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Old 2011-09-01, 23:15   Link #561
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While I certainly see value in teaching kids the importance of hard work and practice, I think it's also good for kids at a young age to realize that sheer natural talent is important and will make a difference in life... such as the sheer natural talent that Yui clearly has.

Learning that at a young age will enable kids to accept this earlier, I think. It'll let them accept that it's not always the hardest working person who does the best. That life can be... unfair that way.
They could have easily dealt with the hard work aspect and done more to emphasize Yui's natural talent, but then again they seemed more concerned with showing the super happy moe moe high school life thing. As it stands I don't think it accomplished either the showing of life being unfair(really with a show that sugary? That's a pretty big stretch my friend) and natural talent on display.


Quote:
Oh, another show that might be helpful here, and that your avatar made me think of... the original Mobile Suit Gundam. Amuro Ray didn't really need to work all that hard at mastering that Gundam, eh? He just hops into it during a disaster, and it all comes naturally to him. Strange that Gundam never really gets criticized much for this sort of stuff (and it happens a lot), but K-On does...
Yes, well see here's the thing. If you want to talk talent/hard work and sacrifice Gundam actually pulls that off quite adequately IMO. The newtype aspect of Amuro's character allows him a natural talent at working Mobile Suits, but despite all of his powers of precognition and what not he still can't save all his friends and allies and still has to make sacrifices, get hurt and suffer along the way in order to end the war. I think the Soldiers of Sorrow arc shows this most adequately where he brags about all of his talent, ends up deserting and not wanting to put the hard work in and the end result is that it gets Ryu Jose killed in the end. After this he realizes that he has to smarten up, put the work into piloting the MS to get better and then he'll be better suited to defend the White Base.

It's a gradual process (Amuro starts barely being able to defend himself against Char's Zaku) and nothing good comes without hard work and sacrifice and this is something I felt Gundam showed, whereas K-On does not; Opting instead to have Yui go from zero to guitar goddess in the span of a single episode. This just strikes me as completely unrealistic and again something I would not want to teach my children. I'm sorry, but no matter how much natural talent you have, you still need to practice in order to master your craft. I doubt the likes of Jimmy Page would tell you that he got where he was with his guitar playing by sitting around and eating cake.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:22   Link #562
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I edited out the Gundam reference afterwards, as I thought the analogy wasn't that good of one to make on second-thought.

Alas, I didn't edit it out quickly enough it seems.

So I'm going to let the Gundam discussion go.


K-On shows the value of real friendship, in my opinion. K-On's not perfect, but I think that it has some value. Other shows can be used to demonstrate the value of hard work.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:26   Link #563
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I would point to the several times K-On emphisized studying and the problems with not studying in school (Yui would not be able to be in hte club if she failed, and they could not go to the same university if they did not pass the entrance exams).

Also as for them practising...that is sort of why Azusa is there. She's a little more forceful on getting them to practise than Mio was.

There is also, especially in the second half of the second season, a theme of enjoying the time you have in high school, so you don't miss it. Being with friends and the like. Things that become harder for some afterward due to college, work, or families.

I do hope they get to a third season, because there seem to be more about really learning music in the renewed high school part, and then maybe learning about how to deal wih real life in the college part (though the college part's theme is still a little unclear)
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:41   Link #564
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I edited out the Gundam reference afterwards, as I thought the analogy wasn't that good of one to make on second-thought.

Alas, I didn't edit it out quickly enough it seems.

So I'm going to let the Gundam discussion go.


K-On shows the value of real friendship, in my opinion. K-On's not perfect, but I think that it has some value. Other shows can be used to demonstrate the value of hard work.
Yes it's rarely a good idea to challenge me on Gundam stuff lol. Just too much of an enyclopedic knowledge of that franchise. Could go on forever.....

I suppose K-On shows the value of friendship, but the lack of showcasing the merits of hard work and the implications it makes about learning to play an instrument kind of negates the value of that in my eyes and makes it so I'd rather show my kid something else....like say.... er Gundam, which also shows the value of friendship and comraderie.

