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Old 2011-04-18, 11:00   Link #21
Pocari_Sweat
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Episode 3 caused a schism in the fandom alongside the DVD/Blu-ray spike because there was a change in direction in the show. Instead of the two initial episodes, which set the series up as a slice of life, coming of age drama, episode 3 went off on a bit of a tangent in that it was quite comedic with quite a bit of fanservice. I'll admit that was I was part of the debate regarding the direction change.

In summary, one side of fans welcomed the change, whilst the other side did not. Either way, the episode caught the attention of the anime community and caused DVD/Blu-ray preorders to spike. At the very least, P.A. Works' publicity stunt worked and what remained a fairly unappreciated show given its production effort is now suddenly with the top dogs of the season.

If you count Western fans, I think Tiger & Bunny will most likely be the season's favorite. I'm still somewhat surprised at how well AnoHana is doing, but nonetheless, I have a feeling it won't keep up. Steins;Gate has potential, but we will have to see whether that potential unfolds in its latter episode. Psychological thrillers tend to be fairly tame at the start and then the good ones tend to unload their cargo during the middle-later eps.
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Old 2011-04-18, 12:02   Link #22
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I think most of the people were upset at such a worthless criminal being forgiven for a line he wrote during a sex scene. The light hearted comedy has been in IroHana since episode one.
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:40   Link #23
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Sigh, a few months later and I read my old post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Not that excited over them, but True Tears was a subtle anime in places, something anime horrifically lacks.

They haven't truly moved me with anything, but I think they could go in that direction. Clearly, they have excellent music/animation that helps give you atmosphere. They really should have done Yosuga no Sora. Now that's a show that needed subtlety

But I can trust them to not produce effortless garbage-- I can't say the same about well... other studios.

They will either make or break with Hana Saku Iroha, though it does seem like make is more likely.
It's pretty despairing, since I joked about YnS. Because apparently they get beaten by fucking Feel. in the music department. A softcore porn has a better soundtrack than Iroha. :// Though admittingly it was a pretty strong OST anyways.

On a serious note, PA has scored 1/4 to me after all this talk told me to check out True Tears. That really showed me why people give a damn about them. The lack of consistency in their shows does kill me, coming with tons of good cancelled out by tons of bad. They kinda reminds me of my local NBA Basketball team. I want to see them succeed, but all I end up saying is "come on mang!" Much talent, but also terrible, terrible decision making.

In other words, they should learn to play D. Nothing makes me more nervous than PA in the 4th quarter.

I really hope Hana Saku can pull through.

Trivia: It stands for Progressive Animation Works. But for all their shortcomings, I'd say they can easily replace Kyoani at this point in terms of visuals. :]
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:28   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Much talent, but also terrible, terrible decision making.
Constantly bringing back Mari Okada to write their shows is holding them back, yeah.

PA Works main strength is that they can produce some pretty kick ass looking shows, but over their 4 shows, the writing had been a problem. It's not necessarily awful, but it's so inconsistent (or in Angel Beats! case, confused) and that's thanks to just getting the same writer over and over again.

Get someone different. Someone who can write as well as you can draw, PA Works.

As for the music, I disagree. Iroha's music had been pretty good, but comparing it with YnS is unfair, since YnS as you said is so damn strong.

In every technical aspect, be it animation, backgrounds, vocal talent or music, Hanasaku Iroha stands from above average to great, but the writing leaves much to be desired at times, though I think it's still pretty entertaining. The last 2 months had been pretty weak, except for episode 18 imo, when compared to the first half.

Still, even though I've been somewhat burned a bit with it, Hanasaku Iroha remains a pretty fun show, though perhaps one that needed a bit more focus with it's second half. I might be strange to hear this coming from the odd ball who actually loved episode 7, but the show should have spent less time with side stories so late into the show.
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:38   Link #25
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People attribute the problems of PA works too much the writers. I actually think it's much more of a directorial issue, they can't seem to get a solid director over the span of an entire series. Not that the writers can't do better, but a director is supposed to have a lot more say in it.
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Old 2011-08-20, 16:32   Link #26
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I don't think that Okada is the problem.

True Tears was very well-written, in my view.

