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Old 2011-08-16, 19:37   Link #21
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Episode 20 was... well, not really to my liking considering the changes they have made.
Putting Nae aside, didn't they screw a bit Braun's characterization?
It has been a while I didn't read S;G, but I'm certain he was more like regretting using Moeka and betraying Suzu's trust by doing SERN's bidding.

What's more is that, objectively speaking, Braun had no real reason to kill Moeka even in the anime, considering he was ready to kill himself anyway, so there wasn't really any duty for him to kill Moeka.
Of course, I realize they tried to kill Moeka in that fashion so they would be able to skip Nae's tidbit, it is definitely odd to say the least.

Anyone can confirm that train of thought? The more I think about it, the more I can't help but think they did a MAJOR retcon here, similarly to the purpose of the IBN5100 to begin with.
No I don't think they screwed with Braun's characterisation as I think Braun letting Moeka live or die either way is his way of feeling sorry for Moeka. In the game obviously he choose to let her live because he sort of saw Moeka as a half-daughter and would at least hope that she can redeem herself and live on, but actually if that is the case that would be a plot hole in the game because in the game Braun also said that Rounders don't let members live when the mission is complete, so him letting her go was actually not particularly merciful since someone else would get to Moeka (or she would committee suicide, but that's irrelevant as the main point is there was no way that Rounders would let her live). On the other hand if going by the explanation that Rounders don't let ANYONE live, then him killing Moeka in the anime can be seen as him showing mercy to Moeka because who knows what length the Rounders would go to to hunt Moeka down, so the least he could do is gave her a fast and relatively painless exit. Either way Braun's character is written such that even though he might have slightly regretted his actions for working for Rounders, but since he is pretty no nonsense and he has reached the end of the line that he won't be the type to moan over the many years of things he had done before just in the last minute, so no I don't think they screwed him up at all, in fact the anime could be argued to have been handled better.

EDIT: Obviously the game also made Braun let Moeka live because they also wanted to have psycho Nae for the impact. But as I said before, that would actually be unreasonable since Braun would've known that Moeka would be killed by Rounders, so trying to explain Braun letting Moeka live because he felt sorry for using her doesn't really fly.
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Old 2011-08-17, 09:56   Link #22
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Honestly, I have hard time to consider Braun's behavior as "feeling sorry for Moeka" considering he was pretty much nonchalant while killing her in the anime.
Perhaps I'm a bit too focused on how he expressed himself, but it was a tad difficult to sense empathy from him at that moment.

Also, I still can't see any proper reasoning for his action, because only Braun knows about Moeka's betrayal. For all they know, Moeka could potentially live on alone or stay with the member labs (of course, we watchers know her fate was sealed in that world line anyway.
I don't think Moeka was even considered as a threat among the rounders or for SERN, not they would expect her to betray them, otherwise, she wouldn't be able to keep company to Okabe.

Of course, that's my interpretation of the elements given in the anime and usual "your milage may vary" can be applied here. However, I'm still not convinced entirely, regarding the plot purpose of that incident, aside of skipping Nae's scene.
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Old 2011-08-17, 14:58   Link #23
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Braun also said once a mission is complete, you die. All the other Rounders would know her mission is complete, so she'd be taken care of.
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Old 2011-08-17, 18:25   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Honestly, I have hard time to consider Braun's behavior as "feeling sorry for Moeka" considering he was pretty much nonchalant while killing her in the anime.
Perhaps I'm a bit too focused on how he expressed himself, but it was a tad difficult to sense empathy from him at that moment.

Also, I still can't see any proper reasoning for his action, because only Braun knows about Moeka's betrayal. For all they know, Moeka could potentially live on alone or stay with the member labs (of course, we watchers know her fate was sealed in that world line anyway.
I don't think Moeka was even considered as a threat among the rounders or for SERN, not they would expect her to betray them, otherwise, she wouldn't be able to keep company to Okabe.

Of course, that's my interpretation of the elements given in the anime and usual "your milage may vary" can be applied here. However, I'm still not convinced entirely, regarding the plot purpose of that incident, aside of skipping Nae's scene.
I consider it the other way around - it is the game that specifically wrote Braun letting Moeka live to have psycho Nae, since otherwise the plot holes are pretty glaring.

