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Old 2011-09-02, 16:45   Link #1061
Guardian Enzo
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RRR, if you read my blog you know I said the next episode is likely going to be the critical one in determining whether this show succeeds or fails - so I certainly agree 100% with you there.

In terms of Shouma's death being a catalyst for a transformation in Ringo, than frankly wouldn't give me a whole lot of satisfaction. Ringo did nothing to deserve salvation, especially at the cost of the life of a far better person than she. Now if ikuhara is going for a kind of nihilist, "no justice" view of the universe, that would certainly be an effective way of illustrating the point.

It would be a bold move indeed to kill off the only character in the series that's both sensible and decent (I can't count Himari and Tabuki as they're basically mannequins at this stage). Really, only Ringo and Shouma have gotten significant development so far, and Ringo is at best an anti-hero. But Ikuhara is certainly capable of boldness, and his track record isn't that of a guy who normally likes sympathetic protagonists, so it's definitely possible. I'd still guess Shouma isn't dead, though I'd expect the question to be dragged out for at least an episode or two.
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Old 2011-09-02, 16:48   Link #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm curious as to how you and Midnight Bliss know this, though. Is this being spoiled in magazines a la Tiger and Bunny?
Nope, there is a novel adaptation for this series. Only the first of tree volumes has been published, containing 9 chapters (1 chap per anime episode). I heard that from the second volume on the novel is going to divert from the anime storyline, but the first volume is pretty close to it.
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Old 2011-09-02, 16:57   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ringo is crazy in the sense that she has completely divorced herself from reality [...] (think of how Gen Urobuchi handled Sayaka Miki).
Oh ho ho boy.. Frankly i did not see this coming but it's starting to mirror that nitro anime a lot now.
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Old 2011-09-02, 17:26   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
RRR, if you read my blog you know I said the next episode is likely going to be the critical one in determining whether this show succeeds or fails - so I certainly agree 100% with you there.

In terms of Shouma's death being a catalyst for a transformation in Ringo, than frankly wouldn't give me a whole lot of satisfaction. Ringo did nothing to deserve salvation, especially at the cost of the life of a far better person than she. Now if ikuhara is going for a kind of nihilist, "no justice" view of the universe, that would certainly be an effective way of illustrating the point.

It would be a bold move indeed to kill off the only character in the series that's both sensible and decent (I can't count Himari and Tabuki as they're basically mannequins at this stage). Really, only Ringo and Shouma have gotten significant development so far, and Ringo is at best an anti-hero. But Ikuhara is certainly capable of boldness, and his track record isn't that of a guy who normally likes sympathetic protagonists, so it's definitely possible. I'd still guess Shouma isn't dead, though I'd expect the question to be dragged out for at least an episode or two.
I've been trying to figure out what Ikuhara's "end game" for Ringo is for the past two weeks now, because you can't keep her in this state of fruitless romantic pursuit forever (well, you could, but it would turn MPD into a self-parody. )

The vague sense I'm starting to get of Ringo right now is that of "Tragic Character". Either that, or she snaps out of it... but that in turn could still ultimately lead to "Tragic Character".

Should Ringo be forced to face reality, I think she'll be left an emotionally broken mess. Just think of what she's lost - Her sister, her father (in a sense), her romantic aspirations, and now she might lose a guy that's really been her best friend for awhile now (whether she wants to admit it or not). If I was a Vegas odds-maker, I'd put good odds on Ringo coming crashing down soon (within the next two or three episodes).

Short of a major game-changer that lets her win over Tabuki, that's the only "end game" I can see for Ringo now.

Mind you, this is presuming that Ikuhara realizes that he shouldn't just spam hopeless yandere Ringo for the rest of the anime. If he does spam her that way, I'll be 100% with you on MPD then.

Good and interesting blog write-up on MPD's latest episode. My current assessment is less negative than yours, but it's mainly a question of faith for me: I think Ikuhara is smart enough to realize what he now could do with Ringo if he were so inclined.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Oh ho ho boy.. Frankly i did not see this coming but it's starting to mirror that nitro anime a lot now.
Glad you liked my comparison there.