Hanasaku Iroha has had issues with its writing, to be sure, but I think it goes back to the old saying of "Too many cooks spoil the broth".

HSI simply has too many writers on its writing staff, each with their own idea of what the show should be like, and that's why it suffers a fair bit from inconsistency.

If Okada was personally writing every episode of HSI herself (as opposed to just doing the "series composition" and writing some episodes), I think it would be a fair bit better. Far from perfect, but better.
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Old 2011-08-20, 16:34   Link #27
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I'd say Okada is actually what's holding them together at this point.

But yea, it's not just the writers; other stuff needs to keep each part in check. Ano Hana worked thanks to the directors and whoever the hell was editing just to keep her from her more umm... stranger tendencies.

I seriously think she's carrying everything though-- me thinks Ohana from HSI is becoming a self insert. A somewhat competent person stuck in a sea of fail.
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Old 2011-08-20, 18:03   Link #28
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I think Angel Beats both illustrates the studios strengths and weaknesses.

Fine individual elements, but something lacking in the writing/directing to bring the whole thing together.

I really liked Angel Beats, but it's pacing was all over the place. Probably because it got the episode count cut but still...
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Old 2011-08-20, 18:57   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
HSI simply has too many writers on its writing staff, each with their own idea of what the show should be like, and that's why it suffers a fair bit from inconsistency.
Nevertheless, the person in charge of series composition is supposed to resolve stylistic inconsistencies and rewrite scripts where necessary. It's true that many writers are involved with Hanasaku Iroha (work has been primarily split between four people), but that's the norm for both anime and live action TV. Even True Tears was penned by three people alternating each episode (Mari Okada -> Junji Nishimura -> Mayumi Morita).

Lack of consistency points toward either poor planning or editing on Okada's part.

Quote:
Ano Hana worked thanks to the directors and whoever the hell was editing just to keep her from her more umm... stranger tendencies.
Judging by interviews, Okada's definitely more influential these days. Producers are handing her more creative control (i.e. on Kuroshitsuji, she wrote as instructed, but on Kuroshitsuji II, they let her develop the story/characters the way she wanted), so it's little surprise that the quirkier/dirtier elements are appearing more often. That's what happens when someone becomes an industry star.

Quote:
I actually think it's much more of a directorial issue, they can't seem to get a solid director over the span of an entire series. Not that the writers can't do better, but a director is supposed to have a lot more say in it.
They're working with veteran directors.

A director bears some responsibility for script development (in the way that a company CEO bears responsibility for what individual managers do), but his/her main job is to oversee the storyboarding and production processes.
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Old 2011-08-21, 23:31   Link #30
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Sigh why did this thread get necro'ed. I was trying to forget the embarrassment of creating it

Eh, at this point, True Tears is the only excellent piece of work that P A has created. Not sure I'm supposed to credit that to the studio itself, Okada, director or whatever, but at this point I'm not going to say it's the studio because they sorta didn't achieve potential in 3 out of 4 works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon Wing
Ano Hana worked thanks to the directors and whoever the hell was editing just to keep her from her more umm... stranger tendencies.
Lol. I'm going to assume you're referring to Okada's apparent men hating attitude recently and crossdressing antics


I don't know at this point. To me they have the best animation on the TV side of things but are ruined by poor pacing and consistency. That's gotta be a directorial or series composition fault and not the animation staff.
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Old 2011-08-22, 00:08   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
As for the music, I disagree. Iroha's music had been pretty good, but comparing it with YnS is unfair, since YnS as you said is so damn strong.
Wait, I missed this...

I won't even go bash the emo-style OP much, because even though the first one was consistent ear rape, let's talk about the BGM...

Oh wait, there's nothing to talk about the BGM. It's not even there half the time. The greatest weakness of its filler episodes is that it's devoid of music, making the atmosphere absolutely dry. And when they do have it, it's the same few tunes-- extremely repetitious.

Incidentally the last episode had some more, but... still, I can't see (or really hear) anything of significance.

I haven't seen that much anime where the sound is that lacking with dead silence. Incidentally, it's the weaker episodes that do this more.

