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Old 2011-08-23, 18:34   Link #821
yezhanquan
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I can understand the cult-like behaviour. These are the people who not only play the games, but read information from the expanded universe.

Amng Blizzard games, Diablo's expanded universe is the weakest by far. But, it is still there.
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Old 2011-08-23, 19:35   Link #822
DonQuigleone
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Regarding Mods, I love mods, I play them all the time (Paradox games get a lot of their product life due to player made mods and tweaks). However in some games they're not as appropriate. In particular large scale multiplayer games like Diablo 2 and 3. In a game like Diablo 2 it's important for all the players to be playing by the same "rules" otherwise it would be unfair if some players had modded copies.

What Blizzard are intending is to integrate the online and offline portions of Diablo 3, and I think this is actually a good way to go. Single player Diablo 3 will be richer for being able to trade your loot. I think the offline/online integration of SC2 also worked quite well.

As an RPG, Diablo, I think, works best as a pseudo MMO. And that's how I think it should be arranged.

If you really want a modded diabloesque game I'm sure there's other engines you can look at. It's getting easier and easier for independent games to get made outside of mods.

As for RMAH, I look forward to selling my excess equipment to fools who are willing to pay real money for it. The real meat of trading has always been barter, and that's not going to change. Though being able to auction for gold and then use the gold immediately might be useful.

Blizzard can keep the value of gold in D3 relatively consistent if it's tied to some usefull service ingame (EG trading gold for experience or something). That way if the value of gold gets too low people will switch to buying the other stuff taking gold out of the system until it's more valuable again.
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Old 2011-08-23, 20:47   Link #823
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Reason for no mods in D3 is quite simple. With the way they are setting the game up letting people use mods that alter the game world or the character directly would be directly contrary to the level playing field required for what it essentially is an F2P pseudo-MMO. There is really no way around it or a point to argue about it - I won't be the slightest bit surprised if Warden is included in the game. Warden, for those that don't know, is Blizzards anti-cheat software.

Also, lol @ 'mods not being a important part of gaming'. Console gamers lose out on so much because they generally cannot use mods. Some of the best ways to keep an ageing game alive is with mods, ie. the myriad of player made campaigns developed for FreeSpace 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waven View Post
An editor, even as extensive as the sc2 one, is not an SDK. With it people make maps, not mods.
Starcraft Universe would like to have a word with you about what can be done with a 'map editor'.
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Old 2011-08-23, 20:58   Link #824
synaesthetic
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The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
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Old 2011-08-23, 21:01   Link #825
Mr Hat and Clogs
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True, I hate auto-saving. In an MMO it's ok, I can live with it. But most SP games auto-saving is irritating since if you die you tend to be dumped a long way from where you died. Although that has been getting better. Still hitting F5 every time you came to a corner or a suspiciously ambush friendly open room was a little immersion breaking, and a royal pain if you forgot.
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Old 2011-08-23, 22:20   Link #826
Waven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Console gaming != PC gaming. Plus, big mods take a long time to make, and that's why most of the big mods are for older games. A small handful of guys can't crank out a full-blown TC without a few years to do it.

Also, go search for "fallout 3 mods" or "fallout new vegas mods." Or how about "oblivion mods?" When Skyrim is released, watch how fast The Nexus adds a section for it.

PC gaming's primary strength over console gaming is mods. That, and stupidly high resolutions for those with the hardware to handle it. Blizzard has never been a typical PC game developer, and most Blizzard fans are not PC gamers, but rather Blizzard gamers.

I've known three separate people who have a PC for no other reason than to play WoW and/or SC2. Blizzard is not a PC gaming company. They are a subscription service provider with a pseudo-Apple cult-like following.
I never said the modding scene is gone completely, gems like alien swarm as a more recent example will always surface now and then. Just saying that it's declining nevertheless, especially concerning total conversions for the simple fact that there aren't as much of them released/under development than let's say 5 years ago. You can find several articles about it, I'm surely not making this up, it's just what I've perceived over the last couple of years.

Dunno why but it seems to me like you just hate Blizzard for "some" reason. Most of their games are PC-only, just one of them is subscription-based and your views on what a PC game should be like with moddability as their only legit quality, are pretty contestable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
Now you're being overly and irrationally nostalgic. Hate to pull this card but what do you think how many people share your opinion that D1 is far better then D2 (and in your mindset probably already better than D3 as well) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
...

Starcraft Universe would like to have a word with you about what can be done with a 'map editor'.
How about this: You ask them how much fun it is to try and implement a fully functioning custom 3D model into the editor compared to an SDK for example . I know that it's possible but afaik it's a huge pain in the butt. Not trying to disrespect the potential of maps (the whole MOBA genre is based on blizzard games' maps after all) but I don't believe a let's say GalaxyEditor will ever be able to create a total conversion of its game.
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Old 2011-08-24, 04:28   Link #827
Mr Hat and Clogs
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I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty, but they've done it as far as I know - since that mod plays as a third person shooter almost. I haven't really followed that mod at all since I haven't played SC2 in like a year - just thought it was awesome.
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Old 2011-08-24, 07:19   Link #828
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
I don't know. It prevents save scumming, and save scumming really clamps down on immersion.

