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Old 2011-08-24, 02:58   Link #23901
AuraTwilight
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<_< I said magical murders.
Misread, my apologies.

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It's even more obvious that it isn't in the narrative if you consider how Erika is probably supposed to be the arm of the readership who crave for a cruel and logical answer (represented in spirit by Bern). She never even notices the bloody thing happening...she is wondering who might have killed the people in those rooms and if they ever died at all, so she just beheads them all...and later she searches for some stupid excuses like George being Kanon when we (the readers) actually just saw Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice merging to the narration of Zepar and Furfur how they are parts of one soul who must become one to fullfil their true love...
In fairness to Erika, she's also a character in the story. Her perspective as a player isn't 1:1 to any hypothetical readers, and she has displayed a willingness to skip over scenes anyway.

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I mean come on...if that was in the narrative and the readers in the Umineko universe didn't get it they'd have to be pretty darn dumb.
The populace in Umineko are EXTREMELY stupid. This has been something we've known since atleast EP4.

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No, actually it makes a lot more reliable, because you can actually say that everything presented to us as a magic scene is just a magical explanation of what is actually happening. Of course it could just be terrible bullshit and actually the scenes happened totally different than what we saw...but why the hell would a writer do that?! It's as if the things the little boy saw at the hotel in Shining wasn't actually developing the places past but was in fact just him having played too many violent videogames...
It makes things LESS reliable because it means we can't even trust that the text infront of our faces is stuff that was actually written down. It makes Ryukishi's work pretty much unsolvable because we can't discern what we should even bother reading until we reach the end of the story.

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Let's take an example I made up. Jessica is found dead in a room...and as an explanation I'll give you that Virgilia showed up in front of Jessica after Gaap had warped her into the room andforced her to choose whom of her parents should die. They are watching Krauss and Natsuhi through a magic mirror, because of course nobody with a master key was among them so they couldn't see what was happening in the room just opposite of the one their in, unless the doors were open. At the end, of course, Natsuhi is found dead in the other room.
There is a terribly easy explanation to this when you know the solutions and the magic version actually helps...you just have to use it correctly.
The problem with that is that the Magic scenes usually have symbolic hints and clues to what actually happened, and thus they do have value and purpose...but if they don't exist in the Forgeries, why are we reading them? What force is putting them there? Is Toya just making shit up in his head and not writing it down for some reason? Why would he do that? What's the fucking point?
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Old 2011-08-24, 07:58   Link #23902
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I'm going to respond to your post somewhat out of order.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually Dawn is not problematic at all, as long as you disregard BATTLERs crazy shennanigans with reviving Beatrice and restoring the lost love...probably all just for Bern so she is terribly, terribly confused and disgusted by all the sugarcoating and rather "eats her guts and dies".
Unless I misunderstand your theory, episode 6 seems pretty problematic for you, too. I am of the impression that you think that the meta world (complete with magical scenes) is all projected from Touya's mind. Then what's with episode 6 Miko-Ange? If BATTLER is merely meta-projecting the love duel story, rather than writing it, then how come Miko-Ange can read it?

Although, skimming through it again I pretty much came to the conclusion that the Ange-Ikuko/Featherine scenes were meta-meta. Like, truly meta between Ryuukishi (Featherine) and us (Ange). Definitely not laterally related with BATTLER's meta world like I suggested before.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No, actually it makes a lot more reliable, because you can actually say that everything presented to us as a magic scene is just a magical explanation of what is actually happening. Of course it could just be terrible bullshit and actually the scenes happened totally different than what we saw...but why the hell would a writer do that?! It's as if the things the little boy saw at the hotel in Shining wasn't actually developing the places past but was in fact just him having played too many violent videogames...
You kidding? Ask Ryuukishi. I mean, it's his fucking trademark.

Also because Yasu wants people to think Beatrice exists. And because Touya decided that it's best people don't know what actually happened. And what AuraTwilight said. And maybe 'cause it's just plain fun.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Let's take an example I made up. Jessica is found dead in a room...and as an explanation I'll give you that Virgilia showed up in front of Jessica after Gaap had warped her into the room and forced her to choose whom of her parents should die. They are watching Krauss and Natsuhi through a magic mirror, because of course nobody with a master key was among them so they couldn't see what was happening in the room just opposite of the one their in, unless the doors were open. At the end, of course, Natsuhi is found dead in the other room.
There is a terribly easy explanation to this when you know the solutions and the magic version actually helps...you just have to use it correctly.
Yes, magic scenes can be just as useful for solving individual puzzles regardless of whether they come from novel-text or they're limited purely to the meta-world.

