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Old 2011-09-02, 14:58   Link #1041
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Since he made a series, the series needs to be judged on an ongoing basis. When it's over, that's when you look at the whole package and decide where it succeeded and where it failed.
Well you can approach the show in whatever way you want, but it seems pointless to me to judge it for something it isn't even trying to do. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:12   Link #1042
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
I will be honest; I think you are whining too much here. Stand back and watch the show as the director plays it out to you - like it or not, up to you - but to decide by yourself that the show would have benefited from being a shorter series before the show is even at halfway mark is only your playing "the critic" to a fault. And as Sides pointed out, not much (I would say not a single frame) has been wasted thus far so you lost me with your "shorter would have been better" argument.

You may not have found Ringo interesting, but I - and many others - watch the show with much arduous interest than most other shows precisely because of her. Do I think she's a crazy bitch? Most definitely. But does that take away from the show? Nope. It adds quite a bit to it instead. I am practically glued to the screen, trying to notice every subtle change - from the very subtle references to external materials to the antics of the penguins - so you lost me with the "attention span" argument as well.
I really hate to say this but don't take this personally, because this appears to be a general trend everywhere...

But he and others are calling it as it is. Whether you disagree or not, people have thoughts and those can be changed eventually. You can't fault people not being satisfied.

See, some of us would rather not fanboy over certain directors and concentrate on the show itself. I'm really sorry that some of us can't comprehend the genius and are slower, but if the show is really that great, then it'll prove itself and their minds are changed.

If it doesn't... what can it do? The first use of an anime is to entertain, and you're basically saying "Stop complaining about not having fun!"

It's nice that you and others are able to appreciate this. But please realize that not others feel the same way; the way you're posting makes it feel like you're worrying about his lack of enjoyment is somehow corroding your enjoyment.

Assuming it's all part of the plan and everything will unfold perfectly is also making too many assumptions. For some of us, the show must prove its value before we can give it that kind of credit, and thus people are calling it out on what they've seen too far.


Personally, I like the show. But when addressing people who aren't impressed, you're using a worthless argument. You can't give credit to stuff people haven't done yet (future episodes).

TL;DR It's up to the anime to prove itself to the viewers
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2011-09-02 at 15:22.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:15   Link #1043
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I'm not even sure whether I want Sho to live or die. He's my absolute favorite character and I'd love for his smiling face and incredibly kind soul to stay around, but if he died he'd make the plot so interesting. Not saying it already is, but it'd just make things really moving after the Himari episode next week and things will get serious like Kanba's seiyuu said they would in a few eps. I'M CONFUSED IDK. I think he's gonna die though, perfect timing for a sense of emergency and I feel like the whole cake splatter that looked a bit like blood thing and him being in the same position at Tabuki's house on the table REALLY foreshadowed him getting hit on the head, which means he's most likely not going to live. SHO WHY.
I used to hate Ringo, but she makes things really interesting for me, so I can't say that I entirely dislike her. I tend to like characters with that kind of depth and everything. Idk. My opinion on her is mixed. Btw, just to make sure uh, did she see her dad cheating on her mom or? I got confused at that part, tbh.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:20   Link #1044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
I used to hate Ringo, but she makes things really interesting for me, so I can't say that I entirely dislike her. I tend to like characters with that kind of depth and everything. Idk. My opinion on her is mixed. Btw, just to make sure uh, did she see her dad cheating on her mom or? I got confused at that part, tbh.
Her parents are divorced and shes trying to get them back together by completing Project M. However, she saw her dad proposing to a new woman. So basically it kinda fucked her over because once he moves on, it would be harder for her to get them back together and make them become a family again. Also, the whole I'LL BE YOUR DADDY LITTLE GIRL would make it seem like he's replacing Ringo, in a way.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:22   Link #1045
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Awww, I wish I could give Shouma a big hug, because his concern for Ringo was simply adorable =03(no homo). As someone already said, she's hit the bottom of the barrel on the crazy chart. I can't see her doing anything worse than poisoning Tabuki's food to make a baby with him while he's sleeping. Well, she could come to some conclusion and end up killing him, then herself. Despite her previous antics, I'd be surprised if she goes that far. And now that the diary is torn in half, I think her connection to Momoka will dwindle a little. I knew she had to lose that diary in some way if she was ever going to move on, but I didn't think it'd happen at the same time other events took place(Shou + car). Some people say they'd rather see Kanba in action, but I'd like to see Ringo get a bit of closure and stability(hopefully with Shou's help ) before moving on.