If you consider Rounders as an organisation, if they demand that their members die after a mission is complete, that says the organisation simply doesn't trust ANY of its members and what they do or did, so it is illogical to think that Rounders doesn't know what Braun is up to nor won't keep track of who he recruited or how he used them. Secondly if they go to the point of killing even *successful* members, then it should be reasoned that they simply considers *everyone* who knows and are involved in the retrieval of the IBN5100 a potential threat or leak, so whether Moeka betrayed them or not wouldn't have been an issue (as stated by Braun anyway). By these reasoning, even if Moeka doesn't commit suicide she *has* to be killed by Rounders because from the other timelines we know she knows quite a bit about Rounders and its relationship with SERN, as well as the primary mission. Now in the game although they try to write it such that Braun felt a little sympathy towards Moeka (or at least some attachment, otherwise they wouldn't have converge the timelines to have Braun accepted her in the Steins;Gate line), but given what we do know about the extent Rounders goes to to keep its mission a secret it is simply illogical to think that Braun would let Moeka live out of any feelings towards her and hoping she lives, since he has to know she was going to die either way (either suicide or be killed by Rounders), especially if he is so afraid of the reach of Rounders that he never quit due to his fear for Nae's safety he must be sure that there is no way that Moeka would survive. So that is already a conflict in his actions/goal. If you have to say that Braun didn't kill Moeka out of feelings for her then it can only be because 1) he has and loves his daughter Nae, so Moeka's attachment to him overlapped with his own parental instincts causing him to feel something towards her, or 2) he doesn't want the possibility of Nae seeing him kill anyone; these feelings are the only reason I can see why he didn't pull the trigger on Moeka in his house in the game. Now number 1 is already proven to not work since he must know Rounders would go at Moeka, this leaves 2. However this makes the game setting in complete conflict with his goals of protecting Nae, and it also makes no sense to say he felt sorry for Moeka so he doesn't kill her - the way that Braun took all the lab members somewhere else should be the first thing he wants to do if he wants to protect Nae, so the anime firstly handled this much more rationally. I think the game only wrote that setting just so that Nae would see her father die in front of Moeka and Okabe which give reason for her to go psycho in the future and come back to kill Moeka - in other words it is purely contrived for the sake of making psycho Nae come true.

Also another possible reason which would lead Braun to kill Moeka would be he sees "tying up lose ends" would give Rounders less reasons to go after his family. All in all I think the anime handle this situation MUCH better than the game. Psycho loli was fun, but plot wise it really doesn't fit nor make sense given the settings after some careful thinking.
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Old 2011-08-18, 13:25   Link #25
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Have they ever revealed who tried to stab kurisu or who is going to stab kurisu? Also have they ever revealed why kurisu worked for SERN in the future?
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:13   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Also another possible reason which would lead Braun to kill Moeka would be he sees "tying up lose ends" would give Rounders less reasons to go after his family. All in all I think the anime handle this situation MUCH better than the game. Psycho loli was fun, but plot wise it really doesn't fit nor make sense given the settings after some careful thinking.
I never said Yangire Nae was anything good, I was basically neutral to it, past its shock factor.
What bugs me a lot is how they made Braun hardly empathic whatsoever.
Regardless how "certain" she would be killed in the end, from the perspective of someone such like Braun, it hardly looked like some mercy kill whatsoever.

The game wasn't a writing monument in that scene either, but at least it doesn't make Braun dragging Moeka to the grave for reasons like this.

Furthermore, we have no clear picture how rounders are organized, especially that Braun was managing everyone with -just mails-. That alone makes the tracking of each member far more annoying. Of course, it is very likely that SERN could potentially tail information circulation with Braun's phone, and I don't discard the fact that Moeka was likely to be killed by SERN goon.
However, it doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to live a bit on her own or with Okabe's company (in a CHARACTER perspective. As viewer perspective, we knew already her fate is sealed anyway).

As I implied: the fact someone is "destined to die" is hardly an excuse to kill them especially in such fashion. That's not even close to last rites etc.
But hey, that's how I saw it, and never said "VN is superior": I would have less problem if Braun in the anime would apologize and "mercy kill" her, instead of "Traitors die, end of the story". Perhaps the directing was awkward I dunno, but that approach was shown in a flat fashion, imho.
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Old 2011-08-18, 18:27   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I never said Yangire Nae was anything good, I was basically neutral to it, past its shock factor.
What bugs me a lot is how they made Braun hardly empathic whatsoever.
What I don't get is why do you want Braun to be empathic? He already acknowledge that he became a dog for SERN because of the things he had gone through. He had chosen to do the things purely for Nae and he wasn't regretting it one bit as far as I can tell, heck in all versions he had basically given the vibe that if given another chance he would do the *same thing* because you know the talk where he told Kurisu and Mayuri that Okabe is a lucky bastard for being so care free and just mess around with his lab friends and about how he smacked down Okabe about sleeping out in the cold, not being able to eat, SERN/Rounders offering the last life line? He surely didn't seem to be apologetic about his choices to me, instead he's already fully justified his own actions - he did these things to survive and to keep Nae alive, any little things that would contribute to these goals he would do and that's all that mattered to him.

