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Old 2011-04-05, 03:15   Link #941
j0x
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Code:
--tune animation
Code:
--ref {Double if >1 else 1}
tune animation doubles the reference frames so that tells you anime/cartoons/cel-shaded loves a lot of reference frames

and about the giant file sizes now a days its because fansubbers use very quality oriented values for CRF im seeing CRF values of 13-18 as the ranges now for HD resolutions, i think CRF values of 20-23 will be better now a days as ive read somewhere that with higher resolution you could get away with higher CRF values
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Old 2011-04-05, 04:12   Link #942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
What happened guys? I thought we educated the noobs and run out the trolls years ago?
Fansubbing is dead, there's no point in trying to improve it anymore. Also, it's effort, and I don't watch anime myself anymore so I don't really give a fuck. Even if I did, pretty much everyone who's still fansubbing is basically 14 years old and/or dumb, and trying to educate that kind of people isn't on my list of favorite tasks.

Re: bigger filesizes, I think the simple explanation is that people got used to better quality. If you look at the 230MB 720p encodes from a few years ago they really don't look all that good and most of them are really fucking oversmoothed as well (since everything was a reencode of a reencode back then).


Edit: the group you called out is one of those groups who seem to consist mostly of 14-year-olds. I know maybe 5-6 competent encoders that are still active, the rest are pretty bad. Some of the "pretty bad" ones know how to use an appropriate x264 preset, but many do not.
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Old 2011-04-05, 04:15   Link #943
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
And even when it comes to b-frames , isn't using b_adapt=2 and a low amount of b-frames preffered over b_adapt=1 and 16 b frames?

If you think that's bad it makes me wonder if you've seen this thread , even if it's a few years old.

What I really wonder is what's the concencus on mbtree?I see some releases that use it,others that don't,some groups will even switch back and forth and it really does seem to impact the file size.
That was funny. It must be a troll encode because I've never seen anything done so wrong in all my years of encoding.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
What seems really stupid dto me is taking a dvd source and encoding it at 5.1 with 16 reference frames. At most you need 4 ref frames. I did a 1 gig encode of an old vhs feature that was 55 minutes in length at 4.1 with 4 ref frames with the ac3 audio from the vhs to dvd transfer that I did myself. The originial transfer was 4 gigs at about 9 megs per second. It came out excellent.
Well let me put it another way. Is there a reason not to use 16 reference frames for SD material? SD takes less time to encode, therefore you can automatically afford to use better settings than you may do with HD. Also let's not forget that a large number of reference frames is almost a free upgrade. The only cost to the leecher is extra ram usage.


Also how do you guys feel about keyint infinite? I had a specific problem a few years back when I was encoding some Street Fighter vids I captured from an emulator. It looked pretty much perfect but partway through the video there was a notable shift in quality, where a new GOP was forced and an I-frame was inserted since keyint XXX was reached. The only way round this was to put in the largest keyint I was allowed. The video was 2 or 3 minutes long and the background stayed mostly the same but it would pan left and right and sometimes up, all of which was easily predicted by x264 and wasn't a large enough change to be considered a scene change and therefore a smart place to insert an I-frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Fansubbing is dead, there's no point in trying to improve it anymore. Also, it's effort, and I don't watch anime myself anymore so I don't really give a fuck. Even if I did, pretty much everyone who's still fansubbing is basically 14 years old and/or dumb, and trying to educate that kind of people isn't on my list of favorite tasks.

Re: bigger filesizes, I think the simple explanation is that people got used to better quality. If you look at the 230MB 720p encodes from a few years ago they really don't look all that good and most of them are really fucking oversmoothed as well (since everything was a reencode of a reencode back then).
You pretty much confirmed what I suspected. It makes me want to get back into the scene and try to do something but it's one man against a million. A lost cause as you suggest.
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Old 2011-04-05, 07:37   Link #944
neshru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
I am most pleased to see many more original series compared to cookie cutter ecchi and harem that was rampant a few years back.
I don't know about that...

About the file size issue, I'm no encoder, but I still find a lot of 720p releases to have a relatively acceptable file size. When I see a 400-500 Mb encode it's generally an episode with a lot of motion.
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Old 2011-04-05, 16:06   Link #945
Desbreko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
What seems really stupid dto me is taking a dvd source and encoding it at 5.1 with 16 reference frames.
Wut? When using 16 refs on a 720x480 encode, x264 sets it as level 4.0. How are people managing level 5.1 with DVD rips, assuming they aren't upscaling?