And on another note, I've never seen Utena, nor do I know about this director, but I really don't see the point in comparing works with a 10 year difference time frame with each other, esp when its premise isn't really the same. This whole 'Ikuhara" talk is kinda annoying really. It's alright to reference his/her style in context to what is happening in the show, but when it permeates most of the discussion over the actual content of the episodes, it makes for a boring, pointless read =0\.

edit: I forgot to mention how I loved Himari in this episode working out and punching with those huge boxing gloves (^,^). Moments like these makes it hard to choose whether I like penguin hat Himari over the regular one(I'm going with the latter =03).

Last edited by frubam; 2011-09-02 at 15:33.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:22   Link #1046
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Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
did she see her dad cheating on her mom or? I got confused at that part, tbh.
Her parents are divorced. What she saw was her father with his new family.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:35   Link #1047
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Finally watched Episode 8 of this (I had to wait on gg subs as nutbladder's didn't work for me).

After watching it... I can understand Guardian Enzo's critiques, but I also think I see where Ikuhara is going with Ringo specifically, and MPD in general.

Next episode is absolutely key for MPD, and especially for Ringo's character, imo.

My view is that Ringo's character has been taken right to the line here. Her yandere eccentricity has blossomed into full-out, non-stop insanity. Ringo is deeply disturbingly delusional. She's genuinely crazy.

I don't mean "crazy" as in someone who simply acts very theatrically, and/or you can't perceive the method to his/her madness. Nor do I mean "crazy" in the sense of "evil beyond belief". Ringo is crazy in the sense that she has completely divorced herself from reality, and is living in a dream world that perceives reality through a massive distortion on a fun-house mirror.

Episode 8 has definitely demonstrated the depths of Ringo's psychological decay. I think that at this point, one of three things should happen:

1. Ringo "flames out", as she does in the OP. In other words, she becomes a tragic figure meeting with a tragic end.

2. Ringo begins to snap out of it. Shoma's potentially lethal accident is much of the catalyst for this. She begins the road to recovery, and takes on a new role in the near future.

3. A major "game changer" comes into play, one that actually enables Ringo to win over Tabuki. An obvious example of this would be Yuri being removed from the equation somehow (death, coma, etc...). This is the trickiest of the three options, though, and hence not my personal favorite of the three.


If Ringo is back to fruitlessly pursuing Tabuki next episode... then Ikuhara has frankly overplayed his hand. Such a hopeless pursuit is now very much played out. That plot-line has been taken as far as it can before tediousness and pointless repetition sets in.

However, that plot-line has been skillfully used to bring Ringo to the very edge and peak; Ikuhara has set the stage for a great moment of high drama here if he executes it well (think of how Gen Urobuchi handled Sayaka Miki).

Ringo either now ascends to victory, or crashes spectacularly, or is pulled back from the brink of the abyss. To bring her to this point only to have her run around in circles would be a horrible waste, and highly counter-productive.


So, if MPD is the truly great anime that many believe it to be, then I think next episode will be a major turning point, or a tragic ending, for Ringo. However, if Ringo continues to be used as she's been the past few episodes, then Ikuhara will have badly misplayed his hand, and my assessment of MPD's narrative strength will drop considerably.


With all of the above being said, I can't really judge Episode 8 yet. I will say I loved the Western-themed bit: That was pretty cool and amusing. The ending of the episode was also very good. But how good Episode 8 is as a whole will depend, in my view, on what happens in Episode 9. After Episode 9, I think I'll know if MPD is deserving of the hype that surrounds it or not.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:40   Link #1048
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^
Spoiler for Episode 9:


I don't think it'd happen that fast either. I don't think Ringo will die, either, and I think her arc is about done with.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:41   Link #1049
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I'm not sure which I find more zany at this point. Ringo's steadfast dedication to boning her teacher, or people's stubborn dedication to "protecting" the legacy of Utena and Ikuhara.