Of course K-On could still probably be shown to kids that are really young (3-6) where they probably won't understand it's lack of strong values anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I would point to the several times K-On emphisized studying and the problems with not studying in school (Yui would not be able to be in hte club if she failed, and they could not go to the same university if they did not pass the entrance exams).

Also as for them practising...that is sort of why Azusa is there. She's a little more forceful on getting them to practise than Mio was.

There is also, especially in the second half of the second season, a theme of enjoying the time you have in high school, so you don't miss it. Being with friends and the like. Things that become harder for some afterward due to college, work, or families.

I do hope they get to a third season, because there seem to be more about really learning music in the renewed high school part, and then maybe learning about how to deal wih real life in the college part (though the college part's theme is still a little unclear)
If I recall K-On had an episode where Yui is worrying about studying for a test and instead ends up lazing around only to ace it. This is also something I would not want to show my kids and link to anything to do with doing well in school because it shows a completely unrealistic representation of what it's like to go to high school, study, make friends and graduate.

Regarding the enjoying time at high school thing. I think it's important, but I also think K-On sugar coats the concept. Again as far as I'm concerned K-On showcases a highly idealistic high school experience where nothing bad ever happens to anybody....ever. I have a very hard time subscribing to the idea that kids could learn anything of value from it. Real life and K-On life just don't mix well in that regard.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:51   Link #565
Akito Kinomoto
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Part of me is asking this in jest, but I'm also somewhat serious.

What about Clannad?
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:02   Link #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Part of me is asking this in jest, but I'm also somewhat serious.

What about Clannad?
I actually made a .txt about this topic for just this sort of occassion, but then I forgot to carry it over to my new Windows install. It's okay cause it would probably just enrage people anyway.

I'll just keep it brief since I've talked about this at length already.

Spoiler for Clannad spoilers:


I still to this day do not know why they did that. It's probably the actual greatest tragedy of that show
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:04   Link #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
If I recall K-On had an episode where Yui is worrying about studying for a test and instead ends up lazing around only to ace it. This is also something I would not want to show my kids and link to anything to do with doing well in school because it shows a completely unrealistic representation of what it's like to go to high school,study, make friends and graduate.
You mean the episode where she failed a test and aced the makeup exam? The one where she wasted all her time practicing guitar and ended up cramming when the other girls showed up to help her study?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Regarding the enjoying time at high school thing. I think it's important, but I also think K-On sugar coats the concept. Again as far as I'm concerned K-On showcases a highly idealistic high school experience where nothing bad ever happens to anybody....ever. I have a very hard time subscribing to the idea that kids could learn anything of value from it. Real life and K-On life just don't mix well in that regard.
Aside from expecting too much from a comic written to deliver jokes, you seem to single out this series out of the other xx/?? high school series for this unrealistic portrayal of high school life? Look at the Disney Channel. This fits in great with the sort of animated and live action dreck that is targeted at teens and tweens. A non-serious story about a girl with extraordinary circumstances having fun with friends. It feels like you're saying "This is a show about high school. Why isn't it more grounded in reality?" Rather than saying "This is a cartoon based on a 4 panel joke comic. Why don't I find it funny?"
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:11   Link #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
You mean the episode where she failed a test and aced the makeup exam? The one where she wasted all her time practicing guitar and ended up cramming when the other girls showed up to help her study?
Sounds right, although I don't remember the implication that she did any actual studying so much as the other girls studying and then chastising her for wasting time. Might have been a good lesson in there if she did bomb the test and realized that she should have listened to and valued her friends advice.


Quote:
Aside from expecting too much from a comic written to deliver jokes, y seem to single out this series out of the other xx/?? high school series for this unrealistic portrayal of high school life? Look at the Disney Channel. This fits in great with the sort of animated and live action dreck that is targeted at teens and tweens. A non-serious story about a girl with extraordinary circumstances having fun with friends.
It's a matter of topic in this case. One can't help but single out one particular show when it's necessary in order to keep to the topic being dsicussed. Indeed it does fit in great with Disney Channel as I said earlier today, however that was another point entirely. The point I've been trying to make tonight is about why I wouldn't want to show it to my kids (if I had any) personally, this being in reply to a post by Triple_R.
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:17   Link #569
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I actually made a .txt about this topic for just this sort of occassion, but then I forgot to carry it over to my new Windows install. It's okay cause it would probably just enrage people anyway.
Talk about dedication.

