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Old 2011-02-27, 10:10   Link #2421
Tiresias
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Just posting this here for future search reference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
It's the translation for the Force NEXT 01, that come from this sub-forum but I don't know who has done it (and I am too lazy to search )
Spoiler for CW-AEC02X "Strike Cannon":


Spoiler for Raising Heart Excelion (Standalone Flight Mode):
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Last edited by Tiresias; 2011-02-27 at 10:11. Reason: Some of this makes little sense for me, but whatever...
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:24   Link #2422
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I'd like to point out that Yuuno does not create a barrier jacket for himself with his magic.
This happened a long time ago and over 122 pages back, but I'm not feeling patient enough to finish reading through the whole thing to see if someone else has refuted this yet. I'll respond now, and continue reading later.

EDIT: Finishing searching for any mention of Yuuno (or Yunno) in this thread. Turns out, this never WAS directly refuted.


On what did Kha base his assumption that Yuuno does not use a barrier jacket? Especially since they are classified as Field-type, an area in which Yuuno is especially proficient.

There are multiple spells cast through the franchise without having their names called, especially when the character has no Device to cast/announce it for them.

Mages are capable of creating barrier jackets without using their Devices, and of wearing them for extended periods of time without a problem.

Chrono treats his barrier jacket as his work uniform, and never sheds it except when he's off-duty. It is also very clearly a barrier jacket, as it is the thing he wears into combat.

I would posit that Yuuno's most common attire in the first two seasons is also his barrier jacket.

Note how, aboard the Asura or inside the Infinite Library, Yuuno is suddenly wearing much simpler, more casual clothing that bears no resemblence to his usual outfit.

Note how any time Yuuno is "in the field", he's suddenly right back inside his iconic outfit. Just as Chrono might treat his barrier jacket as an on-duty uniform, Yuuno might be treating his own barrier jacket as a constant-vigilance protection for excursions, be they in dangerous wilderness, unstable caverns, or combat situations.


Assuming that I'm right, an additional note. While Yuuno is always wearing his barrier jacket "in the field", he is not always wearing his cloak. However, he is definitely always wearing his cloak whenever he is flying or ready to fly, as in combat.

I posit that Yuuno's cloak is a flight-enhancer, just as Nanoha's Flier Fins are. Presumably, Fate's cape serves a similar function.

All three of them would be perfectly capable of Levitation (as described in the Nanoha wiki) if not fully independent flight, but these additions to their barrier jackets improve their manueverabily in any case.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2011-09-02 at 02:17.
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Old 2011-09-02, 05:40   Link #2423
mielipuoli
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Suddenly I can't help picturing Yuuno developing a leather jacket and fedora as part of his archaeologist's barrier jacket.

That he'd wear a Barrier Jacket CONSTANTLY makes a hell of a lot of sense - he's out there alone, in the field, and potentially (if not actually, cf. Jewel Seeds) surrounded by significant danger that can sneak up on him anytime. Being alone means he doesn't have a buddy outside of his Device to warn him; he's got to rely on his own preparation. And that includes going around in armor, otherwise you tempt fate just a little too much by giving a potential enemy you haven't seen yet an unprotected first shot.
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Old 2011-09-02, 11:49   Link #2424
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by mielipuoli View Post
Suddenly I can't help picturing Yuuno developing a leather jacket and fedora as part of his archaeologist's barrier jacket.
I like his current jacket too much to see it go, but that would be funny.

Maybe just the fedora wouldn't be so out of place. Maybe if he gets a Device, Hayate and the others could sneak one into the program as a surprise gift.

Vita might be jealous, but on the other hand, her hat has bunnies, and is therefore clearly superior.


Quote:
That he'd wear a Barrier Jacket CONSTANTLY makes a hell of a lot of sense - he's out there alone, in the field, and potentially (if not actually, cf. Jewel Seeds) surrounded by significant danger that can sneak up on him anytime. Being alone means he doesn't have a buddy outside of his Device to warn him; he's got to rely on his own preparation. And that includes going around in armor, otherwise you tempt fate just a little too much by giving a potential enemy you haven't seen yet an unprotected first shot.
Exactly.