Re: mbtree, it seems like people disable it to preserve dithering and grain while using low aq-strength and psy settings. I find this kind of dumb, because higher aq and psy have always been much more efficient for that in my experience.
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Old 2011-04-07, 00:29   Link #946
Daiz
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Back in 2006 basically all encodes were still re-encodes of crappy Share/PD raws and basically all of them look terribad at the 233-250MB size they have. Nowadays with Transport Stream sources people simply expect better.
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:17   Link #947
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I have a great idea-just edit the transport streams to remove the commercials and then sub them-super quality and huge size-perfect.
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Old 2011-04-08, 15:46   Link #948
Daiz
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Yes, I'm sure everyone would just love watching hard telecined video with filesizes at 2-4 GB per episode. Besides, some people have already done that (as a joke, but nevertheless).
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Old 2011-07-08, 18:16   Link #949
Starks
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Can somebody explain 10-bit color to me?

Is it supposed to be next big thing for fansub encoding?
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Old 2011-07-09, 05:44   Link #950
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starks View Post
Is it supposed to be next big thing for fansub encoding?
Wouldn't that be pointless? Since most people only have a 8-bit monitor anyway...
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Old 2011-07-09, 06:06   Link #951
jfs
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And most sources are 8 bit precision only.

The point is to improve quality and compression by minimizing the quantization error. I still don't get the maths behind it, but apparently it can work wonders on at least some sources.
So, 10 bit lets the encoder make a more accurate representation of the source material in less bits.
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Old 2011-07-09, 07:23   Link #952
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
And most sources are 8 bit precision only.

The point is to improve quality and compression by minimizing the quantization error. I still don't get the maths behind it, but apparently it can work wonders on at least some sources.
So, 10 bit lets the encoder make a more accurate representation of the source material in less bits.
Someone can correct me if I'm totally off base, but thinking of it this way, there's a much larger "target space" which enables optimization algorithms to function more efficiently. Like, you're trying to pack the same info into 10 bits as 8 bits, you have more wiggle room in the 10 bit box, and that lets quantization and the trellis and/or cabac run time encoding be more efficient.

That's why even though the source is only 8 bit, upsampling it to 10 bit and then compression is almost always more efficient theoretically.
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Last edited by Quarkboy; 2011-07-09 at 07:40.
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Old 2011-07-09, 07:27   Link #953
cyberbeing
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I'll re-quote what Dark Shikari said on the matter 8 months ago (emphasis mine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari
1. ~15% better compression *of typical 8-bit content*. In terms of "where this comes from", this gain is split roughly evenly (at typical bitrates) between:
a. Higher precision output (in reality, this would be dithered down, but you'd still get the visual benefit).
b. Higher precision intermediate values in (en|de)coding a frame.
c. Higher precision reference frames.

2. Almost complete elimination of banding artifacts.
Significantly smaller file sizes + elimination of banding artifacts caused by encoding, does make 10-bit x264 the next big thing for anime encoding.

The downside is portability (requires an up-to-date software decoder + currently no hardware decode support) and speed (marginal perf hit from decoding at higher-precision + dither down). Basically this means dropping support for people who depend on hardware set-top boxes, and those who desire the ability to playback HD encodes on underpowered Atom/Via netbooks. Anybody with a modern 2GHz+ dual-core Win/Linux/Mac computer from the past 5 years should see no significant change in terms of content they are capable of playing back, as long as their software is up to date.

I'm sure leechers will rage when the initial switch happens, just like the move to from AVI -> MKV and XVID -> H264, but the quality benefit will be worth it in the long run.
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Old 2011-07-09, 07:37   Link #954
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I'll re-quote what Dark Shikari said on the matter 8 months ago (emphasis mine).



Significantly smaller file sizes + elimination of banding artifacts caused by encoding, does make 10-bit x264 the next big thing for anime encoding.

The downside is portability (requires an up-to-date software decoder + currently no hardware decode support) and speed (marginal perf hit from decoding at higher-precision + dither down). Basically this means dropping support for people who depend on hardware set-top boxes, and those who desire the ability to playback HD encodes on underpowered Atom/Via netbooks. Anybody with a modern 2GHz+ dual-core Win/Linux/Mac computer from the past 5 years should see no significant change in terms of content they are capable of playing back, as long as their software is up to date.

I'm sure leechers will rage when the initial switch happens, just like the move to from AVI -> MKV and XVID -> H264, but the quality benefit will be worth it in the long run.
Wouldn't the elimination of banding artifacts only work if the source didn't already have them?

Unless you're getting 10bit HDCAM(-SR) sources from the studios, all you'll be getting is 8bit .ts streams that are banded to heck and back anyway.