Quote:
I'll just keep it brief since I've talked about this at length already.

Spoiler for Clannad spoilers:


I still to this day do not know why they did that. It's probably the actual greatest tragedy of that show
Well then,
Spoiler for Just in case:


And nah, the biggest tragedy of the show was Sanae's bread. More seriously, what happened at the end is something that I'll never let this series live down no matter how much of a Clannad fanatic I am.
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Last edited by Akito Kinomoto; 2011-09-02 at 00:32.
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Old 2011-09-02, 00:45   Link #570
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I think Clannad's message is actually to value those around you, but it got lost in the VN to anime translation.

In the game, the miracle is only possible when you've collected all the lights (which you can see in the anime, BTW). You do this by completing routes - hence, each light you collect represents someone valuable to Tomoya. Only when he values all of them does he have his happy ending. Still a Deus Ex Machina, but I suspect it feels earned in the game because of the work you had to put in.

The one big flaw I can see in Clannad as an adaptation is that Kyoto never developed a mechanism for making the symbolism of the lights clear. Otherwise its an exemplary adaptation, avoiding some of the pitfalls I've seen other VN adaptations fall play to.
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Old 2011-09-02, 06:26   Link #571
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Give. Us. Little. Busters. DAMMIT!!
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Old 2011-09-02, 09:20   Link #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
...the message from something like a sobering and mature, "You should accept that bad things happen in life and try to savour the good aspects"...

I still to this day do not know why they did that. It's probably the actual greatest tragedy of that show
I don't think there is any need for Clannad to act mature. As it mostly deals with recognizable hardship and tragedy it is free to go the other way. It provides an idyllic setting with easy fixes for difficult issues for an audience that knows better. To me Clannad is feel-good-show much in the same way Amélie is.

The deus ex machina is imo consistent with the fixing-problems-theme shown in the rest of the series, just taken to the next level. For me the Ushio arc's more intense drama foreshaded a more spectacular solution rather than a change in tone.
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Old 2011-09-02, 09:41   Link #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife View Post
Give. Us. Little. Busters. DAMMIT!!
Now that is one stance I can agree with.

On the topic of Clannad's ending... Yeah, while I absolutely adore the show (it's my all-time favourite anime, in fact) I must admit that it really could have ended at After Story episode 19 and probably been stronger for it. That last bit of drama near the end felt extremely unnecessary and mean, and while I do think the ending we got was probably the best we reasonably could have given the circumstances the series had written itself into by that point... it only really worked because the alternative would have been ungodly horrible. That being said, I can't criticize the ending we got too much... Because it gave us that oh-so-beautiful Chiisana Tenohira sequence, which was probably my second favourite moment in the show after the ending of AS episode 18.
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Old 2011-09-02, 10:06   Link #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Wait, I thought K-On! was aimed at...actually, never mind. Intended audience and reached audience aren't always the same.
Otaku enjoyed it too. Multiple Demographic Appeal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Part of me is asking this in jest, but I'm also somewhat serious.

What about Clannad?
Spoiler for CLANNAD:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife View Post
Give. Us. Little. Busters. DAMMIT!!
Yes. Give us planetarian and Rewrite as well!
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Old 2011-09-02, 11:26   Link #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Nothing bothered me about that show more than the fact that Yui gets better at guitar without even so much as a montage of her practicing that I can recall and there's certainly no implication that hard work played any part in it. I just think that's a horrible thing to teach a kid and kind of clashes fiercely with the values I'd want to teach the next generation.
Question: Do you intend to have a complete idiot for a kid? Because anyone should be able to figure out going from complete beginner to super skillful without practice is not particularly realistic (and even if they don't realize that on their own, they'll figure it out pretty damn fast should they try to follow Yui's lead).

