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Old 2011-08-24, 19:38   Link #121
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Agreed.

I don't think I could ever again be a 80% shonen anime fan (as I was at one time), but there are types of anime other than shonen, and I think that some of those types often have characters and/or stories that can appeal to an older audience.

There might come a time that I'm simply tired of anime, but I wouldn't consider that the same as "growing out of it".
I think 'growing out of it' as a phrase can come off as kind of insulting, especially to older fans who clearly are grown already.

But to word it differently, my anime tastes were always diverse, and I'm pretty damn burnt out from my peak days of watching (2004-2007ish). So while Vexx's theory may be accurate for some, I don't think it describes my predicament. I've actually been trying to get back into the hobby for about a year now, with little success.

I think the idea of 'growing out of it' kind of stems from people who watched anime during their adolescence or childhood, loved it, and gradually changed as people over the years (as we all do) and find it harder to gain enjoyment. So it's not necessarily because of being more mature or anything like that, but rather the individual's tastes and interests being variable and always evolving, with the most rapid changes usually happening during adolescence. I know the person I am today versus the person who registered to this forum in 2004 are very different. My maturity is not the reason I gain less enjoyment from anime. But the changes that have occurred with age, perhaps not in relation to maturity but rather just natural waxing and waning of passions, are definitely a component. Really, I have trouble enjoying most forms of fiction nowadays (some exceptions, of course) whereas I used to love it. I'm becoming a boring non-fiction guy, I guess, lol.
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Old 2011-08-24, 20:13   Link #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I think 'growing out of it' as a phrase can come off as kind of insulting, especially to older fans who clearly are grown already.
The phrase can absolutely be seen as having a loaded meaning. Growing out of it, like you said, seems to imply that there's something shallow and juvenile about the whole thing; that it's a phase you're supposed to leave at a certain stage in your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I think the idea of 'growing out of it' kind of stems from people who watched anime during their adolescence or childhood, loved it, and gradually changed as people over the years (as we all do) and find it harder to gain enjoyment. So it's not necessarily because of being more mature or anything like that, but rather the individual's tastes and interests being variable and always evolving, with the most rapid changes usually happening during adolescence.
Good points, I tend to agree. There's also the ever-changing anime industry itself. People who grew up on 90s and early 00s series may not appreciate the way the industry has changed since then. In a sense, the opposite might be true for them they might feel that they've remained the same, but anime as a whole has grown away from them.
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Old 2011-08-24, 20:55   Link #123
DonQuigleone
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I've been in Anime since ~2006, and back then there was a large contingent of people saying Anime was clearly getting worse, and it's just not waht it used to be, and now in 2011, 2006 is widely considered a "peak year".

I'd have to agree with whoever said that those who "grow out of" anime were likely only interested in only one particular genre (EG Shonen) in the first place.

Myself I had 2 entirely seperate phases of Anime fandom. I had the fandom of my childhood-teen years, where I was into Pokemon, Digimon etc. but I generally dismissed Anime otherwise.

Around 2006 I first stumbled across Anime on Youtube (watched the entirety of Ouran Host Club, and then Suzumiya Haruhi in the space of a week), and so here I am now, after watching so many Anime I no longer can count them.

I'd say the crowd who come in through Naruto/Bleach/DBZ tend to be the most likely to leave, while I came in through a more diverse route.

I wouldn't really describe myself as Anime fan anymore though, I'm more of an "Animation fan", given Japan has the largest Animation industry it's natural I gravitate to it... But I definitely prefer the stuff that doesn't emphasise traditional Anime clichés.

The reason I stay in Anime is that I think animation has more creative possibilities then any other filmed medium, as it seperates you from the boundaries of the physically possible, it allows for a more stylized representation of events that is perhaps truer to human thought. Animation truly allows the creator to unshackle their imagination from real world constraints.

And that's why I'll never grow out of it.
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:08   Link #124
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Well, as far as I'm aware, the major gap for me for the 90s are the Masterpiece theatre type shows, but I didn't necessarily get into Anime for that type of thing. If I wanted Heidi, or the Dog of Flanders, I'd actually read those books.
I feel much the same way, but can the same not be said of manga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
As for choosing vintage shows to watch, my first port of call is usually MAL, rather then the reccomendation of any given person (my experience with reccomendations has been poor, randomly picking stuff off MAL goes better for me, the higher up the list it is, the more likely it is to be good, particularly with old stuff).
While random recommendations can be very hit or miss, basing your selection on MAL isn't necessarily a good remedy either. Using this method, you're a lot less likely to come up with a real stinker, but you're going to miss a good selection of older works. Th oldest thing on your list is Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Overture to a New War, and that only goes back to 1993. On top of that, MAL is effectively an internet poll, and internet polls are absurdly unreliable to begin with. This is especially true since the tastes of less discerning viewers is given greater weight than the rest.

