat this in a variety of ways, but my answer will always be the same: Her intends were good, her way of achieving it was bad.

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Small brains, built for war. Need an example, even Alto spoke it out for you: "is that a... weapon?"
Right, because Alto was a Vajra expert.

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Not entirely. They were still built for war.
Right, just because he said so.

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Ranka once again explained all of the Vajra's original intentions in the last episode.
And what did you think that was?


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I just don't want to get yelled at by senior members. So regardless, we had already slipped into this discussion when a single person started talking about SDF. And that wasn't me.
Bullshit. You posted this:

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Well, the original SDF also lacked a good storyline.
If you start a fight, then assume the responsibility.

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Last edited by Tak; 2011-08-18 at 00:23.
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Old 2011-08-18, 02:29   Link #311
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O___O

How the fudge is SDF a crap anime? I'm....shocked, considering it's waay better than Frontier.

And LOL, I agree with Tak...it's all about Ranka again. Fucking laughable.

Back on topic, come October, I hope we shall see MacF charas on the list, especially Sheryl. Just a tiny bump on her streak this is.
Indeed. She dropped out for one month in the last three years before, she'll be back up again.

And maybe it's my modern sensibilities radar pinging very hard, but I consider Frontier in total to be better than SDFM, although the non-conclusive ending to Frontier still drags it down a ton.
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Old 2011-08-18, 07:21   Link #312
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I watched both versions, so no. I'm not getting them mixed up. Robotech sucked, just for the very fact they renamed 90% of the characters.
Yeah, you are. The Captain died in Robotech, but survived in Macross.
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Old 2011-08-18, 07:35   Link #313
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I watched both versions, so no. I'm not getting them mixed up. Robotech sucked, just for the very fact they renamed 90% of the characters.
just because a dub renames a bunch of characters doesn't make it bad, what makes it a bad dub is that they butchered it.
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Old 2011-08-18, 07:43   Link #314
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Well, this is a nice salad of references between the original series, the Robotech version and DYRL, isn't it? Maybe the whole "multiple continuities" thing is catching on, eh?

It kinda gives me a headache, tho. And, honestly, there's no doubt in my mind that the original series still holds the high ground, when compared to Frontier. To say that it had a bad storyline is kinda dumbfounding, to me.

And LMK, please, go watch the series again, if you still want to keep discussing it, as you are quite confounding it with Robotech and DYRL. Just a heads up, you know?
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Old 2011-08-18, 07:43   Link #315
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Yeah...Robotech was a whole 'nother ball game..
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Old 2011-08-18, 08:12   Link #316
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It kinda gives me a headache, tho. And, honestly, there's no doubt in my mind that the original series still holds the high ground, when compared to Frontier. To say that it had a bad storyline is kinda dumbfounding, to me.
I dunno...maybe it's just nostalgia talking, but the original series (along with DYRL and Flashback*) seem...well... classier than any of the follow-ups. Not that any of them are bad, really...I like them all...but the original, for all its flaws (and they are numerous, especially for the outsourced animation episodes) seems to me to have more heart, energy, and truth to it.

*To me, all the '80s Macross stories kinda/sorta fit together...SDFM TV is the ice cream, DYRL is the hot fudge sauce, and FB2012 is the cherry on top. And all the short stories, novels, and audio dramas are the nuts and sprinkles.
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Old 2011-08-18, 08:39   Link #317
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I could not agree more about the classy part. But, if it was just the nostalgia factor and not the quality itself, the frequent (and most recent) rewatching would kinda make a bad product obvious, no? Kinda like what happened to me and Transformers, last year - what a load of crappy, sappy and poorly animated episodes G1 had... The movie still holds itself very well, tho.

Quality is good quality. IMHO, of course.
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Old 2011-08-18, 18:58   Link #318
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I could not agree more about the classy part. But, if it was just the nostalgia factor and not the quality itself, the frequent (and most recent) rewatching would kinda make a bad product obvious, no? Kinda like what happened to me and Transformers, last year - what a load of crappy, sappy and poorly animated episodes G1 had... The movie still holds itself very well, tho.

Quality is good quality. IMHO, of course.
SDFM still manages to look okay, but, yeah, there are worlds between the animation of then and now.
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Old 2011-10-03, 14:35   Link #319
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Old 2011-10-04, 21:09   Link #320
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They should animate Macross the First for the anniversary.
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