However, written text indicates that the scene is meant to convey something. Written, the magic scenes are a coded message from Beatrice (at least in Legend and Turn) in the form of a challenge to Battler, with the ultimate goal of Battler unveiling Beatrice's true form; it was Yasu's shy way to get Battler to notice and understand her. The magical scenes lose this warm backdrop if they are instead generated entirely from Touya's own imagination, and they also lose their usefulness in understanding how Touya, Yasu, and Ange interact with each other and the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yes, the love duel is absolutely meta, which is also implied by chick-Beato entering it together with older sister Beato after they visited the meta-plane of Ange and Featherine and later being joined by BATTLER...not to mention being conducted by Zepar and Furfur who basically also exist as conductors on the meta-plane and don't exist as a physical presence on the island at all. It is basically just 3 people (Shkannontrice, George and Jessica) getting their shit together and finally trying to decide matters. Hell, the whole second half takes place while they are locked in different rooms...how is this not meta?!
Okay. I've reviewed episode 6. You're right. My doubts were unfounded and quite retarded. The duel is definitely meta.

However, I'm not convinced that the magic murder scenes are, as they are directly used to explain plot advancements in Dawn's 1986-Rokkenjima story, complete with Gaap teleporting Eva's corpse into the VIP room from outside. Yes, we all know they are not actually killed until Erika gets to them, but that's normal; a false magical narrative is a legitimate gamemaster's trick for trying to convince their opponents that witches exist.

In other words, if it was a purely meta-event, why does it go out of the way to create a fantasy narrative logically consistent with the mystery narrative?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's even more obvious that it isn't in the narrative if you consider how Erika is probably supposed to be the arm of the readership who crave for a cruel and logical answer (represented in spirit by Bern). She never even notices the bloody thing happening...she is wondering who might have killed the people in those rooms and if they ever died at all, so she just beheads them all...and later she searches for some stupid excuses like George being Kanon when we (the readers) actually just saw Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice merging to the narration of Zepar and Furfur how they are parts of one soul who must become one to fullfil their true love...
I mean come on...if that was in the narrative and the readers in the Umineko universe didn't get it they'd have to be pretty darn dumb.
Earlier on, Erika remarks how boring the love scenes are. After the first twilight she acts as though she's been asleep. Obviously something happened on the game board during the first twilight, which she slept through; she just didn't care to watch it. Why? Well, remember how automatically and completely she denies magic? Remember how in End she never bothers to investigate corpses? Remember how at the end of her red/blue battle with Battler in episode 8, she hadn't even thought about the answer until the last second? She simply doesn't think or approach problems like an even remotely normal person does; either she pays attention to something and understands it perfectly, or she completely overlooks it. And any magical narrative is automatically pure noise to her. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW CLEARLY IT'S SPELLED OUT TO HER; SHE WILL NEVER GET IT. As Will would say, "she ignores the heart".

However, a "good" reader, like Ange, gets it.

Interesting quotes from episode 6 Tea Party:
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Ange: It seems that island......really was a crazy island of illusions.
Affirms written magic narrative.
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Ikuko: As thanks for the considerable time you have given me, .........I will someday write your tale.
Ange: Am I going to appear in another of your forgeries? ......I hope you kill me in a slightly better way this time.
Whoa. Doesn't this pretty much confirm that episode 4's 1998 Ange was Hachijou fiction?
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Ange:..........That Featherine witch, who appeared within the tale. ......That's... you, right?
Ikuko: It may be presumptuous to say, but that was my intention.
Ange: This might be a strange question, but.... ummm... .........Are you Featherine? Or is Featherine you?
Ohhhh boy... Doesn't this mean the meta-narrative was written too?

It's still a bit uncertain, because it's hard to tell when episode 6 Ikuko/Featherine is truly speaking as "Hachijou Touya" and when she's speaking as Ryuukishi himself.
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Old 2011-08-24, 09:23   Link #23903
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
However, I'm not convinced that the magic murder scenes are, as they are directly used to explain plot advancements in Dawn's 1986-Rokkenjima story, complete with Gaap teleporting Eva's corpse into the VIP room from outside. Yes, we all know they are not actually killed until Erika gets to them, but that's normal; a false magical narrative is a legitimate gamemaster's trick for trying to convince their opponents that witches exist.
Problem #1: If we accept this, they're woefully incomplete. We're not shown how Battler died. Even the throwaway killings in ep3's First Twilight were briefly explained with a magic solution. The only thing we get is basically BATTLER euphemistically saying he got himself done with, and BATTLER is not a magic character.

