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Old 2011-08-23, 10:02   Link #23881
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm pretty sure there's no physical descriptions of Gaap until ep4, and I'm not even remotely convinced that Gaap's explanation in ep7 was actually thought up before ep4. In fact I'd wager a modest sum that he made that one up later.
That's quite likely as he also thought up Virgilia and Erika later while he was writing. But I'd have to say that I think it's not that bad, he kinda wrote around that (voluntarily or by sheer luck...who knows) being problematic by letting EP3 and onward be created and written by somebody else than the first two in-universe.

He wanted to make the concept of Umineko so he could go different pathes depending on how good his adverseries (the reader) were in figuring the truth out. That's why he laid out all this plot devices he only used later (or partly never used) like AT said.
I still think this soft-writing approach is the only thing that bothered me a little about Umineko.
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:19   Link #23882
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I still think this soft-writing approach is the only thing that bothered me a little about Umineko.
You're going to hate literature, because everyone worth their salt does it.
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:34   Link #23883
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're going to hate literature, because everyone worth their salt does it.
And another mindblowingly neat comment

What I actually meant was the approach to alter the narrative based on how readers react to the story, which is naturally only present in continuing series. Some mystery novels show this if they were printed in a magazine...but most I read are finished works, so altering them while releasing them is normally not that present.
Of course you include many more plot-elements into an idea than you actually use in the end, but a half competent writer knows how to at least write around that stuff being too obviously in your face.

What bugs me about Umineko is that you actually notice, without reading any interviews, that he prepared the options to include much more different scenarios and maybe even development by the sheer amount of characters alone. But the fact that he cared too much about more than half of his readers being dumber than shit on a stick apparently drove him into slowing the whole narrative down to Care Bears level.
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:45   Link #23884
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All this still leaves Sakutarou's presence in episode 6's magic narrative not fully explained.

1) Did Touya make up Sakutarou (as well as the 1998 Ange in episode 4)?
2) Did Touya learn of Sakutarou somehow?
3) Was the part where Sakutarou shows up to fight Kanon/Shannon not actually magic narrative, but meta-narrative?

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-23 at 13:09.
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Old 2011-08-23, 13:23   Link #23885
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Touya learned of Sakutarou by coming into contact with Maria's diary. He merely wrote a Forgery of 1998 where Ange found it instead.

Boosh.
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Old 2011-08-23, 14:12   Link #23886
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It's actually an interesting question. There are several possible approaches:
  • Touya/Battler made Sakutarou up himself. He may or may not have written him into the magic narrative in 1998 scenes if those appeared in Alliance.
  • Maria really did make Sakutarou up, and someone observed this. We know that the message bottle writer didn't, or at the very least didn't consider him important enough to mention in her stories. If Maria made him up, then EITHER...
  • ...Touya eventually found out about him by acquiring Maria's diary or a similar source (or what he believed to be a similar source) and integrated him into the story. Ikuko is shown taking an interest in purchasing documents and primary sources, so it's entirely plausible she could've gone out and bought something alleged to belong to a family member which Touya then read. OR...
  • ...Ange actually made him up based on Maria's representations. As "Yukari," she then transformed Sakutarou into a childrens' book character. Touya somehow figured this out, guessed the source (perhaps with the diary after all), and wrote it into his own works as a coded message (much as the message bottle stories were likely a message to him). Note that Ange doesn't actually need to have Maria's diary for this to work, as she may have actually had direct contact with Maria and knowledge of Sakutarou during the time where Maria had him as a toy. If that ever happened.
  • Alternatively, Sakutarou - and probably MARIA - are entirely meta, and as such do not actually have a magic world presence at all. This assumes of course that the meta-world does not appear in a narrative; were this the case, neither MARIA nor Sakutarou was ever in anything that was written down. This by necessity makes the Ange scenes in ep4 and ep6 either entirely meta or secondary fiction not contained in the original work. Bit messy, but it's actually kind of reasonable if you consider which scenes Sakutarou overwhelmingly appears in.
Really it again comes down to the age-old question of how much we actually see in a given episode reflects the in-universe fiction written about it. Since we aren't even sure if meta or magic narrative exists in the primary fiction, it's impossible to even begin to guess once we start getting into the future stuff, especially when it's meta-recursive (ep6 is a giant turd in the punch bowl of trying to establish a hierarchy that isn't intentionally recursive, which it may well be).