And this is why I used Yosuga no Sora, as an example of good use of BGM. But even if we don't compare it to that, that's probably the greatest difference between True Tears and Hana Saku Iroha if we just count atmosphere. And there's Angel Beats...
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Old 2011-08-22, 04:23   Link #32
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I'm still glad that the sales of Hanasaku Iroha seem to be good enough so that while it hasn't been a critical success it won't end up a commercial disaster.

Was the head of P.A works ever asked if the studio will always do anime originals?

Because I'm got quite a few Mangas in mind that could use their godly animation and as long as you follow the source people wouldn't complain about the plot.

PS:I actually really like Hanasaku Iroha
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Old 2011-08-22, 04:48   Link #33
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I think they're definitely capable of doing adaptations. (Strangely enough, True Tears is a VN but the anime has nothing to do with it. So odd...)

But yea, until they can get it together, doing some adaptations would help a lot. I just get the feeling that the series aren't adequately planned and they kinda winged it in a really rushed fashion, Hana Iro and especially Angel Beats felt like this. The later to the point where I was like thinking not even the writer knew what was going on.
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Old 2011-08-22, 05:09   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I think they're definitely capable of doing adaptations. (Strangely enough, True Tears is a VN but the anime has nothing to do with it. So odd...)

But yea, until they can get it together, doing some adaptations would help a lot. I just get the feeling that the series aren't adequately planned and they kinda winged it in a really rushed fashion, Hana Iro and especially Angel Beats felt like this. The later to the point where I was like thinking not even the writer knew what was going on.

And Canaan was originaly presented as adaptation of the game "428" until it was revealed it would be completely original story.

I'm going to repeat some things I said earlier in this thread:I find it ironic that Angel beats incarnates what's supposed to be the problems with PA works when none of the major staff behind it were involved in any other animes from PA works.
I'll quote applejuice's blog here:"The script Maeda prepared was not 1-cour, or 2-cour in amount it was....6-COUR"

I already think that letting someone who's never written for anime (which is different from visual novels) is risky but adapting his 6 cour script in a 1 cour anime?That seems crazy to me.
And these decision came from Aniplex's producer (sorry can't remember the name) rather than anyone at PA works.
I really consider PA works to have been "hired guns" on angel beats and contributed there animation talent,nothing more (kinda like the professor layton movie)
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Old 2011-08-22, 07:50   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I'm still glad that the sales of Hanasaku Iroha seem to be good enough so that while it hasn't been a critical success it won't end up a commercial disaster.
IIRC, HSI Volume 1 has sold over 10k DVDs/Bluray, so that's definitely a commercial success imo. Also, HSI characters raped Japan Saimoe Preliminary rounds with 3 characters going through the main stages.

Quote:
Because I'm got quite a few Mangas in mind that could use their godly animation and as long as you follow the source people wouldn't complain about the plot.
This is a good point. Perhaps P A should take an adaptation route so they don't "fail" so much with pacing and consistently but still maintain their excellent animation quality. Still going to need a good director/series composer to make sure they adapt it well though.

Quote:
And Canaan was originaly presented as adaptation of the game "428" until it was revealed it would be completely original story.
I heard that it was the sequel to that Type-Moon game, so in a way it's an original story and in a way it's not. But hey, at least it's MUCH better than DEEN's adaptation of Type-Moon's work (See UBW )

Quote:
PS:I actually really like Hanasaku Iroha
I actually like it too (though probably not as much as you), but I'm just more bummed that it did not reach the potential I would like to have seen. The first two episodes and the Satsuki/Tokyo arc really showed how good HSI can be if it tries.
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Old 2011-08-22, 13:08   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
And Canaan was originaly presented as adaptation of the game "428" until it was revealed it would be completely original story.

I'm going to repeat some things I said earlier in this thread:I find it ironic that Angel beats incarnates what's supposed to be the problems with PA works when none of the major staff behind it were involved in any other animes from PA works.
I'll quote applejuice's blog here:"The script Maeda prepared was not 1-cour, or 2-cour in amount it was....6-COUR"

I already think that letting someone who's never written for anime (which is different from visual novels) is risky but adapting his 6 cour script in a 1 cour anime?That seems crazy to me.
And these decision came from Aniplex's producer (sorry can't remember the name) rather than anyone at PA works.
I really consider PA works to have been "hired guns" on angel beats and contributed there animation talent,nothing more (kinda like the professor layton movie)
Well, the thing is that Angel Beats, despite the different writer really is indicative of their major problems-- starting too many threads within the time constraints. They don't seem to have a very detailed overall outline, or if they do, it's gotten messed up along the way.