A more reliable method would be simply to take the creative people in your favorite anime, and see what else they've worked on. Or just check out the works of the masters: Miyazaki, Ishiguro, Takahata, Dezaki, Tezuka. Outside of the Ghibli films, these guys' works are pretty much ignored by the fandom.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Now if you're saying there's some amazing Anime that's not on that list (perfectly possible), due to a) being somehow overlooked by the 1000s of Anime fans out there or b) not being fansubbed, then I admit that there would be perhaps more. But I have no way of meaningfully knowing the existence of those titles. If I was somehow alerted to those titles I'd watch them and probably enjoy them (as I have with LoGH, Gunbuster, Cowboy Bebop, All the Ghibli movies...) but as they have not been brought to my attention through either a) buzz or b) presence on MAL or ANN's top list, there's little I can do.
Buzz is barely relevant to older works, and the taste of anime fandom is relatively questionable. One thing that I can suggest to get over your hangup on sports shows is that you check out Hikaru no Go. It's a great show that also serves as a non-intimidating entry into the genre; the first five episodes should let you know whether it's worth watching or not.
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:33   Link #125
ChainLegacy
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I second Hikaru no Go. Some other great sports anime are Touch (and the more recent Cross Game) as well Hajime no Ippo. I'm not a baseball fan and that didn't stop me from enjoying Touch, and I like boxing somewhat but that's not what makes Hajime no Ippo fun.
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:46   Link #126
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Well, as far as I'm aware, the major gap for me for the 90s are the Masterpiece theatre type shows, but I didn't necessarily get into Anime for that type of thing. If I wanted Heidi, or the Dog of Flanders, I'd actually read those books. As for choosing vintage shows to watch, my first port of call is usually MAL, rather then the reccomendation of any given person (my experience with reccomendations has been poor, randomly picking stuff off MAL goes better for me, the higher up the list it is, the more likely it is to be good, particularly with old stuff).

Going down the list on MAL, I haven't seen:
* Slam Dunk (Sports Shonen-> little interest)
* Romeo no Aoi Sora (No interest, due to above)
* Yu Yu Hakusho (Shonen-> little interest)
* Berserk (probably should watch that)
* Kodomo no Omocha (ehhhh)
* Flanders no Inu (Same as Romeo)
* Slayers Next (no real interest)
For what it's worth I consider Slam Dunk to be the greatest shonen ever made. Though I don't think it age very well and it does drag on, but the characters are still great and so are the humors. Too bad that it never finished, the fact that the final matches were never animated is a crime.
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Old 2011-08-24, 22:02   Link #127
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I feel much the same way, but can the same not be said of manga?
Not so much, as Anime is very similiar to Manga, so I'm consuming Anime because I'm interested in what Anime/Manga offer, though if I've read the manga I usually skip on the Anime. I'm not a huge Manga reader though. Generally I prefer Anime to Manga. Something like Masterpiece theatre is offering an experience more similiar to a western literary novel, which I already have plenty of access to, in likely "superior" forms. I can see that stuff all the time. I want to see what Anime/Manga can offer my uniquelly.

Quote:
While random recommendations can be very hit or miss, basing your selection on MAL isn't necessarily a good remedy either. Using this method, you're a lot less likely to come up with a real stinker, but you're going to miss a good selection of older works. Th oldest thing on your list is Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Overture to a New War, and that only goes back to 1993. On top of that, MAL is effectively an internet poll, and internet polls are absurdly unreliable to begin with. This is especially true since the tastes of less discerning viewers is given greater weight than the rest.
I was only speaking about 90s stuff. I've actually seen some far older Anime, including Macross, Zeta Gundam, Conan the boy of the Future, and all the early Ghibli films. The MAL approach has it's weakness (I talk more about it below), but I think it's a very useful impartial approach to finding new things. It's a great tool, as it allows you to access Anime you've never heard of. If anything, it actually benefits older and more unknown Anime. It's the only reason I've even known the existence of most of the older anime I've watched.