Problem #2: Chick-Beato's existence makes no sense in the story outside of a meta context. Therefore any scene involving her fighting Natsuhi can't possibly make any sense. That means, at best, only the Rosa/Maria, Eva, and Kyrie killings are actually explained in the text if the "magical" scenes appear in it and the "meta" scenes don't. So basically either the meta stuff's in there, or the magic stuff isn't. Well... either that or several magic scenes were removed and at least one wholly replaced.

Problem #3: The setup of the First Twilight in ep6 seems to present a narrative puzzle that is more impactful if the successive discovery of the bodies hits the reader just as suddenly as it hits the characters. If Eva is killed outside and then warped into a closed room, the story seems to lose something. I'd argue the same about Banquet honestly, but we know why that magic scene was in there and it was really not for the benefit of Ryukishi's narrative.
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In other words, if it was a purely meta-event, why does it go out of the way to create a fantasy narrative logically consistent with the mystery narrative?
It's a valid question. I think it's reasonable to assume that magic scenes probably do show up in the text (I usually lean that way), but there are a lot of problems with that hypothesis even now. For example, explaining why Legend wouldn't have them when Turn does. Had the magic stuff started in Banquet, at least we'd have a different-author excuse. On the other hand, if the magic stuff is fundamental to the narrative, we run into problems with Legend, Banquet, and End, where you could strip out the magical narrative and retain the mystery more or less intact (as opposed to Turn and Alliance, where you really can't). With Dawn I don't think we saw enough of the original narrative to know, and there's no telling how many forgeries, meta-sequences, and random things were pooled together to form Requiem and Twilight.

Remember, we can't simply say Legend is an establishing story with magic scenes to come in later works, because:
  • We have no idea if it was the first message bottle story written, located, or publicized, and much more important...
  • The author had no way of knowing that Legend would be found first or found at all.
Unless, of course, the author of the message bottles had very strict control over which stories actually got published and could therefore both ensure Legend survived and was the first to get out.

It's a serious problem. Legend would be grossly incongruous with the rest of the series if it didn't come first. But the story we're told about the provenance of the message bottles makes it absolutely impossible to guarantee that it would be read first. It's not merely a question of a story being lost like Land; without Legend, literally none of the other stories make sense. So Legend is both first and, if magic scenes are integral to the text, completely different from every other story in not having any. Something's very wrong with that.

The only other solution is that Legend did have magic scenes, and the story skipped them (as when Shannon sees the butterflies and the story immediately cuts away) or edited them (like Kanon's death scene, which perhaps could have been longer originally).
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Earlier on, Erika remarks how boring the love scenes are. After the first twilight she acts as though she's been asleep. Obviously something happened on the game board during the first twilight, which she slept through; she just didn't care to watch it.
That's true, and it does seem to lend credence to that. Erika probably wouldn't ignore something she believed contained an actual hint.
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Whoa. Doesn't this pretty much confirm that episode 4's 1998 Ange was Hachijou fiction?

Ohhhh boy... Doesn't this mean the meta-narrative was written too?

It's still a bit uncertain, because it's hard to tell when episode 6 Ikuko/Featherine is truly speaking as "Hachijou Touya" and when she's speaking as Ryuukishi himself.
I don't think you want to take anything the meta characters say about the content of the fiction too authoritatively. After all, there's no way to know that what Featherine reads or writes, or what Bern and Lambda toy with, is actually the R-Prime fiction itself. Bern doesn't see forgeries as forgeries, remember, but as reality fragments. That would be a very different sort of narrative, at least to her perception, than a book would.
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Old 2011-08-24, 15:59   Link #23904
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only other solution is that Legend did have magic scenes, and the story skipped them (as when Shannon sees the butterflies and the story immediately cuts away) or edited them (like Kanon's death scene, which perhaps could have been longer originally).
Which would be, as we both already elaborated on, be incredibly strange if it was just cut from the narrative by some magical hand of fate we never get to meet. Well, we've been there and talked about it. I agree with you in most areas.