I've also been thinking of other spells that Yuuno would have mastered. Which overlaps with speculation into the spells he taught others.


Flash Move - He's keeping up with (and running away from) Vita pretty darn well from what little we can see. And if Yunno taught Nanoha how to levitate and create a flight-enhancing addition to her barrier jacket, he probably taught her how to increase power to the Flier Fins for bursts of speed.

So, he just increases power to his cloak for his own bursts.


Ring Bind - This is the most basic binding spell I can find on the Wiki. It's noted for being the simplest and the weakest. It's also the one that Arf uses. It serves as the base for Loop Bind, Long Range Bind, and Lightning Bind, and possibly also Chain Bind.

In the Sound Stages, this is likely the elementary spell that Yuuno was teaching Nanoha. She was failing repeatedly, which meant that she was learning it at mostly normal pace.

Of course, in the end, she shocks him by intuitively skipping right past Rind Bind to achieve Restrict Lock, which seems to be the strongest of that type. And she does this in the midst of battle.

According to the Sound Stage and wiki, Restrict Lock is a "gathering spell" that works on a principle similar to Starlight Breaker. By gathering spent and ambient mana as well as using her own, Nanoha can create a strong bind.

In fact, Restrict Lock was probably Nanoha's first step towards discovering Starlight Breaker. Naturally, if she could use "gathering" to make a strong bind, she would look into using "gathering" to create a strong attack.

It is possible that Yuuno himself is not capable of using Restrict Lock in battle, but inconclusive. Yuuno's few known solo fights (Arf, Vita) happen mostly off-screen, and the rest of the time his job is better fulfilled with Chain Bind.

He probably knows Loop Bind, but it seems unlikely that he has ever needed to learn Long Range Bind.


Defenser and Protection - According to the wiki, Nanoha could have taught Caro the Defenser spell, but instead went with Protection. The wiki explains that the differences is Defenser being cheaper and quicker, but Protection being stronger.

I believe we can assume these two are the most basic barrier defenses of the Mid-Child (and Modern Belkan) system. Yuuno might know both of them, or else just Protection.

And I'm pretty sure we can agree he has the Wide Area Protection trick.

The wiki says that, in the novelization of the first season, Nanoha learns an additional property called Lightning Protection for use against Fate, similar to the Fire Protection refinement that Subaru uses in her rescue career. Again, it is possible that Yuuno already knows or is easily capable of learning these refinements. It depends on the environments and ruins he's had to explore.


Circle Protection - Circle Protection is probably an advanced form of Wide Area Protection. It uses a magic circle behind or below the caster to create a field designed to bolster the barrier's strength*. Presumably, the magic circle itself offers little or no protection on the side of the field where the barrier doesn't reach; if it were the strong point, it would be placed at the point of impact.

This spell might be slower to cast than a regular barrier, and/or largely stationary. Good for standing your ground against a single sustained assault. It's hard to know, as Yuuno is seen using this trick only once.

Yuuno teaches Circle Protection to Arf before A's, though she seems to need two circles to pull it off. The wiki suggests that this is because she's using it in mid-air rather than on the ground, but hemi-spherical barriers are used in the air all the time. My guess is that she hasn't fully mastered the spell, and she's probably just not as good with field magic as Yuuno.

The Sphere Protection upgrade extends the barrier completely around oneself. For some reason, no magical circle is seen. Perhaps the skill cannot be executed with the aid of circles. This would imply the skill is difficult to cast and maintain.

Yuuno manages to maintain FOUR of them, three of which were quite a distance from himself.

Others who lack Yuuno's skill with fields, such as the Lotte twins, Caro and Zaphira, use the Wheel Protection refinement to spin their basic Protection barriers for additional deflecting power. Yuuno probably also knows this trick.