I mean someone had to look at it and say "hey this is a good idea!" And somehow Hana Iro suffers from similar issues, which makes me think of a distinct lack of quality control somewhere on the line.

Arguably TT and Hana Iro have this too, but...

For all of her faults, Mari Okada's stories that I've seen tend to make a lot of logical sense and consistency. She generally seems to try very hard to avoid plot holes and seems to feel a need to have everything and everyone (no matter how irrelevant or unlikable) have a purpose and fit into the story. This kind of OCD leads to much good and bad, but at the very least, it's a story.

Although appreciative about Jun Maeda's work, I'm not really surprised AB! turned out like that. Well, lack of experience hurt.

True Tears is still by and far their best work. It's just unfortunate it sold like shit; so that must have had a bad effect on them...
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Old 2011-08-22, 14:16   Link #37
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I already think that letting someone who's never written for anime (which is different from visual novels) is risky but adapting his 6 cour script in a 1 cour anime?That seems crazy to me.
It was always a 1-cour script. What the blogger probably means is that in terms of planning, Maeda presented a story scope that could only be adequately developed over a long series.

From the beginning, the show called for 13 episodes. Nevertheless, Maeda prepared a typical Maeda-sized concept and proceeded to write a script that fit the small episode count.

Quote:
And these decision came from Aniplex's producer (sorry can't remember the name) rather than anyone at PA works.
That was probably in deference to Maeda's superstar status. People whine a lot about "executive meddling", but this may be the case of an opposite extreme.

I don't know how common this tends to be in the anime industry, but I've heard of policies at Japanese game companies where employees and managers are forbidden from criticizing the star creator. They're obliged to go along with what he says even if they think something's bad.
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Old 2011-08-22, 18:42   Link #38
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I think that it's great that P.A. Works is willing to go out and constantly make original works rather than adaptations. There's enough adaptations out there already - some 90% of all anime.

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I don't know how common this tends to be in the anime industry, but I've heard of policies at Japanese game companies where employees and managers are forbidden from criticizing the star creator. They're obliged to go along with what he says even if they think something's bad.
That's pretty much how it works in anime. Once the series director (or whoever) says his bit, everyone else falls in line.
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Old 2011-08-27, 11:41   Link #39
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Well here we go,PA works' first adaption will come this winter,they'll adapt the horror novels "Another"

That staff as nothing to do with any previous shows by them.Notably no Mari Okada.
Also I'm glad to see PA works is willing to diversify and try something new when it comes to genre (When will we see a KyoAni horror anime?).

Here's hoping it'll be the project where they get their real first classic.
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Old 2011-08-28, 15:35   Link #40
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Really glad to hear that they are doing something different. Certainly deserves a look. Not to mention it seems like they are actually getting an honest to god better writer than Jun/Okada/Hino mixture they had been drinking ever since they came into being

Now that my net is back Something to address before anything else Okada-related
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Wait, I missed this...

I won't even go bash the emo-style OP much, because even though the first one was consistent ear rape, let's talk about the BGM...
Your going to have to explain to me how an opening about a girl who's opening up again and becoming more optimistic after going through tough times is considered ''emo''.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Oh wait, there's nothing to talk about the BGM. It's not even there half the time.
Generalization, and not to mention just a very strange criticism. So what if the BGM isn't there all the time?Silence is just as important as any track in an episode. Otherwise it would sound like a Hanna-Barbera cartoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
The greatest weakness of its filler episodes is that it's devoid of music, making the atmosphere absolutely dry. And when they do have it, it's the same few tunes-- extremely repetitious.
Now you turned around to criticize the ''filler'' episodes, and you'r not actually talking about the actual score itself but the music placement, but okay, I'll bite.

I re-watched Episode 7 for this example (since I guess it's the favorite to be called a filler), as well as Episodes 20 and 21 (since they are recent).