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I don't think you want to take anything the meta characters say about the content of the fiction too authoritatively.
Bern also says she put together the setting for EP7 and searched for Lion herself...which probably doesn't mean that another person from the infamous writers guild of Hachij˘s went out there and searched the records until she finds an old crumbled note written by Kinz˘ in which he conveniently revealed that he wanted to name his son...daughter...whatchamaycallit Lion.
Yasu/Battler-Beatrice also says that she is 1000 years old and that this story describes her revival in full details and this is all the truth...
Also it's not exactly Ikuko who's talking to Ange there...it's more an amalgation of THE author in form of Featherine. I think in those scenes she is much less Hachij˘ Ikuko and much more Featherine Augustus Aurora, the representation of the author himself.
And therefore I think we shouldn't only see what BATTLER or Yasu want us to see, because there is also another author and that is Ryűkishi. He might have been a little awkward when it came to showing us which scenario was which at which point...but it was still also a battler between us and him.
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Old 2011-08-24, 18:02   Link #23905
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Problem #1: If we accept this, they're woefully incomplete.
BATTLER has no obligation to provide fantasy narrative. In terms of precedent, we're given no magical explanation for Maria, Kumasawa, and Gohda's deaths in Alliance; no magical explanation for any deaths in End; no magical explanation for spontaneously materializing letters in several episodes; no magical explanation for why Nanjo and Kumasawa's corpses disappear from the kitchen in Turn; ect. ect.

It is notable that only Battler's explanation was left out of a set of related deaths; however, I believe that was intentional by our storyteller, BATTLER. Battler's "death" is already odd from a purely mystery standpoint as being the only male victim, and also strange from the standpoint that he has never died in any twilight of any story before. It also makes sense that BATTLER would want to draw Erika's attention to Battler if we are to follow the Genius Battler Theory. In the end, I don't think he's trying to weave an interesting mystery so much as he's trying to convey a message using the mystery/fantasy context, and leaving Battler's "death" unexplained is somehow intended to further this goal. Although Erika fails to get anything because she just tunnel-visions on the mystery.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem #2: Chick-Beato's existence makes no sense in the story outside of a meta context.
Having scenes that come out of nowhere has already happened before, numerous times. Remember when Kanon suddenly had a lightsaber arm?

Assuming my viewpoint is true (magic written, meta not), it is interesting to imagine what the reader is actually getting; imagine if all that we were presented with in episode 6 was the meta-discussions Erika was involved in plus anything that occurs in a Rokkenjima setting, with none of the love duel stuff and none of BATTLER's discussions in his meta-staffroom. What we get is kind of like Turn, isn't it? You know, what with the out of context and out of nowhere magical scenes... and then the trick to get out of the logic error is a lot like Banquet's trick to kill Nanjo. Except that now we get to see how these strange things happen from the gamemaster's standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem #3: The setup of the First Twilight in ep6 seems to present a narrative puzzle that is more impactful if the successive discovery of the bodies hits the reader just as suddenly as it hits the characters.
Like you said, it has precedent; and each time there's a fantasy aspect to the narrative it diminishes the impact of the mystery aspect. Although I have often been displeased with it myself, I think that the fantasy narratives have been presented as more or less equally important as the mystery narratives (it varies depending on the episode). And from a fantasy standpoint, wasn't it just cooler that George was fighting EVA outside in the rain? They need their space to maneuver, you know.

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It's a valid question. I think it's reasonable to assume that magic scenes probably do show up in the text (I usually lean that way), but there are a lot of problems with that hypothesis even now. For example, explaining why Legend wouldn't have them when Turn does. Had the magic stuff started in Banquet, at least we'd have a different-author excuse.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only other solution is that Legend did have magic scenes, and the story skipped them (as when Shannon sees the butterflies and the story immediately cuts away) or edited them (like Kanon's death scene, which perhaps could have been longer originally).
The Legend to Turn transition is a problem. Although, saying that fantasy scenes are all meta-projections doesn't completely solve it either. You still have to deal with the reader's rather strikingly different interpretation of Turn. Or, as you describe we can take things to Ryuukishi meta-level, but I am pretty loathe to do that here.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
On the other hand, if the magic stuff is fundamental to the narrative, we run into problems with Legend, Banquet, and End, where you could strip out the magical narrative and retain the mystery more or less intact (as opposed to Turn and Alliance, where you really can't).
Hmm... I don't agree at all for Turn. if all you do is follow Battler's direct experience, then it's totally a mystery, complete with mysterious crime scenes, closed rooms, and false witnesses (a ShKanon-Gohda-Genji-Rosa explanation works quite nicely). As for Alliance, well, you could make a story with just Battler in the cousin's room (almost) the whole time. There'd be no way to solve it though; it would just be a weird psychological horror story.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Remember, we can't simply say Legend is an establishing story with magic scenes to come in later works, because:
  • We have no idea if it was the first message bottle story written, located, or publicized, and much more important...
  • The author had no way of knowing that Legend would be found first or found at all.
Unless, of course, the author of the message bottles had very strict control over which stories actually got published and could therefore both ensure Legend survived and was the first to get out.
Hmm... well iirc, Legend was not found first. Turn was actually the novel said to have been discovered by the authorities right after the Rokkenjima incident, and it was Legend that was discovered 4 years later. Also, the first discovered novel (Turn) wasn't taken seriously until the second novel was discovered.