Round Guarder - Circle Protection's cousin. Rather than a barrier reinforced with a field, it's a field that is given the property of a barrier. As opposed to spells like Temporal Force field or Defenster der Magi (Prison of Magic), it is not meant to keep things from leaving, but to keep things from getting in.

Being a field spell, it is completely stationary, but self-sustaining. At most, it needs to continue drawing power from the mage, but should require no further attention.

It's unknown how quickly Yuuno could create such a bunker when he's not adding an automated version of his Physical Heal spell.

Probably, the reason Yuuno didn't use this spell against the Book of Darkness' Thunder of Annihilation attack was that he couldn't multi-cast it like Sphere Protection, to cover both himself and three distant targets. Had they all been together, he would have used Round Guarder to cover them all with a single spell.


* In fact, it's Round Guarder's barrier property and strong resemblence to Circle Protection that results in my theory that Circle Protection relies on field-magic skills.

But I'm also basing this on how creating fields is one of Yuuno's strongest points compared to other mages. Even Chrono thinks they're a pain in the ass and that Yuuno's rather good at them.

And the only other person to use Circle Protection instead of Wheel Protection is someone that Yuuno taught personally.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:13   Link #2425
Sunder the Gold
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Continuing the list of spells that Yuuno officially knows and probably knows, based on his aptitudes and students...


Round Shield - Yuuno used this one against Vita, and taught it to Nanoha back in the first season, after which it replaced Protection as Nanoha's primary defense.

Fate and Arf already knew it, though in the Sound Stages they admit to Yuuno that they're not good with defense spells, and ask for his help. Presumably, he worked together with Chrono to round out their grasp of many basic principles, which Linith had been forced to gloss over.


Multiple Defenser - Despite the name, this is the trick of stacking multiple Round Shields in front of one's self.

Nanoha and Fate use this trick against each other in the movie-manga (and also the movie?), to defend against each other's straight-forward bombardments and barrages.

However, the biggest attack we see Yuuno faced with is Thunder of Destruction, a wide area-of-effect blast that would strike all around. Though it's probable that he also knows Multiple Defenser, a more omni-directional defense was far more prudent in that case.

We never see Yuuno try to directly counter Nanoha's Starlight Breaker with personal defenses, but rather his attempts to contain such bombardments within a field to prevent alerting the locals, or keep from destroying training rooms.

(Oddly, though Yuuno failed to contain Nanoha, Fate and Hayate's destruction in the manga, for some reason both he and Chrono seemed to think he could. Despite having seen the girls' full firepower used against the Book of Darkness' Defense Program. That seems like a uncharacteristic mistake on their parts, intended to be funnier than it was sensible.)

Regarding attempts to directly counter Nanoha's assaults, Nanoha says (in the Sound Stages, after A's?) that Yuuno's defense is so good that she can't defeat it without going all-out. (And Nanoha's "all-out" is pretty scary.)


Holding Shield - A technique for trapping an attacking limb or weapon within the shield itself. Since it involves letting the attack pass partially though, this must be a very risky defense; if the attack would have smashed the shield already, then this technique would merely make that easier.

In the main time-line, a twenty-yeard old Nanoha uses this against Signum. In the movie-manga, Nanoha uses this against Fate in their final duel. It is highly probable that Yuuno also knows this trick and was the one to teach it to her.


Binding Shield - This spell combines Round Shield and Chain Bind, fully ensnaring and largely immobilizing a melee attacker.

Nanoha is only seen using this trick in ViVid, but it's likely that Yuuno also knows it, since his options are limited to defenses and binds to begin with.

He might not have been able to attempt it against Vita while also working on the Teleporter High spell, or else she was wise to the trick; she has a lot more experience than Einheart, after all, and it would have become quickly apparent to her that Yuuno was this kind of opponent.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:17   Link #2426
itanshi1
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Unless you want to pull "In Ancient Belka, no one used sheilds!"
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:21   Link #2427
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Unless you want to pull "In Ancient Belka, no one used sheilds!"
Tell that to Panzerschild, Panzer Hindernis and Panzegeist xD

...not to mention Zaifra's rotating barrier and Shamal's giant multi-shields.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:57   Link #2428
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Tell that to Panzerschild, Panzer Hindernis and Panzegeist xD

...not to mention Zaifra's rotating barrier and Shamal's giant multi-shields.
Which are probably called Panzer(German word for "wheel") and Wintschild.