Also, I find that MAL(and ANN more so) gives greater visibility to lesser known shows, so you can argue it the other way. It's not a straight popularity contest, as the quality shows don't get utterly overtaken by the popular but lackluster ones. For instance, Naruto only scores 7.68 and Bleach 7.85, which are pretty low in MAL terms. Dragon Ball Z gets a pretty high 8.22, alas.

Quote:
A more reliable method would be simply to take the creative people in your favorite anime, and see what else they've worked on. Or just check out the works of the masters: Miyazaki, Ishiguro, Takahata, Dezaki, Tezuka. Outside of the Ghibli films, these guys' works are pretty much ignored by the fandom.
Aiming for creators you like can work, but it doesn't really help you in exploring the unknown. I like to push my boundaries in Anime, and I find my "MAL" method has some benefits. I think the nature of MAL ratings needs to be understood though. Firstly, it's not actually a true rating of what is the best Anime ever. The list is a statistical measure and gives a probability of a random person liking a given title. The higher up the list you go, the more likely a random person is to like the title. However that doesn't guarantee you won't like something high up the list either (EG, I don't like Gintama at all, which is super high).

The list has a heavy positive bias, and generally you will find plenty of shows high up the list that probably don't belong there. However, on the flip side, really great shows are almost never low down on the list. So if you use the list correctly, you can find great shows while cutting out most of the mediocre and terrible shows, lowering the amounts of bad Anime you need to wade through.

Generally, when trawling for new Anime, I watch Anime that score above a certain threshold, and I set this threshold at the 10% level, IE the top 10% of Anime score above that number. The actual number is unimportant (due to Anime lists running on a 4 point scale...), it's how the anime scores relative to other anime.

If in addition to that you filter out genres you know you won't probably like (though I'd always try a show that is outside your comfort zone every so often), you have a very concrete approach for finding new Anime to watch with minimum amounts of effort required. Makes it super efficient. And it takes a very long time to exhaust the top 10% of MAL.

Quote:
Buzz is barely relevant to older works, and the taste of anime fandom is relatively questionable. One thing that I can suggest to get over your hangup on sports shows is that you check out Hikaru no Go. It's a great show that also serves as a non-intimidating entry into the genre; the first five episodes should let you know whether it's worth watching or not.
I tried Hikaru no Go, wasn't really to my tastes. I think the general concept of Sports Anime doesn't gel with me. I've never been a shonen fan generally. I Watched a fair amount of Ippo too, but I got tired of it too. Perhaps because Ippo wins too much. Sports shows are too long and repetitive to my liking, though they clearly hold appeal to a lot of people. I did like One Outs, but it's a bit different...
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Old 2011-08-24, 23:36   Link #128
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And that's the first page, I've seen every other thing on the first page (14 titles), and a fair few on the next one.

It seems like you are putting way too much weight on very slight differences in score.

Ocean Waves is all the way down on page 17 of that list with a 7.22. Page 2 goes down to a score of 8. So from page 2 to 17 there is only a drop of .78. That is a .05 drop per page in an unscientific internet poll.

Looking at just the first couple pages is totally arbitrary.

The scores go until page 49, so you would put Ocean Waves in the 65th percentile.

I can guarantee you are missing tons of great anime using that method.

Even some of the most highly acclaimed anime of the 90s (Serial Experiments Lain, Crest of the Stars, Kare Kano, Jin-Roh, Master Keaton, Nadesico, Only Yesterday,...) didn't make the top 2 pages there.

If you haven't already, I would suggest to keep going down the list, starting with Berserk, and then research the shows you missed on page 2, and then keep going because the score changes are so small it doesn't make sense to put a cut off there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If I wanted Heidi, or the Dog of Flanders, I'd actually read those books.
I do kind of agree with you here, there are other (probably) superior ways to experience these.

Actually, the reason I never watched Akage no Anne is because I already watched the tv miniseries Anne of Green Gables from 1985, which is amazing. Maybe I should watch it anyway, but I don't think it could compare for me.

Last edited by Ermes Marana; 2011-08-25 at 00:01.
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Old 2011-08-25, 09:32   Link #129
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
It seems like you are putting way too much weight on very slight differences in score.

Ocean Waves is all the way down on page 17 of that list with a 7.22. Page 2 goes down to a score of 8. So from page 2 to 17 there is only a drop of .78. That is a .05 drop per page in an unscientific internet poll.