Actually... wow, this all makes sense. People did find Turn first, but considered it nonsense because of all the magical bullshit. Then they found Legend, which could be taken seriously by itself, and realized it was the same author, which made people take another look at Turn. In other words, as long as Legend is actually found, it doesn't matter what order they were discovered, because the fact that Legend is the foundation story is clearly self-evident.

As far as the author's delivery method ensuring that Legend be found... well for 4 years it wasn't found. If we're already willing to accept the idea that Yasu dropped her stories into the water with no guarantees that they would discovered, then it's no big change to imagine one story to be more important than the others.

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I don't think you want to take anything the meta characters say about the content of the fiction too authoritatively.
Well, yes. I'm hesitant to do so, but I also think that episode 6's Ange-level meta shouldn't be ignored completely as a source for hints either. Basically, I think there are two forms of discussion happening there: one is an Umineko meta-level discussion between meta-Ange and Auau/Ikuko and the other is true-meta level discussion between us readers (represented by Ange) and Ryuukishi (represented by Auaukuko). So, when Ange speaks indignantly about having been killed once before in the fictions, I think she's speaking for herself as Ange to "Hachijou Touya" and not as a representation of us readers to Ryuukishi.
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Old 2011-08-24, 18:44   Link #23906
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Hmm... well iirc, Legend was not found first. Turn was actually the novel said to have been discovered by the authorities right after the Rokkenjima incident, and it was Legend that was discovered 4 years later. Also, the first discovered novel (Turn) wasn't taken seriously until the second novel was discovered.

Actually... wow, this all makes sense. People did find Turn first, but considered it nonsense because of all the magical bullshit. Then they found Legend, which could be taken seriously by itself, and realized it was the same author, which made people take another look at Turn. In other words, as long as Legend is actually found, it doesn't matter what order they were discovered, because the fact that Legend is the foundation story is clearly self-evident.
Right. Now keep that in the back of your mind because it's actually pretty damn important.
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As far as the author's delivery method ensuring that Legend be found... well for 4 years it wasn't found. If we're already willing to accept the idea that Yasu dropped her stories into the water with no guarantees that they would discovered, then it's no big change to imagine one story to be more important than the others.
Well I'm not willing to accept that, because it's utter fucking nonsense. Pardon my French*, but that notion severely underestimates the probable cleverness of the message bottle author. In fact, I'd say taking at face value the idea that Beatrice or the person behind her is actually fickle or resigned to fate is eating a turd sandwich the author herself is trying to feed to you. It's not something I can accept because it seems like it's trying to fool me into believing it.

The truth is, Beatrice/"Beatrice"/"Ushiromiya Maria" is a fairly clever person who seems quite adept at planning ahead. So we're just to accept that the establishing story, apparently the only one of its kind ever found (Turn isn't and Land apparently wasn't supposed to be), might have gone missing by random chance, wrecking not just that one story but every other story that might possibly be found? Please.

Look, if you're dealing with a woman who can set up bank accounts and arrange return-to-sender payout mailings, it's a lot easier to buy her paying off a fisherman to "find" and release Legend at some predetermined date in the future. And that's assuming she didn't just survive in the first place and make sure it was "found" herself. Entrusting to fate my exquisitely-sculpted ass.

(* the etymology of "fuck" may not, in fact, be French; I happen to know it is of Germanic origin, don't ask me how, but "pardon my Old Germanic Languages" doesn't have the same je nais se quoi, and you can indeed pardon that French)
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:49   Link #23907
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Well I'm not willing to accept that, because it's utter fucking nonsense. Pardon my French*, but that notion severely underestimates the probable cleverness of the message bottle author
I should have emphasized that first "If" of this part:

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If we're already willing to accept the idea that Yasu dropped her stories into the water with no guarantees that they would discovered, then it's no big change to imagine one story to be more important than the others.
I'm mainly arguing that we can have Legend be the establishing story even if Yasu actually uses the bottles-by-sea method and even if Legend is not the first story discovered. And this is in fact what the narrative suggests to us: Turn is found in 1986 and ignored; then Legend is found 4 years later and hyped; then Turn's relevance is reevaluated and it also gains legitimacy. You don't have to believe that narrative (and probably shouldn't; I am plenty skeptical about it myself). And of course if it was all orchestrated then there is no question at all that Legend would be successfully distributed.