I kinda like the idea of Touya suspecting the author of the Sakutarou books of being Ange, but it requires that she have started writing the series while he was still in the process of writing his own. And that he somehow knew enough about who he was and who she was to care.
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Old 2011-08-23, 15:05   Link #23887
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Didn't Rosa have a company that dedicated itself to making stuffed animals like so, which Maria then took up the fantasy approach to it? It seems an easy scenario, parent makes kid a toy. Kid has wild imagination and gives it a personification, like the rest of her toys, doesn't realize that it was just a chain of product from Rosa's store, ect. Anyone could have assumed she would have given her toys personification after that.


I don't see it as being very challenging for Touhya to learn of Sakutaru under this scenario, all he had to do was remember Rosa, then remember her company, quick search on the internet or something and bam, instant knowledge of Sakutaru.
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Old 2011-08-23, 16:44   Link #23888
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I don't see it as being very challenging for Touhya to learn of Sakutaru under this scenario, all he had to do was remember Rosa, then remember her company, quick search on the internet or something and bam, instant knowledge of Sakutaru.
I'm not sure what your angle is here, but it seems to support the idea that Sakutarou (as a magical friend) was made up by Touya.

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Touya/Battler made Sakutarou up himself. He may or may not have written him into the magic narrative in 1998 scenes if those appeared in Alliance.
At this point, I'm leaning towards this answer. And if he did make him up, I would say it makes a lot more sense that 1998 appeared in Alliance, and that 1998 magic scenes were actually written, with Sakutarou included.
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Touya eventually found out about him by acquiring Maria's diary or a similar source (or what he believed to be a similar source) and integrated him into the story. Ikuko is shown taking an interest in purchasing documents and primary sources, so it's entirely plausible she could've gone out and bought something alleged to belong to a family member which Touya then read.
Indeed, very plausible. Notably, if the Hachijous had Maria's diary, then Ange didn't; and we could be pretty sure that episode 4 1998 Ange would be part of Alliance, since Maria's diary was so darned central to that Ange's character. Although, if Touya learned from a source X, then it doesn't really affirm or deny 1998 being in Alliance.
Quote:
OR Ange actually made him up based on Maria's representations. As "Yukari," she then transformed Sakutarou into a childrens' book character. Touya somehow figured this out, guessed the source (perhaps with the diary after all), and wrote it into his own works as a coded message (much as the message bottle stories were likely a message to him). Note that Ange doesn't actually need to have Maria's diary for this to work, as she may have actually had direct contact with Maria and knowledge of Sakutarou during the time where Maria had him as a toy. If that ever happened.
Quote:
I kinda like the idea of Touya suspecting the author of the Sakutarou books of being Ange, but it requires that she have started writing the series while he was still in the process of writing his own. And that he somehow knew enough about who he was and who she was to care.
I like this idea too; it's interesting. Unfortunately, in addition to the problems you mentioned, I don't think it works well with what we know about Ange and the Hachijous' meeting in the end of episode 8. Iirc, the Hachijous only looked into "Yukari" when she became famous "decades later" and met her immediately after. I suppose it's possible that they read some of her work before that, but I thought it was implied that they had not.

Of course, if my theory is correct, it actually was Yukari who borrowed Sakutarou from Touya's fiction, not the other way around. Hmm...

Quote:
Alternatively, Sakutarou - and probably MARIA - are entirely meta, and as such do not actually have a magic world presence at all. This assumes of course that the meta-world does not appear in a narrative; were this the case, neither MARIA nor Sakutarou was ever in anything that was written down. This by necessity makes the Ange scenes in ep4 and ep6 either entirely meta or secondary fiction not contained in the original work. Bit messy, but it's actually kind of reasonable if you consider which scenes Sakutarou overwhelmingly appears in.
But Sakutarou appeared in the magical narrative of episode 6, when Shannon had to kill Maria in the parlor as part of her love trial. Perhaps you could say that part somehow wasn't actually magical narrative, but meta, which is a little plausible since episode 6's meta-structure is so weird.
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Old 2011-08-23, 17:28   Link #23889
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But Sakutarou appeared in the magical narrative of episode 6, when Shannon had to kill Maria in the parlor as part of her love trial. Perhaps you could say that part somehow wasn't actually magical narrative, but meta, which is a little plausible since episode 6's meta-structure is so weird.
This again is a question of wether it was in the narrative Tya wrote or not. It could have just as well only been depicted like every other murder during EP1 (except Kanon) which is without showing the culprit at all. Actually showing "the culprit" or the magical explanation of the murders only popped up after the meta-world started appearing in EP2 and only after Battler had started getting used to it (which is from the 2nd twilight onwards).