Perhaps you could add in a dithering/antibanding filter before compression, but all 10bit would do is prevent EXTRA banding artifacts from compression... It doesn't get rid of the ones already there.

the rest of DarkShikari's points are all... somewhat obvious from what 10bit precision means. The less obvious effect of actually producing higher quality at smaller file sizes is more opaque (which I addressed above my concept of it). Or in other words, answering the question "why does higher precision decoding/keyframes help compression so much that it offsets the extra two bits everywhere?" is the tricky part.
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Old 2011-07-09, 08:19   Link #955
cyberbeing
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Correct, encoding with 10-bit x264 means you won't produce extra banding beyond what was already in the source, and opens the door to dithering pre-processing actually being retained in the encode without an insane bitrate. I wasn't replying to you directly, just the thread in general with something I had posted in the playback fourm. Below were the preliminary results Dark Shikari posted, at which point 10-bit x264 was still being decoded to 8-bit without dithering. Things have likely improved with all the 10-bit related commits since then.

Source
Denoise/Deband -> 8-bit x264
Denoise/Deband -> 10-bit x264

The technicalities of why this all works goes over my head, but the basic idea was moving from 8-bit -> 10-bit eliminates something like 95% 75% of the error x264 accumulates while encoding, at which point high bit-depths >=11-bit show insignificant gains.

Edit: Why does 10-bit save bandwidth (even when content is 8-bit)? [pdf link]

Edit2: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/65953 (Steins;Gate Blu-ray NCED 01:30 | 23.5MB 10-bit x264 CRF=15.0 vs. 38.9MB 8-bit x264 CRF=15.0)
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Last edited by cyberbeing; 2011-07-13 at 03:35. Reason: see below + added addtional 8-bit vs 10-bit comparison
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Old 2011-07-09, 13:56   Link #956
hulahula32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
You pretty much confirmed what I suspected. It makes me want to get back into the scene and try to do something but it's one man against a million. A lost cause as you suggest.
Stop caring. Just do what you want and what you have fun with. Forget about the other countless encoders and seemingly endless number of new fail groups that pop up everyday. Do whatever level of effort/quality that lets you have fun.

I know TheFluff also blogged about the dos and don'ts of fansubbing and probably the most important was, don't do it if you aren't having fun.
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Old 2011-07-11, 12:35   Link #957
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Correct, encoding with 10-bit x264 means you won't produce extra banding beyond what was already in the source, and opens the door to dithering pre-processing actually being retained in the encode without an insane bitrate. I wasn't replying to you directly, just the thread in general with something I had posted in the playback fourm. Below were the preliminary results Dark Shikari posted, at which point 10-bit x264 was still being decoded to 8-bit without dithering. Things have likely improved with all the 10-bit related commits since then.

Source
Denoise/Deband -> 8-bit x264
Denoise/Deband -> 10-bit x264

The technicalities of why this all works goes over my head, but the basic idea was moving from 8-bit -> 10-bit eliminates something like 95% of the error x264 accumulates while encoding, at which point high bit-depths >=11-bit show insignificant gains.

Edit: Why does 10-bit save bandwidth (even when content is 8-bit)? [pdf link]
Each extra bit of intermediate precision halves the error caused by intermediate rounding.

So 10-bit removes 75% of the loss from intermediate rounding (vs 8-bit).

Higher bit depth would be better, of course, but higher than 10 means that it's no longer possible to use 16-bit intermediates in the motion compensation filter. Since 30-40%+ of decoding time is spent there, halving the speed of motion compensation would massively impact decoding CPU time, and since we've already eliminated 75% of the loss, it's just not worth it.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 2011-07-11 at 12:49.
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Old 2011-08-19, 12:15   Link #958
zrdb
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10 bit h264 encoding effectively obsoletes my Popcorn Hour A210-I refuse to use an htpc-what the fuck am I supposed to do?
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Old 2011-08-20, 06:59   Link #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
10 bit h264 encoding effectively obsoletes my Popcorn Hour A210-I refuse to use an htpc-what the fuck am I supposed to do?
TWO choices:

0 - feel bad
1 - don't refuse to use an htpc
2 - buy a real 10bits H264 capable Popcorn
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Old 2011-08-20, 07:48   Link #960
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I think it should be obvious to anyone that there will never be hardware devices that play 10bit h264 with the exceptions of essentially HTPCs that are really running ffdshow.

I.e. no one is going to produce a chip that decodes 10bit. There's zero market for it.

I suppose it's possible that the PS3/Xbox could play them, since they use software decoding, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

The only reason h.264 decoding is so ubiquitous is because of the blu-ray and i-products standards, and non of those play or are compatible with 10bit.
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