However.

We're talking about some emotionally isolated inbred identity-confused penis-less man-girl in love with 3 of her cousins at once here. She might be capable of setting up bank accounts, but she's still coocoo. How could it not be at least possible that she would leave her message-bottles' discoveries to chance? I have a lot more trouble believing that stories could be properly prepared when they couldn't have even been started until 1-3 days before the conference (based on the weather predictions and the prediction of Ange's absence).

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The truth is, Beatrice/"Beatrice"/"Ushiromiya Maria" is a fairly clever person who seems quite adept at planning ahead. So we're just to accept that the establishing story, apparently the only one of its kind ever found (Turn isn't and Land apparently wasn't supposed to be), might have gone missing by random chance, wrecking not just that one story but every other story that might possibly be found? Please.
I will elaborate on my own quote above.

If (and I mean if) Yasu actually uses such an unreliable method as bottles-by-sea to deliver her work, then whether she's got everything riding on one single story being discovered, or one of three (that's an acceptable number, right?; Legend, Turn, and Land), it doesn't change the fact that she chose to use a decidedly unreliable method of distribution (when she has access to reliable methods). Indeed the probabilities differ, but it doesn't significantly change the character of the action.
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Old 2011-08-26, 03:10   Link #23908
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\Or, if none of the magic scenes ever are part of the original stories, then the magic layer is literally a subordinate interpretive layer of the meta-world, a literal "game board" on which human characters are elevated and magic characters projected down, in which the Game Master presents an interpretation of events based on the fiction and the player attempts to debunk it. Looked at this way, Meta-Beatrice's arrival at the end of ep1 and subsequent challenge in ep2 take on something of a different tenor.
I just wanted to say that this is the perspective that my viewpoint is saturated in. It is this setting that fuels my wonder for Umineko.
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Old 2011-08-26, 16:56   Link #23909
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For any interpretation of the meta-world being in some way a reflection of Touya's mind, it truly is strange how Touya seems to be playing the game with himself once he starts becoming part of the writing process. And if we are to go a bit further and believe that fantasy elements are not written, but projected (an idea not without its merits) then it seems even more strange to imagine that Touya was expressing himself through a conventional mystery while keeping his fantasy interpretation unexpressed. I suppose there is also the matter of Ikuko, who would act as a filter between Touya's ideas and what is actual put to writing.
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Old 2011-08-26, 19:58   Link #23910
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Ah man, so many posts to read through that I don't completely understand yet because I haven't read ep8.


I really hoped that the Meta-World was really some 10th dimensional story of characters that took precedence over the actual universe(sorta) and that fragments were really existent.

But that's hard to believe with these new theories about the matters.

Now, when you guys say ''Fantasy'' and ''Meta'', you seem to act like they're different, is this because you're talking about Fantasy being on the lines of ''Kanon dueling with a goat'', and Meta being ''Battler complaining to Beatrice when he sees a murder''?

If so, are scenes like EP5's court of illusions Fantasy, or Meta? For that matter, what about the fight between Dlanor and Battler, when Battler supposedly resurrects? Is that Fantasy or Meta?

I could see it as being Meta by some mystery expert correcting Battler's reasoning by quoting the Knox's(Dlanor fighting Battler), but it also felt REALLY Fantasy to me.

Maybe you guys mean: ''Meta= Red and Blue fights'' while Fantasy= ''Bullcrap scenes in the story like Kanon swordfighting a goat''?

Just trying to confirm the specific points here.
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Old 2011-08-26, 20:44   Link #23911
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Now, when you guys say ''Fantasy'' and ''Meta'', you seem to act like they're different, is this because you're talking about Fantasy being on the lines of ''Kanon dueling with a goat'', and Meta being ''Battler complaining to Beatrice when he sees a murder''?
Yes. Fantasy basically refers to magical stuff that happens inside the narrative (whether or not that 'narrative' is part of the actual Forgeries the Witch Hunters are reading).

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If so, are scenes like EP5's court of illusions Fantasy, or Meta? For that matter, what about the fight between Dlanor and Battler, when Battler supposedly resurrects? Is that Fantasy or Meta?
Both of those are Meta.