Also if the meta-world icluding the magical apparitions was a part of the narrative, which I assume it wasn't, it would beg the question why it was only included from the second half (or third) of the 2nd message bottle onwards.
What if not only the 3rd but also the 2nd had gone under?
Was the meta-world in EP1 as well and we just read that one wrong? Do we have to assume that the 3rd included an explanation that was even more different than the meta-world of Turn? It actually doesn't make much sense for Yasu to write two distinctly different narratives...especially if the Witch Hunters and the police said that apart from the order of deaths they basically depicted the same type of events.
Wouldn't they suspect one of them to be fake if one depicted a murder mystery with slight occult elements and one the other a crazy ass fantasy story about a witch roaming the island with goat butlers and magical girl stakes?!

I just think that it doesn't add up if the magical scenes are in the narrative at all.
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Old 2011-08-23, 17:46   Link #23890
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And another mindblowingly neat comment

What I actually meant was the approach to alter the narrative based on how readers react to the story, which is naturally only present in continuing series. Some mystery novels show this if they were printed in a magazine...but most I read are finished works, so altering them while releasing them is normally not that present.
Of course you include many more plot-elements into an idea than you actually use in the end, but a half competent writer knows how to at least write around that stuff being too obviously in your face.

What bugs me about Umineko is that you actually notice, without reading any interviews, that he prepared the options to include much more different scenarios and maybe even development by the sheer amount of characters alone. But the fact that he cared too much about more than half of his readers being dumber than shit on a stick apparently drove him into slowing the whole narrative down to Care Bears level.
I think even serialized mysteries don't alter their narrative due to readers that much. One of the first fairplay mysteries, The Big Bow mystery, was a serialized locked-room mystery. Later on the author made sure to explain that he never intended on changing his solution despite the multiple letters he received from readers who claimed to have solved it.

I don't know of too many stories that truly changed their solution or factors due to serialized publication(I suspect that was more common with Japanese fiction than Western fiction if only due to how publishing worked back during the Golden Age though).

I wonder if in the darkest corners of his mind, Ryuukishi ever planned on making Gohda important. Because really I liked Gohda.
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Old 2011-08-23, 18:14   Link #23891
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Quote:
I don't see it as being very challenging for Touhya to learn of Sakutaru under this scenario, all he had to do was remember Rosa, then remember her company, quick search on the internet or something and bam, instant knowledge of Sakutaru.
Sakutaru was one of a kind and handmade; this was confirmed in Red. It is implied that Rosa may have made a second one to make things up to Maria, but no other child ever got to play with one.
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Old 2011-08-23, 19:34   Link #23892
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This again is a question of wether it was in the narrative Tya wrote or not. It could have just as well only been depicted like every other murder during EP1 (except Kanon) which is without showing the culprit at all. Actually showing "the culprit" or the magical explanation of the murders only popped up after the meta-world started appearing in EP2 and only after Battler had started getting used to it (which is from the 2nd twilight onwards).
-snip-
I just think that it doesn't add up if the magical scenes are in the narrative at all.
The change between episodes one and two is a good point. Although, it's not as though episode one had zero magical narrative.

The thing is, doesn't the observer change after episode 6? But a lot of the same magical characters still appear.

Also, the same purgatory sticks are part of Ange's narrative in episode 4, 1998. Is it just a coincidence that Touya projected the same exact characters onto the stakes that Ange did?
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Old 2011-08-23, 21:16   Link #23893
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
I don't know of too many stories that truly changed their solution or factors due to serialized publication(I suspect that was more common with Japanese fiction than Western fiction if only due to how publishing worked back during the Golden Age though).