Looking at just the first couple pages is totally arbitrary.

The scores go until page 49, so you would put Ocean Waves in the 65th percentile.
The score is meaningless. As I said already, it's more about how it scores relative to other shows. I actually prefer ANN's list, it has less... irregularities then MAL. There Ocean Waves is in the top 22%, which is still not great. On the other hand, I've never heard anyone say anything great about Ocean Waves, in contrast to every other thing put out by Ghibli.

Quote:
I can guarantee you are missing tons of great anime using that method.
Either way I'm going to miss great Anime. I've just tried to craft a (relatively) impartial mechanism for trying out new Anime. It means I often try things that are not in my comfort zone.

Quote:
Even some of the most highly acclaimed anime of the 90s (Serial Experiments Lain, Crest of the Stars, Kare Kano, Jin-Roh, Master Keaton, Nadesico, Only Yesterday,...) didn't make the top 2 pages there.
Most of those are in the top 10%, or not far off.

Quote:
If you haven't already, I would suggest to keep going down the list, starting with Berserk, and then research the shows you missed on page 2, and then keep going because the score changes are so small it doesn't make sense to put a cut off there.
I only put a cut off at 10%, because I still haven't checked out everything above 10%, and I still won't have for a very long time.

The simple fact is, there's a lot of Anime, and I don't have the time to try it all. I want to minimize the amount of time I spend on things that are no good at all. By my estimate, if you just randomly picked Anime, you'd have a 1/20-1/10 chance of watching something you enjoy. Using my approach that goes up to 3/4 or so, and declines as you go down the list. I like those odds. And you watch most of the great anime fairly quickly. That's not to say MAL or ANN are the ultimate arbitrators on whether an Anime is good or not. They aren't, and I never would pretend they are.

I would consider it more of a probabilistic measure of your likelihood to enjoy anything on it. However you should also take genres into account. Some genres have artificially high ratings, and others artificially low. However if you take the genre aside and look purely how it compares to others of it's type, you get something more valuable.

I don't think there's a particularly better way to get at the wheat while avoiding the "chaff". And it gives me the benefit of seeing things I'd never see if I only followed particular creators I liked, or what other people are saying. It's not perfect, but I haven't seen a better system suggested by anyone else...
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Old 2011-08-25, 10:35   Link #130
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post

I wouldn't really describe myself as Anime fan anymore though, I'm more of an "Animation fan", given Japan has the largest Animation industry it's natural I gravitate to it... But I definitely prefer the stuff that doesn't emphasise traditional Anime clichés.

The reason I stay in Anime is that I think animation has more creative possibilities then any other filmed medium, as it seperates you from the boundaries of the physically possible, it allows for a more stylized representation of events that is perhaps truer to human thought. Animation truly allows the creator to unshackle their imagination from real world constraints.

And that's why I'll never grow out of it.
I know exactly what you mean.

Likewise, I'm more of an "animation fan" than an anime fan specifically. I've always loved animation. As a kid, I loved 80s saturday morning cartoons. In my teens, I enjoyed shows like Gargoyles, Sailor Moon, Batman: TAS, and DBZ (so as you can see, anime was only part of it).

However, Disney more or less gave up on 2D animation at some point, and DC's animated TV shows eventually came to an end, which has seriously limited western animation, imo.

Unlike western animation, anime goes to all sorts of places with animated stories: A full range of genres and tones from the very dark to the inspirational to the very realistic to the stunningly surreal to the
action-packed to the slice of life. Western animation simply doesn't do this any more, to the best of my knowledge, so anime is now where its at, for me.
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Old 2011-08-25, 11:28   Link #131
Akito Kinomoto
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I got into anime around 2006 with a variety of shows, half of them representing where the industry would go in the years after, and the other half showcasing where it's been before that point. My tastes were solidified before 08, so I never really noticed what type of content has been consistently produced until I look back it on now. I assume then, that no matter where the industry goes it'll be impossible for it to move past me.

Or so I'd like to think.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:59   Link #132
Afterstep
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I think "over saturation" is a good way to put it. Think of TV. Would you just watch absolutely anything put in front of you? If you did you'd be apt to think TV was all garbage. Ok, I haven't watched TV myself in years because I really do think it's garbage but even I have to admit that every now and then there's a god TV series (for watching on DVD).