This thread and Ringo should get married and have a child. I think it's the only way to make it all work in the end.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:42   Link #1050
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Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
I think her arc is about done with.
Really? Now, for more Himari time.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:43   Link #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I'm not sure which I find more zany at this point. Ringo's steadfast dedication to boning her teacher, or people's stubborn dedication to "protecting" the legacy of Utena and Ikuhara.

This thread and Ringo should get married and have a child. I think it's the only way to make it all work in the end.
You almost have it.

Ringo is representative of his dedicated fans. Ringo is the ultimate fangirl, basically.

I love Ringo, so no hate please.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:47   Link #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
3. A major "game changer" comes into play, one that actually enables Ringo to win over Tabuki. An obvious example of this would be Yuri being removed from the equation somehow (death, coma, etc...). This is the trickiest of the three options, though, and hence not my personal favorite of the three.
Hmmm, perhaps if Masako(?) used that memory-erasing slingshot on Yuri in exchange for the other half of Ringo's book(assuming that's one of the things she's after), I think that'd be interesting. Then that'd give Ringo an opportunity of closure...unless she actually goes through with it, which would be a bit more unpredictable, esp if she starts leaning towards Shou in the 'like' department.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:48   Link #1053
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am i the only one who noticed in the flashback scene when she first looks at her sister's diary that she also has a death note?

SCREENSHOTS NOW! o_O
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:51   Link #1054
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I'm not sure which I find more zany at this point. Ringo's steadfast dedication to boning her teacher, or people's stubborn dedication to "protecting" the legacy of Utena and Ikuhara.
You'd got a point at first but I think you're just overreacting now.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:59   Link #1055
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You'd got a point at first but I think you're just overreacting now.
Hey....look, I'm not the one that bore down on a guy just for having a viewpoint on the show that doesn't subscribe to the whole, "you just can't understand his genius" philosophy. If you ask me this has been a long time coming. It's a little too late for regrets here unfortunately.

Frankly if you ask me the atmosphere surrounding Ikuhara's mystique has become more than a little overbearing and today it essentially boiled over as someone dared to challenge the validity of it as it relates to Mawaru Penguindrum. Personally I don't understand why the show can't just be allowed to speak for itself and be gauged on that level by the viewers posting in this thread, Ikuhara and Utena's legacy be damned.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:59   Link #1056
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Lol RIngo tried to rape Tabuki twice. Tough for her to see her father moving on, her whole world is crashign down. Shoma had the best line, finally some one told her straight. Maybe Kanba stole half of the diary. Why did Shoma take the hit for her after that great line.
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Old 2011-09-02, 15:59   Link #1057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
^
Spoiler for Episode 9:


I don't think it'd happen that fast either. I don't think Ringo will die, either, and I think her arc is about done with.
My word...

Switching to a Himari-centric episode right after how Ringo has been developed up to this point, would be one of the absolute worst cases of drama handling that I've ever seen.

Bringing Ringo to where she is now, and then just leaving her there to focus entirely on another character next week would be a horrible mistake, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Hmmm, perhaps if Masako(?) used that memory-erasing slingshot on Yuri in exchange for the other half of Ringo's book(assuming that's one of the things she's after), I think that'd be interesting. Then that'd give Ringo an opportunity of closure...unless she actually goes through with it, which would be a bit more unpredictable, esp if she starts leaning towards Shou in the 'like' department.
I like this idea. That would be interesting, and could work well.
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Old 2011-09-02, 16:05   Link #1058
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Man, very shocking cliffhanger there. Shipper side of me wants Ringo to get better because of the accident, but the side of me that craves for a more interesting storyline is wanting Ringo to go EVEN MORE INSANE because of it.

Psycho-moe ftw. XD
At the very least, losing half her diary won't do good things for her psyche.