Quote:
Regardless how "certain" she would be killed in the end, from the perspective of someone such like Braun, it hardly looked like some mercy kill whatsoever.
That's the thing, the game made it look like he suddenly came around to feel sympathetic towards Moeka to let her live, but to me it only looks like they wrote an out for Moeka so they could have psycho Nae, which is why I said the motivation of game Braun is contradictory and contrived. Whereas the anime Braun's action is much more logical because in both medium he was supposed to be the father that is so desperate he would do anything to save his daughter, even if it meant becoming a murderer for a questionable society that one of his life-saving friend was fighting against, little minor details of killing one person doesn't seem like something that would actually bother him if you ask me.

Quote:
Furthermore, we have no clear picture how rounders are organized, especially that Braun was managing everyone with -just mails-. That alone makes the tracking of each member far more annoying.
SERN has the freaking Echelon, I don't think it would be THAT hard for them. Plus all the other little things about SERN's reach in Japan from direct optical cables and the 300 member committees to overriding the local police in the game? I think tapping a mobile phone of their *own* member to track some emails is hardly outside of their reach. And again, just from the simple fact that they demand the members of Rounders operation to die and Braun being scared of their reach to never consider leaving the organisation means they sure as hell are going to be pretty thorough when it comes to cleaning house and keeping tabs.

Quote:
However, it doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to live a bit on her own or with Okabe's company (in a CHARACTER perspective. As viewer perspective, we knew already her fate is sealed anyway).
But I've already given you a bunch of reasons why, even in the CHARACTER perspective, Braun, as a member of Rounders, has no reasons to believe that Moeka could/should live. As he said Moeka was a traitor and was his direct responsibility, and even if she wasn't her mission had been completed - he said so HIMSELF in the anime scene! so Braun, as a CHARACTER, knows that she MUST die, either by his hands or by other Rounder members.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2011-08-18 at 18:40.
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Old 2011-08-19, 13:36   Link #28
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you know at the ending of the game where okabe roll can capsule for metal doll shouldnt the attractor field attractor that too since the first okabe experinced rolling out metal doll
could be just a plothole like small shit dont get attracted lol
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Old 2011-08-21, 08:06   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I never said Yangire Nae was anything good, I was basically neutral to it, past its shock factor.
What bugs me a lot is how they made Braun hardly empathic whatsoever.
Why does he have to be empathic?

Braun never struck me as a likable character, which is why I found it easy to accept the FB reveal. It's no crime for an antagonist to be a genuinely bad guy.

The key is to be able to get the antagonist's motives, even if they're not particularly easy to empathize or sympathize with (when considered in the light of the antagonist's actions). And we have that, at least, with Braun, as houkoholic pointed out.
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Old 2011-08-27, 22:05   Link #30
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It will be great if anime pull out reverse staff roll like in the game in next ep. lol
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Old 2011-08-31, 18:57   Link #31
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Any speculation on why Nae was taken out?

I suspect that Nae traveling via Time Leap is too far fetched as the Nae in the Future can NEVER know when the Nae in the past received the message.

So hence it is IMPOSSIBLE that Nae can use the Time Leap.
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Old 2011-08-31, 20:36   Link #32
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Any speculation on why Nae was taken out?

I suspect that Nae traveling via Time Leap is too far fetched as the Nae in the Future can NEVER know when the Nae in the past received the message.

So hence it is IMPOSSIBLE that Nae can use the Time Leap.
It's not uncommon for kids to have their own cellphones in Japan, and considering that Mr. Braun is a single parent it's not far fetched to assume that Nae most definitely has her own cellphone which she carries all the time.

I think time constrain is still the main reason, but like I've argued before even not considering the time constrain it just seems unlikely and contrived that when Okabe and Moeka confronted Mr. Braun that the overtly protective Braun would even create the chance for Nae to see himself commit suicide and/or let Moeka live in the first place.
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Old 2011-08-31, 20:39   Link #33
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Also.. seeing little kid shooting people in japan, even as an anime, is not in good taste...
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Old 2011-08-31, 21:10   Link #34
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Also.. seeing little kid shooting people in japan, even as an anime, is not in good taste...
And Nae knifed Moeka, which makes it even more questionable.
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Old 2011-09-01, 11:24   Link #35
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Oh Crap, I forgot about the SD incident. Oh yah, no knifing by little kids.