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Maybe you guys mean: ''Meta= Red and Blue fights'' while Fantasy= ''Bullcrap scenes in the story like Kanon swordfighting a goat''?
Basically, Fantasy scenes are scenes that take place "on Rokkenjima", while Meta-scenes are purely in a higher plane of existence.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:18   Link #23912
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That makes episode 6 a lot more confusing, because in order to kill Kyrie, Jessica acknowledged she had to make a ''closed room murder'' to justify the Fantasy scene.(Well, she was in a situation where closed room would be the only answer to the Fantasy scene).
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:55   Link #23913
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So? The power of magic requires that humans believe it. If you want your magic to work, it has to look like it was done with magic. On Rokkenjima, closed rooms are the most practical way to pull this off.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:55   Link #23914
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I really hoped that the Meta-World was really some 10th dimensional story of characters that took precedence over the actual universe(sorta) and that fragments were really existent.
There's nothing wrong with this viewpoint at all. My personal belief is that Ryuukishi intended this to be a valid interpretation, while also having a "single fragment" interpretation be valid at the same time. You could even say it's a cat box with both possibilities existing at once, like how the events of Rokkenjima can be both fantasy and mystery at the same time. However, like the mystery elements of the individual episodes, the "single fragment" interpretation requires actual solving, which is why it gets so much of my attention.

But I'll repeat: What you describe is a completely valid and intended interpretation of Umineko.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Now, when you guys say ''Fantasy'' and ''Meta'', you seem to act like they're different, is this because you're talking about Fantasy being on the lines of ''Kanon dueling with a goat'', and Meta being ''Battler complaining to Beatrice when he sees a murder''?
Whether or not there is a distinction between Fantasy and Meta is itself one of the main matters of the current debate. Assuming there is a distinction though, you've got the fundamentals right.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Basically, Fantasy scenes are scenes that take place "on Rokkenjima", while Meta-scenes are purely in a higher plane of existence.
There are some parts which are difficult to distinguish, though, such as the long red/blue fight in Kinzo's room in episode 5, since it feels really meta, but takes place on Rokkenjima.


And on to something else

So, I replayed episode 8's "????" and noticed/remembered a couple important things that bear heavily on the topics of recent discussion.

Kotobuki Yukari (Ange) remembered playing with Maria and her stuffed animal Sakutarou. Hachijou Touya recognized that the author of "Sakutarou's Great Adventure" had to be none other than Ange. So:

-Sakutarou was in fact made up by Maria (not by Touya as I had theorized)
-Touya somehow knew of Sakutarou (even though he had never known Maria at the same time as Sakutarou "existed")
-Ange would know of Sakutarou regardless of whether she had access to Maria's diary or not
-Which also implies a considerably greater possibility of Ange being well familiar with Mariage Sorciere even without Maria's diary

Also of note is the fact that "Hachijou Touya" is only referred to as an author of mystery novels (推理小説) and nothing is mentioned of "Hachijou Touya"'s work including any fantasy elements. This is strong evidence that fantasy elements are purely a meta-projection.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
That makes episode 6 a lot more confusing, because in order to kill Kyrie, Jessica acknowledged she had to make a ''closed room murder'' to justify the Fantasy scene.(Well, she was in a situation where closed room would be the only answer to the Fantasy scene).
Yeah, she even does things like talks with Ronove about Beatrice's definition of a closed room, yells out to Zefar and Furfur who aren't there, and has narration referring to pieces on a game-board. It's definitely meta-speak. Yet it happens on Rokkenjima and offers a fantasy explanation for the narrative.

There's also the part of Alliance where Kanon and Shannon talk about their experiences in past stories as well.

So yeah, this stuff really hurts some of my theories. But I have to say that Alliance would be pretty damn shitty as a pure mystery. It would be shitty as a theory too, since Eva's death flags it as obvious fiction.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-26 at 22:21.
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Old 2011-08-26, 22:17   Link #23915
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Touya somehow knew of Sakutarou (even though he had never known Maria at the same time as Sakutarou "existed")
This is easy to explain.
Battler and Ange met when Ange was still a child. Ange said to Battler she had played with Maria and her stuffed lion Sakutarou, which Maria believes to be capable of talking but that, when she had gotten bored with Maria pretending Sakutarou could talk, she had informed her Kirye had told her Sakutarou couldn't talk.
Later Battler goes on Rokkenjima, there's the Rokkenjima incident, he becomes Toya and, among the fragments he remembers there's that Maria had a 'talking' stuffed lion.

Going on. While he was on Rokkenjima Prime he might have asked Rosa where was Maria's lion and she might have told him it broke but that she had made for her another which she had forgotten on the boat.