Anyway, there are two abilties Nanoha displays that are uncertain for Yuuno.

If Reactor Purge can be built into a barrier jacket program, Yuuno probably has it. Otherwise, voluntary activation of the spell would require getting used to getting assaulted a lot and judging which attacks are so dangerous that blowing part of your jacket up is a better than just taking the hit.

Since Yuuno can generally stop attacks before they get that far, it's not a skill I see him willingly pursuing.


There's also Flash Impact, where Nanoha charges her arms and weapon for an enhanced melee blow. This sort of skill might be related to flight, in that both seem like internal telekinesis, but that's mere conjecture.

Also, even if Yuuno could do it, it might not be dangerous to attempt barehanded. He might just be better off slamming a barrier in someone's face and using Barrier Burst. Or using Chain Bind like a whip.


Floater Field can soften landings. I wonder if Yuuno has a Launcher Field that works in the opposite fashion.

Maybe, when he was even younger and couldn't levitate yet, he experimented with using fields to catapult himself into the air and then catch him as he landed?


He also used some unknown containment spell, together with Nanoha's shooting magic, to create fireworks for Arf's "Contract Day" celebration. This might have been another sort of field, especially since concentrating on it led to him forgetting that he hadn't yet set up the Temporal Field to keep the city below from witnessing it.

This spell may the same as one I theorize a Chain Binder would want to learn -- creating magical circles at a distance to use as pulley wheels, which allows their Chains to pull on a target from all directions and apply more power (or cutting force) for less effort.

He could even be assumed to be using such a trick with his Gears of Destiny "Aleister Chain" attack, which involves four taut chains pulling at his target from four different directions.

I call this theoretical spell the "Pulley Field".


The Aleister Chain might also include various sorts of Decline magic to make up for the lack of damaging power against hard targets.

Things like Struggle Bind, Barrier Break, and theoretically field and shield breaking tricks. Anything to cut through and bypass defenses and escape attempts.

And then, perhaps using a theoretical "Bind Break" to make the chains explode.
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Old 2011-09-08, 11:07   Link #2429
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Dragons. (By extention, also the "bugs")

* Are dragons an entirely natural species, or were they artificially enhanced or created during the old wars as biological weapons, engineered to obey the Lu Rushe bloodline?

* Do Voltaire and Friedliche belong to the same species? Is Voltaire a unique artifical creation, merely one survivor of many, the original god of dragons from which all others spring, or merely the final adult stage of lesser dragons?

* Do the dragons actually date back to Al Hazared? The ability to create multiple dragon-gods, which any B-ranked novice support mage could summon into battle, is a considerably powerful technology.
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Old 2011-09-09, 21:20   Link #2430
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I'm still hoping for thoughts on Summoned Creatures, but for now:


I want to talk a bit about Nanoha's Area Search and Wide Area Search spells, and how they differ from the other forms of magical scrying that we've seen.

Pretty much in that they're the only scrying spells I can recall that have a visible presence. Whenever Yuuno or Shamal are actively scanning for something, no such tell exists.

Before I continue, I want to distinguish between passive and active detection. The idea of passive detection is basically just like your sense of hearing or smell, only it's a sixth sense for magical energies. Whenever magic is used, you feel it happening as much as the effect's ripples or your sensivity allow.

Active scanning is more like a bat's echolocation or a dolphin's sonar. One creates a magical effect that extends the range of their physical or magical senses, or even approximates senses that they don't even have (such as analyzing material structures or detecting electrical currents).

Since active scanning is done with spells, passive scanning can detect it. You can hear someone using echolocation in an attempt to find you. So, when you need to locate someone without them knowing about it, you need to rely on passive scanning to avoid giving yourself away.