I wonder if in the darkest corners of his mind, Ryuukishi ever planned on making Gohda important. Because really I liked Gohda.
Well, even in Japan it's not very common to change things around. Most of the time serialization is just something done to push young authors and see how the readers react to their stories, if they want to read more...and sometimes publishers seem to suggest changes depending on letters received by the readers. Those magazines are spiced up with excerts from the scripts of big name authors...but they have most of their stories already planned out when they start writing/publishing.
Sometimes publishers do little contests with ridicilously big prizes when they serialize a big name authors story. Though this is more common with Mystery TV-productions like the rather well known Ayatsuji Yukito, Arisugawa Arisu kara no chousen-j: Anrakuisu tantei series (roughly: A cinematic challenge by Ayatsuji Yukito and Arisugawa Arisu: The Armchair Detective series). This is a series of films where two 2-hour films are broadcasted, the 2nd one week after the other, and people can send in their solutions...the best solution wins.
Those are done in magazines as well sometimes...so authors better have their solution ready before that (and most of the time they do as I've heard ).

And yes, I definitely think he had some stuff planned for Gohda. That goat in EP4 was so modelled to become Gohdas family background I think...and he had his own TIP as well. I think he might have become important in the "everybody is locked in one room" scenario...as they still need the servants...but it never came to that.

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Also, the same purgatory sticks are part of Ange's narrative in episode 4, 1998. Is it just a coincidence that Touya projected the same exact characters onto the stakes that Ange did?
That is actually the one thing that drives a whole in my theory again...the fact that Tya at least seems to have known how he should imagine the magical characters that were just in Maria's book. Especially the stakes and the Siestas prove a real problem there. Though you could always say that Maria showed him the bloody book on the island...
And somebody most have taken it, either Eva or Battler...because I doubt that Maria's diary is explosion proof. Though if it was Battler, how did it get to Ange?
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Old 2011-08-24, 00:33   Link #23894
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That is actually the one thing that drives a whole in my theory again...the fact that Tya at least seems to have known how he should imagine the magical characters that were just in Maria's book. Especially the stakes and the Siestas prove a real problem there. Though you could always say that Maria showed him the bloody book on the island...
And somebody most have taken it, either Eva or Battler...because I doubt that Maria's diary is explosion proof. Though if it was Battler, how did it get to Ange?
Well, the diary isn't absolutely necessary; Battler could have just heard about them on the island from Maria, while the diary was left at Maria's home and Ange inherited it later... Still, it's pretty flimsy. And then they would also still have to coincidentally have the same characters in their delusions/interpretations.

Although whether 1998 is part of Alliance or not, and whether magic narratives are meta or novel, are not exactly the same problem. Though, what I am still leaning towards at the moment is that 1998 is in Alliance and magic narratives are written.
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Old 2011-08-24, 00:50   Link #23895
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But Sakutarou appeared in the magical narrative of episode 6, when Shannon had to kill Maria in the parlor as part of her love trial. Perhaps you could say that part somehow wasn't actually magical narrative, but meta, which is a little plausible since episode 6's meta-structure is so weird.
That's how it appears, yes, and he also appears in the "magic" narrative of Ange's 1998. However, if those scenes are not primary-document "magic scenes," they don't count. If, for example, the various magic murders don't happen in Touya's End of the Golden Witch - and as has been pointed out, it doesn't make much sense for them to since they tie directly to the Love Duel which is decidedly a meta contest - then neither does the appearance of Sakutarou and MARIA to defend Rosa.

Or, if none of the magic scenes ever are part of the original stories, then the magic layer is literally a subordinate interpretive layer of the meta-world, a literal "game board" on which human characters are elevated and magic characters projected down, in which the Game Master presents an interpretation of events based on the fiction and the player attempts to debunk it. Looked at this way, Meta-Beatrice's arrival at the end of ep1 and subsequent challenge in ep2 take on something of a different tenor.
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That is actually the one thing that drives a whole in my theory again...the fact that Tya at least seems to have known how he should imagine the magical characters that were just in Maria's book. Especially the stakes and the Siestas prove a real problem there. Though you could always say that Maria showed him the bloody book on the island...
Assuming Maria really had such a book, why not? Obviously the question becomes "how does Touya remember," but it's possible he just sort of got inspired and it rose from his subconscious. Or it didn't kick into his memory until he read the message bottles. Or he didn't remember at all (or never saw it, or Maria never had such a thing) but was working off the precedent established in the first stories.
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Old 2011-08-24, 01:25   Link #23896
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That's how it appears, yes, and he also appears in the "magic" narrative of Ange's 1998. However, if those scenes are not primary-document "magic scenes," they don't count. If, for example, the various magic murders don't happen in Touya's End of the Golden Witch - and as has been pointed out, it doesn't make much sense for them to since they tie directly to the Love Duel which is decidedly a meta contest - then neither does the appearance of Sakutarou and MARIA to defend Rosa.
Were there magical murders in End? You mean Dawn?