Still don't believe Nae could use the Time leap as she could never verify that it worked.
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Old 2011-09-01, 14:29   Link #36
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And technically the anime is heading toward True end, where Yanguire Nae would not exist.
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Old 2011-09-01, 18:10   Link #37
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And technically the anime is heading toward True end, where Yanguire Nae would not exist.
The seed for Psycho Nae existence in the world line where Moeka sends a d-mail to herself notifying the location of the IBN5100, it's got nothing to do with True End or not. In fact you have to see Psycho Nae kill Moeka while going for the Mayuri/Kirisu/True End in the game, the story to how Nae goes psycho though is triggered after taking Braun's cellphone and seeing Psycho Nae knifed and killed Moeka Okabe (the player) gets to choose whether to find out what happened to Nae before sending the d-mail to cancel Moeka's d-mail, and no matter which option you choose the story then progresses to the Mayuri/Kurisu/TE common route.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:07   Link #38
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Ah so the Nae route is optional. Well that explains it.
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Old 2011-09-13, 17:24   Link #39
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Wow! They really changed it within the time constraints. Here are the ones that stood out most for me.

1. The talk with Mayuri in the lab (I think he just sent her off to get supplies in the vn?)

That was really touching with more hints of retained memories between time lines. Those exchanges about what Kurisu was/is to Okabe made a good sendoff.

On another note, that saber was a much different length than I expected lol.

2. Standoff with Nakabachi (threatening both or just Nakabachi)

I am more appreciative of the anime's method in hindsight. Without memories of spending time with Okabe, imo it would be harder to swallow that you go looking for someone that threatened to kill you.

It still hurt to watch him dig into his wound for more blood.

3. Less separation between epilogue and credits. (Suzuha starts the time machine and it rolls to a black screen credits.)

Highlighting that there was a chance for a miserable future did a lot for me in the visual novel. Another Heaven by Kanako Itou was easier to appreciate while wondering whether or not they had reached Steins Gate.


4. Epilogue (Mayurii is only present in lab for epilogue, and her search for Okabe is only mentioned within dialogue)

You miss out on details of events that took place during Okabe's stay in the hospital, so there's less build up to the final scene with Kurisu. (At the time of playing the VN, I didn't really care so much what happened to Rukako and company, but it did make a difference seeing the events a second time around.)

4. Final Scene

Seeing her clutch the pin badge in her hand did justice for me. I can't remember whether or not you actually see that in the vn.

However, there was more speculation with the dialogue. She still says "It's not Christina or assistant", but they don't have same level of startled response to the mysterious words. Instead, Okabe readily hands her the badge with a welcome back.
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Old 2012-01-09, 14:42   Link #40
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A bit of backstory on Faris' dad, Dr. Nakabachi and Hashida Suzu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWUt...feature=relmfu

I just found out about the drama CD's. I was always wondering why the time line would sometimes change to ridiculous lengths by a seemingly innocent mail (Faris route ending).

Going on the info seen in this part of the drama cd, we can see possible links to the consequences that Faris' dad's death, or survival, would have had on the future, since Doctor Nakabachi's thesis is a major plot point.

If Nakabachi could keep on researching and got a time machine, he could go back in time and screw things up, after all. If Okabe accidentally causes this, then the timeline would diverge a huge amount with just 1 mail.

I don't know, though. My thinking is pretty shallow at the moment, but it's food for thought, at least.


On a side note, I'm hoping that further watching of drama cd's might clear things up more, since I'm still wondering about the activation of Reading Steiner when Okabe was 8. I'd rather not accept that Mayuri's wish changed the timeline, so that Okabe wouldn't die (Fantasy Elements in My Scientific Time Travel Visual Novel?). I'd rather accept a theory like Mayuri becoming a Future Badass, and going back in time to save Okabe or something like that.
EDIT: Hah. I didn't get any further important info on what I wanted to know, but some awesome things and character building definitely happen in all of the CD's. I recommend them.

It's still nice to have some extra background information, though. And even if I don't get any more info, it's still Steins;gate that I'm listening to.

Last edited by MracY; 2012-01-09 at 15:55. Reason: Youtube link wasn't working
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