As Toya, after hearing rumors about how bad of a mother Rosa was he might have joined this bit of memory with the assumption Rosa broke Sakutarou and you have Sakutarou story.
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Old 2011-08-26, 23:09   Link #23916
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Quote:
Kotobuki Yukari (Ange) remembered playing with Maria and her stuffed animal Sakutarou. Hachijou Touya recognized that the author of "Sakutarou's Great Adventure" had to be none other than Ange. So:

-Sakutarou was in fact made up by Maria (not by Touya as I had theorized)
-Touya somehow knew of Sakutarou (even though he had never known Maria at the same time as Sakutarou "existed")
-Ange would know of Sakutarou regardless of whether she had access to Maria's diary or not
-Which also implies a considerably greater possibility of Ange being well familiar with Mariage Sorciere even without Maria's diary
Dick response: The ???? of EP8 was a forgery Toya wrote to give himself closure. Everything inside is completely made up. ahaha.wav

Quote:
Also of note is the fact that "Hachijou Touya" is only referred to as an author of mystery novels (推理小説) and nothing is mentioned of "Hachijou Touya"'s work including any fantasy elements. This is strong evidence that fantasy elements are purely a meta-projection.
Umineko is a mystery novel with fantasy conceits. Just because they aren't mentioned doesn't mean it's not there, and their being there doesn't make the stories non-Mystery.
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Old 2011-08-27, 02:48   Link #23917
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
There's nothing wrong with this viewpoint at all. My personal belief is that Ryuukishi intended this to be a valid interpretation, while also having a "single fragment" interpretation be valid at the same time. You could even say it's a cat box with both possibilities existing at once, like how the events of Rokkenjima can be both fantasy and mystery at the same time. However, like the mystery elements of the individual episodes, the "single fragment" interpretation requires actual solving, which is why it gets so much of my attention.

But I'll repeat: What you describe is a completely valid and intended interpretation of Umineko.
I don't think you know that, nor can you say that. Ryukishi may have intended that. He may not. The story runs up against uncountable thematic problems if that interpretation is true, however, which makes it seem unlikely that he did intend that.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Umineko is a mystery novel with fantasy conceits. Just because they aren't mentioned doesn't mean it's not there, and their being there doesn't make the stories non-Mystery.
Having said that, we don't know whether the Hachijou mysteries do contain fantastic elements. It's also possible he writes other books that aren't Rokkenjima-related and that those have no fantasy elements. Not a whole lot to say about the corpus of his work since we largely have no idea what it's like.

However, there's nothing that would exclude it from his works, at the least.
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Old 2011-08-27, 03:21   Link #23918
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I don't think you know that, nor can you say that. Ryukishi may have intended that. He may not.
I don't know it, but I can sure say it. Especially when I use qualifiers like "my personal belief is that".
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The story runs up against uncountable thematic problems if that interpretation is true, however, which makes it seem unlikely that he did intend that.
Like what?
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Old 2011-08-27, 15:36   Link #23919
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
-Sakutarou was in fact made up by Maria (not by Touya as I had theorized)
-Touya somehow knew of Sakutarou (even though he had never known Maria at the same time as Sakutarou "existed")
-Ange would know of Sakutarou regardless of whether she had access to Maria's diary or not
-Which also implies a considerably greater possibility of Ange being well familiar with Mariage Sorciere even without Maria's diary
I would still say that the diary was in Ange's possession, however it ended up there.
Basically everything that T˘ya seems to know he could have learned from Yasu or Maria during his stay on 1986 Rokkenjima. I still lean towards the theory that he actually had some time to look into her diary...there must be a reason why it survived the accident. And it being a source of Beatrice's magic, I highly doubt Maria would have left it at home.

The problem with Ange not possessing the diary is that she had no immediate knowledge of Mariage Sorciere. She was supposed to become a member but it seems like she was expelled before the first actual meeting...at least it's implied by the Maria/Ange plot. Ange didn't seem to have any memory ever meeting "Beatrice" or any of the magical friends before.
Though of course had she taken part in any of the meetings and just forgot about it because she was too young and found it boring (basically it's just Maria, Yasu and Kumasawa drinking tea and drawing some pictures)...this would give even more credence to the Kyrie culprit theory, because her daughter could have told her about there being someone playing out the part of Beatrice.
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Old 2011-08-27, 15:57   Link #23920
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The problem with Ange not possessing the diary is that she had no immediate knowledge of Mariage Sorciere. She was supposed to become a member but it seems like she was expelled before the first actual meeting...at least it's implied by the Maria/Ange plot. Ange didn't seem to have any memory ever meeting "Beatrice" or any of the magical friends before.
I think that's a flawed argument, though. If Tohya chose to write about "what Ange would have been like if she'd had Maria's diary", then even if the real Ange didn't have the diary, there isn't any problem with the fictional Ange knowing about Mariage Sorciere, right?
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