In episode 7, there was a single track that had been reused constantly throughout the episode, which was the military track for whenever the LARPers sneaked around or when the show wanted to illustrate how much SRS they were about this game of theirs. I didn't find it extremely repetitious, as you put it, but it is repetitious usage of the same song (even though I didn't think any usage of said song was out of place) so I'll give you that.

Everything else? Aside from that one track, there were 11 other pieces used throughout the episode. Some short, but the majority were normal size tracks. Hardly what I call devoid of music, or leaving the atmosphere dry.

As for the recent episodes, there were about 8 to 9 tracks used in each, with 21 having an insert radio song as well. So it seems like the argument for the ''filler'' episode having less music doesn't hold any water.
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Incidentally the last episode had some more, but... still, I can't see (or really hear) anything of significance.
And the stuff you do hear? Because that's what I was talking about when I mentioned how the OST was good, the actual OST, not the usage of it in the show. The usage is decent most of the time without any major faults and manages to do it's job IMO, but the actual OST is among the better ones this year. Not the best, but certainly it's good.
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I haven't seen that much anime where the sound is that lacking with dead silence. Incidentally, it's the weaker episodes that do this more.
You need to pay more attention to the audio usage in anime then :/

And I think your convincing yourself that the weaker episodes have less music, when in fact they at best have the same or more than the usual.
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
And this is why I used Yosuga no Sora, as an example of good use of BGM. But even if we don't compare it to that, that's probably the greatest difference between True Tears and Hana Saku Iroha if we just count atmosphere. And there's Angel Beats...
YnS had the good fortunate of a great OST and excellent music placement. That's why it's better than Hanasaku in that area, because it is a better OST with a better usage. That doesn't mean anything less would be shit, since the music in YnS is at such a high standard.

To me, the greatest difference between Hanasaku and True Tears is that there is a clear planing problem in Hanasaku (which I think lies squarely in the hands of Ms.Whimsical) not on the atmosphere, and certainly not the music. There hadn't been an instance where I thought that the lead up from the silence to the music, the volume, their actual usage, or the quality of the tracks used.

Maybe you don't like the sort of atmosphere that the show sets up, or you think it can be done better, but what you say about the lack of music is simply untrue.

@Reckoner, Triple_R, Archon_Wing

Since you guy's sort of have the same comment about Okada (you certainly hold her at a much higher regard than I do) and since TJR answered a bit about what I wanted to say about why I attribute the problems in the writing (and planing) of the show to her (aside form the fact the majority of her work, both adaption and original) I think I'll touch on my own reasons for disliking her work.

Too many cooks Spoil the Broth? I think that Protection From Editors would be a better way to describe it. Only one who could salvage a show for a sea for fail? How can she do that if she is the one in charge of sailing the ship? The director? Sure, but the other works he's worked on didn't have the problems that the shows Okada had worked on. Issues that continue to pop up more and more frequently in her original works, to the point where it can't be attributed to anyone else but her.

I don't hate the work Mari Okada makes, and certainly I think she works better when she is handling an adaption under some form of restriction to stick to the original script, but these days, with her making hit after hit, she has had those restrictions removed which allowed her more dirtier and ''charming'' elements to show up everywhere. Yes, even in AnoHana. It might've been more ''subtle'', but it was there as well.

She's good at dialogue, drama and general development of the cast, but her biggest weakness comes in planning and pacing her shows through, moreso these days with her running out of time by the end creating a mess of an ending in most cases.

That's really my problem with her, she's a decent writer with some problems that need to be addressed by having her work on tighter restrictions, but instead they are allowing her to work more freely, to the point where now her shows are more characterized with a paper thin premise for some decent drama, likable cast, innuendos (if not more) cranked up to eleven, and weak endings.

I love Hanasaku Iroha, it's a great looking show with a great cast, nice dialogue and some nice messages (most of the time anyway) and good music, but it's clear that the show hadn't been planned well enough, hadn't had the idea of it's premise fleshed out properly, and clearly had problems with the order it's stories had been told in. All of these problems are the faults of the main writer in my eye, and in this case it's Okada.
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