Now, there's little information to suggest why Nanoha's Area Search spell is visible when Yuuno and Shamal's searching spells are not. It was early during Nanoha's career, so maybe she was simply dumping far more power into the spell than absolutely necessary. Her first time activating Raising Heart involved such wasteful excesses as a pillar of light that pierced the heavens, Yuuno says that her control is rather poor, and when Chrono shows up later he's disgusted by her poor economy of power.

It's possible that Yuuno's search spells physically work in the same fashion, but invisibly. However, we can't be sure for the very reason that it IS invisible.


Still, with the Wide Area Search spell, there's a very good reason for the visible appearance.

Just as Nanoha and Teana needed to encase their shots in shells to prevent AMF conditions from destroying them before they strike, it's plausible that Nanoha needed to encase her scrying spells within shells.

A lot more complicated and a lot more limited than "invisible area-wide scrying", but the only sort that would be possible within an AMF zone. Without it, you'd be limited to passive detection.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2011-09-10 at 00:20.
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Old 2011-09-09, 22:12   Link #2431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Just as Nanoha and Teana needed to encase their shots in shells to prevent AMF conditions from destroying them before they strike, it's plausible that Nanoha needed to encase her scrying spells within shells.

A lot more complicated and a lot more limited than "invisible area-wide scrying", but the only sort that would be possible within an AMF zone. Without it, you'd be limite to passive detection.
Word Of God is that During Nanoha's fight with Vivio, more than Half her power was busy protecting her WAS from the AMF.
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Old 2011-09-09, 23:38   Link #2432
Tiresias
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Where was the source of that? And does it have a more detailed description of Area Search and scrying in general? Mechanisms, limitations and such?
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Old 2011-09-10, 00:17   Link #2433
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Half of Nanoha's magical power, or half of Raising Heart's processing time, or all of Raising Heart's processing time while Nanoha herself focused on fighting Vivio?

Also, do the Japanese tend to conflate the idea of "magical power" with "mana capacity" in a single word like "maryouku"?

Like conflating your muscle power with how energetic or tired you feel. Power and stamina. Or perhaps "Total HP capacity with current HP level."
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Old 2011-09-10, 00:19   Link #2434
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Given the process in which someone maintains a magic spell under AMF conditions, Nanoha's magical power and not Raising Heart's processing time.
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Old 2011-09-10, 00:21   Link #2435
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But again, does that mean she was missing half of her energy, or half of her output power, or both?
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Old 2011-09-10, 05:06   Link #2436
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Both, of course. If you use one hand for an action you can't use that hand for another, halving your power. But that hand will still consume energy with the action.
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Old 2011-09-10, 09:33   Link #2437
Sunder the Gold
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That's paying for two effects at once from the same pool, but it's still having all of the energy available in the same pool.

But if Nanoha invested half of her pool's energy into the Wide Area Search beacons, then she was half-empty. Thus, half of her energy was not available, should her fight with Vivio turn more desperate than she anticipated.


It's less like doing two things at once with either hand, and more like cutting off one hand, investing half of your physical stamina into it, and then going off to do something else with the one hand still attached and the half of your stamina you didn't give up.

Except without the grisly effects of a real amputation.
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Old 2011-09-10, 14:17   Link #2438
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Energy spent is not available, its as simple as that. If an action takes up half your energy, you cannot use that energy which in turn affects your output.
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Old 2011-09-13, 15:35   Link #2439
itanshi1
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Most of her attacks absorb energy from around her, so she could refill.
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Old 2011-09-13, 16:10   Link #2440
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"Go Straight To Starlight Breaker"

Do not pass Linker Core, do not collect $200 dollars.


Funny thing -- according to the Nanoha Wiki, Restrict Lock runs on the same "gathering" principle that SLB does.

Yuuno was trying to teach her a simple bind, and she accidentally learned one of the strongest ones by discovering her talent for Collection.

It was her first step towards Starlight Breaker.
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