I thought it was one of D2's better features. Makes you more cautious.
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Old 2011-08-24, 08:34   Link #829
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
True, I hate auto-saving. In an MMO it's ok, I can live with it. But most SP games auto-saving is irritating since if you die you tend to be dumped a long way from where you died. Although that has been getting better. Still hitting F5 every time you came to a corner or a suspiciously ambush friendly open room was a little immersion breaking, and a royal pain if you forgot.
That's not a problem with saving, but a problem with the death mechanic, and to some extent forced artificial difficulty settings. Meaning, being annoying rather then challenging (ie. stealing from the players, like gold, exp etc), or ambiguous rather then intuitive (ie. you have to die to actually have a chance of figuring it out). I'm all for saving at certain checkpoints where you actually have a choice, so that you don't have to play all the way though the game again just to pick the other choice, but otherwise it's all about developing the skill with the game to actually not die! Games where you actually have a chance of dieing and it's not just "who can run though it faster" (or pot whoring) are a lot more fun and satisfying, especially when you fight something and go bellow the 30% range before managing to kill it (assuming no OP pots and healing).
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:37   Link #830
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
I can understand the cult-like behaviour. These are the people who not only play the games, but read information from the expanded universe.

Amng Blizzard games, Diablo's expanded universe is the weakest by far. But, it is still there.
Which is a pity, since it is by far their most interesting world. Well, Starcraft is cool too, but I don't think it's on the level of Diablo.
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:19   Link #831
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't know. It prevents save scumming, and save scumming really clamps down on immersion.

I thought it was one of D2's better features. Makes you more cautious.
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:37   Link #832
Ithekro
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Well it is that or having to load and kill everything again, plus losing the random loot you got earlier, since the RNG might not favor you twice.
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:55   Link #833
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
Corpse runs suck, definitely. I think docking gold/XP is a suitable enough penalty for dying. It's a tricky thing. You want a system that discourages you from dieing, but also discourages you from save scumming, which would be even worse in D2 due to it's random nature. Imagine if you saved right before killing Mephisto and then continuously saved and reloaded until you got the right loot when killing him -> immersion breaking. You could also save scum while gambling.
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Old 2011-08-25, 21:22   Link #834
yezhanquan
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Which is a pity, since it is by far their most interesting world. Well, Starcraft is cool too, but I don't think it's on the level of Diablo.
Nothing beats Warcraft's one, though. Oh boy, the only reason why I stayed off WoW is because the characters I know from WC3 aren't in.... until now. Good to see Shando Stormrage again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
Rule 1 of D2: Never, ever run past mobs without killing them, unless you are darn sure that there are plenty of spaces to .... run.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2011-08-25 at 21:57.
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Old 2011-08-26, 05:56   Link #835
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Corpse runs suck, definitely. I think docking gold/XP is a suitable enough penalty for dying.
Disagree. IMO just having to walk all the way back and a reset on the HP bar on bosses and on the mobs (along with spawn), is sufficient and appropriate. This whole idea that you just die and just stroll back again (repeat) until it's dead, is crap; let's face it you could go naked and poke it to death like this until it dies. It should be you either can beat it with out dieing or you don't pass, period.

It's also better this way since because you don't lose your hard earned exp you slowly become stronger so eventually you'll beat it; having to go though everything again is also a much more compelling penalty then having to recover your gold or losing a little bit of exp.
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Last edited by felix; 2011-08-26 at 08:17.
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Old 2011-08-26, 06:00   Link #836
Ithekro
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Considering the tactic I liked for a Paladin (for fighting Diablo) was letting him hit me...corpse running in perfect. (Thorns baby....Thorns aura on top of Thorns items....I hit him, his bar goes down a little. He hits me, his bar drops by almost 10%).
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Old 2011-08-26, 18:40   Link #837
synaesthetic
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I must be old fashioned, but personally I prefer a classic Game Over screen when you die. And then let me quickload, damn it.
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Old 2011-08-26, 20:53   Link #838
Rising Dragon
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Corpse runs got really old when it got to the point where you were getting killed by the enemies before you could even reach your corpse and retrieve your equipment.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:50   Link #839
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Corpse runs got really old when it got to the point where you were getting killed by the enemies before you could even reach your corpse and retrieve your equipment.
Yup. This is exactly my issue with it, the immersion impacts notwithstanding.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:57   Link #840
DonQuigleone
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Dealing with character death is always hard. But I think taking out saving and reloading was the right move.

That said, reloading after death isn't perfect either. It's quite easy to go long periods without remembering to save, suddenly finding out you have to complete 3 or 4 dungeons all over again is quite disheartening...

And if you are a good saver, it makes the consequences of death a bit trivial, particularly in Diablo 2 where most fights don't last more then a minute.
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