There's a lot of the same stuff regurgitated, but there's usually a gem or two that comes to the surface. It's possible you might be tired of anime in general, but perhaps you just need to be pointed to the kinds of titles you like so you don't have to put up with the other junk. Older stuff really does offer some cool titles, and few of us have ever really gotten all the way through that catalog.
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:48   Link #133
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Just wanted to say this... I'm growing tired of ecchi animes.... Nothing but boobs there, boobs here and everywhere... Panties there and here...

Man, I guess too much is really bad....
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:01   Link #134
Azuma Denton
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Just wanted to say this... I'm growing tired of ecchi animes.... Nothing but boobs there, boobs here and everywhere... Panties there and here...

Man, I guess too much is really bad....
Most people will feel that way.
Give yourself a year watching a non-ecchi anime. You'll start missing it...
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:01   Link #135
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Just wanted to say this... I'm growing tired of ecchi animes.... Nothing but boobs there, boobs here and everywhere... Panties there and here...

Man, I guess too much is really bad....
I used to watch a lot of romantic comedies with ecchi content and I'm a big fan of them, but recently, I'm slightly growing out of it, it's not that I completely stop doing that, I try to limit myself from them, although I still do watch them from time to time varying the seasons.
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:04   Link #136
Traece
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Just wanted to say this... I'm growing tired of ecchi animes.... Nothing but boobs there, boobs here and everywhere... Panties there and here...

Man, I guess too much is really bad....
I was never the biggest fan of ecchi in the first place, but I kind of feel the same. I didn't mind the occasional bit of fan service before, but now it just annoys me.

Anime in general I've become more scrutinizing of. There used to be a time where I would almost always finish shows that I picked and even the ones I didn't like I generally watched through. Now I sometimes have to force myself to keep up with anime that I really do like. The other day I had to force myself to watch the two most recent episodes of Psycho-Pass because I knew if I didn't do it then, I might not do it for weeks.

To make matters worse, there's just so much crap now. When you've watched a good deal of anime from the 90s to present day, it gets harder and harder to find unique shows among the swathe of uninspired crap. I'm at the point now where if I see a character that resembles anyone in Haruhi, K-On, or Lucky Star, the only way I'll even consider giving it a chance is if the synopsis seriously intrigues me. I almost didn't watch Hyouka for this reason. Psycho-Pass is the first show in a long time that has really made me appreciate anime again. How I feel watching it reminds me of how I feel when Code Geass was airing back in the day, back when I was actually an active poster here on Asuki.
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:06   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Most people will feel that way.
Give yourself a year watching a non-ecchi anime. You'll start missing it...
I guess... I think its time to return back to decent animes ...

I think I have to start my H break as well....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traece View Post
I was never the biggest fan of ecchi in the first place, but I kind of feel the same. I didn't mind the occasional bit of fan service before, but now it just annoys me.
Yeah, like one action ecchi ninja anime currently running... I was so excited at first but the boobs are always in the way of the action... its like every scene has boobs and panties in it ... even in supposedly a dramatic scene... Pretty turning me off....
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:13   Link #138
Azuma Denton
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While i generally dont too excited about anime as i was in younger days, but i still grateful that there are still anime veterans keeps producing good title.
And of course, i still watched those "template" anime just to enjoy the voice of my favourite seiyuu...
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Old 2013-02-25, 10:00   Link #139
GDiddy
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Everything is either ecchi, moe or mecha nowadays.

Which is fine....we all like what we like. I don't mind ecchi or moe if I take them into small doses.


But you have to look hard to see something that's original and...I'm sorry if this sounds seriously snobbish as it's not the intention...more grown up.
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Old 2013-02-25, 13:04   Link #140
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Everything is either ecchi, moe or mecha nowadays.
This claim is patently false if you actually go through the list of shows each season, unless you apply hugely broad brushes and, for example, label everything as moe based on character design alone and eliminate all shows targeted at kids and families. Even then, it's still objectively false.

I'm not trying to say that it may not feel that way to you... but it isn't actually true.

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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
But you have to look hard to see something that's original and...I'm sorry if this sounds seriously snobbish as it's not the intention...more grown up.
This hasn't ever not been the case. Anime has never been particularly "original" or "grown up". The only difference is that, nowadays, you have access to the full fire hose of content that you have to sort through on your own, whereas things were much more curated in decades past due to the language barrier. Of course, the overall quantity of productions has also gone up now compared to 10+ years ago too, so that increases the triage as well.
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