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I'll share a little something with the thread. While I really enjoyed most of episode 7 on account of the Ringo scenes, I also made the comment to someone that the stock footage use has gotten extremely bad to the point of looking out of place and actively working against one of the shows characters. When the Survival Strategy scenes first started it was about introducing the Penguin Himari in a flourish (all those exploding clothes and poses and what not), now when they are using the same footage for scenes like Himari talking to the brothers about getting Ringo together with Yabuki it just plain does not fit anymore. Like I know at this point I'm watching footage that was meant for a completely different set of circumstances, so why are we still using the exact same scenes. To me stock footage should be barely noticeable or at the very least flow with what needs to be done for the purpose of a scene (one of the reason most Magical Girl/Super Robot transformations are still okay in my estimation).
I think that you're missing something about that transformation. What wasn't shown is perhaps what was shown in that scene, and the Penguin Hat's orders were only for Shouma and his lack of progress. She seems to be rather more pleased with what Kanba was doing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
This to me is a pretty glaring flaw in how Himari's character has been handled. As I mentioned earlier, it is indeed a little hard to identify with and see a character as present when she basically only exists in stock footage. Shame since she started off extremely sympathetic.
That's sort of the point. If the show was interested in developing her character, then she'd have been in a lot more scenes. Why is she absent then, what does she know of what's going on, and what has she been up to? Those are very important questions which I expect to have very good answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
That's a very forgiving approach - is there a cutoff? Do we say it's OK if 23 episodes "lack dramatic punch" if the payoff is in the 24th?
The issue here is a matter of context. The entire show is replete with portentious imagery and themes, but we haven't been given the tools to determine their meaning yet. In fact, we haven't been given enough pieces of the puzzle to even figure out what kind of puzzle it is yet. Is there any significance to the aquarium in Ikebukuro? How about the Takurakara Revue knock-off? Or the Manuichi Line?

I'd say that it's too early to make an effective analysis of Penguindrum.

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Of course every director is different, as you say, and that's why I said that an episode exists both as an entity and as part of the whole. It depends on the nature of criticism you believe in, I suppose - I don't think a director should be allowed to exempt himself from ongoing analysis because it's only relevant when viewed as a whole. That being said, I'd certainly say that if it were a matter of one episode, it wouldn't be of great concern for me. The issue I have is that the last three episodes have had major problems for me, and that's almost 40% of the total run-time to date. That's a lot of ask in the "just have faith" department.
That's certainly true, but it's not really hard to have faith in the overall show when it's been so well directed. Every story element seems to have a strong sense of purpose and more importantly, a reason for being in the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Her parents are divorced and shes trying to get them back together by completing Project M. However, she saw her dad proposing to a new woman. So basically it kinda fucked her over because once he moves on, it would be harder for her to get them back together and make them become a family again. Also, the whole I'LL BE YOUR DADDY LITTLE GIRL would make it seem like he's replacing Ringo, in a way.
Ringo has already been replaced - her father's cellphone sports an eel strap instead of the penguin + apple strap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
And on another note, I've never seen Utena, nor do I know about this director, but I really don't see the point in comparing works with a 10 year difference time frame with each other, esp when its premise isn't really the same. This whole 'Ikuhara" talk is kinda annoying really. It's alright to reference his/her style in context to what is happening in the show, but when it permeates most of the discussion over the actual content of the episodes, it makes for a boring, pointless read =0\.
The reason Ikuhara is brought up so much is because the show doesn't provide much context for what's going on. Without context, it's hard to draw any inferences beyond the surface ones. However, Ikuhara's style of direction is extremely distinctive - enough so that the themes in Utena and Sailor Moon can serve as a semi-substitue for context.

It's certainly not necessary to have seen the older works, but they do work as useful frames of reference.
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Old 2011-09-02, 16:32   Link #1059
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My word...

Switching to a Himari-centric episode right after how Ringo has been developed up to this point, would be one of the absolute worst cases of drama handling that I've ever seen. Bringing Ringo to where she is now, and then just leaving her there to focus entirely on another character next week would be a horrible mistake, imo.
It's not exactly like that.
Spoiler:


Personally, I'm looking forwards to seeing Himari's reaction when she finds out what happened to Shouma. It's going to be pretty crazy.
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Old 2011-09-02, 16:41   Link #1060
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's not exactly like that.
Spoiler:


Personally, I'm looking forwards to seeing Himari's reaction when she finds out what happened to Shouma. It's going to be pretty crazy.
Hhmmm... that might work Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm curious as to how you and Midnight Bliss know this, though. Is this being spoiled in magazines a la Tiger and Bunny?
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