In any case, using cartoons to teach ones kids about life probably isn't the best parenting method. Make sure they understand cartoons aren't real, then let them watch whatever cartoons shows they like as long as it's age appropriate, that's my view.


Edit: Please disregard everything I've said in this post, I was being temporarily stupid. I'd delete it, except I don't feel right erasing something I said just because it causes me to feel embarassed later.

Last edited by Goggen; 2011-09-02 at 13:40. Reason: Do I need a reason?
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Old 2011-09-02, 12:02   Link #576
Yui Is My Wife
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Ranting for more Kyo-Ani Action-Dramedies and Captain America.

And while I'm at it, Kyoani.

You fellas demonstrated that you are SO good at making works of the Action-Genre with Fullmetal Panic Fumofu and Fullmetal Panic The Second Raid.

Why not make more action-dramedies? Oh by all means, keep the sentimental comedies coming (and never stop, cos you're so good at making them), but what I wouldn't kill to see a "Captain America" Anime made by you fellas!!

Now, before you laugh me off the court, obseve the recent slew of Madhouse-Produced American TV show turne anime like X-Men, Wolverine, Blade and even Supernatural. They all have one thing in common that Mahouse does so depressingly well: Dark and Cynical.

The one thing that makes the Captain America franchise stand out is its unabashed, heartwarmingly sentimental idealism, which would be right at home with the tone of Kyo-Ani's Air/Kanon/Clannad/K-ON/Even Haruhi unvierse.

And if Kyo-Ani's proficiency in handling the aforementioned sentimentalism is combined with their mastery of high-octane action (Seen in their-take on the Fullmetal Panic franchise), we'll have a classic in the making.

And keep those golden sunsets coming, Kyoani, cos you do it FAR better than Michale Bay ever will.
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Old 2011-09-02, 12:29   Link #577
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Sales wise, FMP:TSR tanked. Which boggles my mind, but there you have it.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-09-02, 12:45   Link #578
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Judging by the amount of action oriented animation and 3D animation they are using in Nichijou, KyoAni is up to something. it can't all be for the K-On movie...since K-On isn't an action type anything (unless they go all out for a concert). So that suggests they have something in the works that will require these demostrated skills.
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Old 2011-09-02, 12:50   Link #579
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Sales wise, FMP:TSR tanked. Which boggles my mind, but there you have it.

Cheers.
FMP isn't a marketable series. FMP doesn't appeal to enough people.

I heard KyoAni is a fan of FMP though, so we should see more eventually when they decide they are in the financial position to make a series that will barely break even.
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Old 2011-09-02, 12:53   Link #580
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
Question: Do you intend to have a complete idiot for a kid? Because anyone should be able to figure out going from complete beginner to super skillful without practice is not particularly realistic (and even if they don't realize that on their own, they'll figure it out pretty damn fast should they try to follow Yui's lead).

In any case, using cartoons to teach ones kids about life probably isn't the best parenting method. Make sure they understand cartoons aren't real, then let them watch whatever cartoons shows they like as long as it's age appropriate, that's my view.
That's a very defensive and even vaguely hostile reply to my post. As such I think only one reply is warranted.

No I wouldn't intend to have a complete idiot for a kid. In fact the way things would be likely to turn out my kid would probably be very unlikely to even have an interest in K-On! barring it being a girl. Also who said anything about teaching my kids through cartoons. I just don't want to run the risk of their supplemental entertainment running contrary to the values I would want to instill in my kid as early in life as possible to prepare him for a world I see as becoming increasingly cynical and exploitative of children and good will in general. I'm one of those people that likes to be prepared, and that would also have to mean taking into consideration every possible influence there is out there that would try to steer my kid towards the consumer hegemony and dumb them down. If that would mean that K-On has no place in my household until a certain point than so be it.

Also please don't tell me how I should raise my future children if I have any, and that goes for anybody that is thinking of doing the same thing. It's quite obnoxious and more than a little prying. I think we're done here.
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