Is the love duel a decidedly meta contest? It seemed to me to be a fundamental part of what BATTLER wanted to convey in his story; he was demonstrating how he actually knew Beatrice's (Yasu's) true nature... or something like that.

Man, Dawn is really problematic. The whole darned episode might warrant a reread.

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Or, if none of the magic scenes ever are part of the original stories, then the magic layer is literally a subordinate interpretive layer of the meta-world, a literal "game board" on which human characters are elevated and magic characters projected down, in which the Game Master presents an interpretation of events based on the fiction and the player attempts to debunk it. Looked at this way, Meta-Beatrice's arrival at the end of ep1 and subsequent challenge in ep2 take on something of a different tenor.
I'm still not sure if I like this idea yet. I think my main problem is that it makes even less of what is presented to us reliable.
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Old 2011-08-24, 01:49   Link #23897
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Were there magical murders in End? You mean Dawn?
End had magic scenes. Natsuhi all over.

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Is the love duel a decidedly meta contest? It seemed to me to be a fundamental part of what BATTLER wanted to convey in his story; he was demonstrating how he actually knew Beatrice's (Yasu's) true nature... or something like that.
I'd wager that Dawn is probably the best evidence for the existence of magic scenes in the Forgeries. Ikuko, Amakusa, and Ange all comment on them.
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Old 2011-08-24, 01:56   Link #23898
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End had magic scenes. Natsuhi all over.
<_< I said magical murders.
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Old 2011-08-24, 02:05   Link #23899
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Is the love duel a decidedly meta contest? It seemed to me to be a fundamental part of what BATTLER wanted to convey in his story; he was demonstrating how he actually knew Beatrice's (Yasu's) true nature... or something like that.

Man, Dawn is really problematic. The whole darned episode might warrant a reread.
Yes, the love duel is absolutely meta, which is also implied by chick-Beato entering it together with older sister Beato after they visited the meta-plane of Ange and Featherine and later being joined by BATTLER...not to mention being conducted by Zepar and Furfur who basically also exist as conductors on the meta-plane and don't exist as a physical presence on the island at all. It is basically just 3 people (Shkannontrice, George and Jessica) getting their shit together and finally trying to decide matters. Hell, the whole second half takes place while they are locked in different rooms...how is this not meta?!

It's even more obvious that it isn't in the narrative if you consider how Erika is probably supposed to be the arm of the readership who crave for a cruel and logical answer (represented in spirit by Bern). She never even notices the bloody thing happening...she is wondering who might have killed the people in those rooms and if they ever died at all, so she just beheads them all...and later she searches for some stupid excuses like George being Kanon when we (the readers) actually just saw Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice merging to the narration of Zepar and Furfur how they are parts of one soul who must become one to fullfil their true love...
I mean come on...if that was in the narrative and the readers in the Umineko universe didn't get it they'd have to be pretty darn dumb.

Actually Dawn is not problematic at all, as long as you disregard BATTLERs crazy shennanigans with reviving Beatrice and restoring the lost love...probably all just for Bern so she is terribly, terribly confused and disgusted by all the sugarcoating and rather "eats her guts and dies".

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I'm still not sure if I like this idea yet. I think my main problem is that it makes even less of what is presented to us reliable.
No, actually it makes a lot more reliable, because you can actually say that everything presented to us as a magic scene is just a magical explanation of what is actually happening. Of course it could just be terrible bullshit and actually the scenes happened totally different than what we saw...but why the hell would a writer do that?! It's as if the things the little boy saw at the hotel in Shining wasn't actually developing the places past but was in fact just him having played too many violent videogames...

Let's take an example I made up. Jessica is found dead in a room...and as an explanation I'll give you that Virgilia showed up in front of Jessica after Gaap had warped her into the room andforced her to choose whom of her parents should die. They are watching Krauss and Natsuhi through a magic mirror, because of course nobody with a master key was among them so they couldn't see what was happening in the room just opposite of the one their in, unless the doors were open. At the end, of course, Natsuhi is found dead in the other room.
There is a terribly easy explanation to this when you know the solutions and the magic version actually helps...you just have to use it correctly.
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Old 2011-08-24, 02:25   Link #23900
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become crazy and then create a sadistic game involving the murder of his own family to revive the witch and see her again.
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