Edit: One thing I want to add here. It's not that I want Ringo to continue to be the star of the show. Quite the contrary. Her arc needs to end soon, but given how much time its been given, I would find it a huge waste to just leave Ringo where she is now. Basically, she's been built up to a major turning point (or tragic end), and now its time (imo) for Ikuhara to smoothly finish off the part of the story that focuses on her: He can do it in one more Ringo-focused episode, and be done with it. Then we can get back to Himari and Kanba.
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Old 2011-09-02, 17:30   Link #1065
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I don't quite understand this thread very much. People seem to be misinterpreting the words of the few to be the words of the majority on this show. There aren't that many people who have seen Utena (I haven't), and so very few of us know of Ikuhara's "genius."

While some people are reveling in their beloved director's style, and letting the story unfold onto them before making judgement calls in the hopes of a repeat of the perceived genius of Utena, I feel a majority of the viewers here are hanging here carefully and cautiously on this show.

Penguindrum's premise was initially very fresh, and its zaniness has been very entertaining. However, it is undeniable that for many, including myself, you need to expand the plot, expand the narrative to keep this story engaging.

I was initially very worried at the start of episode because I thought once again we were about to tread the same ground that the previous and other episodes did. Like Guardian Enzo said, the show has recently felt very imbalanced and it seems over obsessed with Ringo.

I don't particularly dislike Ringo, I initially liked her, and at some point even found her empathetic. While she is still entertaining though, empathy has gone out the window. In her descent into complete and utter insanity, all semblance of care for her problems is not really out there. I'm not even sure if she's pitiful at the moment, but now she's even passed into the realm of disturbing.

Again, like others, I don't know Ikuhara and I can't blindly hold faith that this all sorts itself out in the end. If it does, great, but it's very true that the latest episodes played around too long with Ringo and could've been condensed. There are aspects of the story that certainly can't be fully evaluated until they play their part, but there others that don't change no matter what. That's what this "imbalance" was.

Like Triple_R said, the next episode is certainly going to be an important juncture of this show's run. Is Ikuhara overplaying his hand? Where is the plot being guided to? What is Penguindrum truly about? We hear a lot about fate, among other things, but what exactly is he trying to tell us and should we care? Right now, despite a semblance of a big underlying theme, I haven't been felt compelled to truly care about plot centering around Ringo. I'm not sure if I ever will, and really I'm just confused by the director's intentions.

Now about episode 8 specifically... Like I said before, Ringo has passed into the realm of being disturbing. Where they go with this, I don't know. I'm glad that we once again got a hint of something underneath Shoma's "innocence" that Kanba hinted at earlier, but I'm still looking for the moment that they capitalize on it.

I think I'd have to agree with Guardian Enzo overall about the length of Penguindrum. I don't think they've put to good use so far the 2 cours, and if this persists going into the 2nd cour that would be annoying. There's been now 3 or so episodes in this series that felt very slow in pacing, plot, and characterization.

My initial positivism on this anime is starting to be neutered. I liked what I saw at the end of this episode, as I feel they're starting to stop dicking around too much but they really got to start capitlizing on at least some of the groundwork laid here beyond the extreme Ringo fetish of the director.
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Old 2011-09-02, 18:10   Link #1066
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The cliffhanger appears to be a red herring as someone from another forum spotted this:

Spoiler for MPD Episode 8:
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Old 2011-09-02, 18:51   Link #1067
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"You're the crazy bitch I know."

LOL. Well said, but Ringo's strangely alluring for someone that's batshit insane. Poor Shouma; what lengths will he go to help Ringo out on her mad quest. Seeing her father does not help matters.

But too much is too much, and Ringo even knocks people out in some kind of desperate attempt to furfill project M, without any concern for anyone else. That's the problem with stalkers; they really don't care about the object of their affection, merely their own obsession with them.

It all falls apart, and the boiling part comes with the tearing at the diary. It was too much for Ringo, and she's even willing to kill herself at this point. But oh wait, Shouma once again stops her from fucking herself over. This time he gets hit by a car. Well, that's gonna be interesting.

Also, loL@ chopstick fighting and the penguin channel.
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Old 2011-09-02, 18:54   Link #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
The cliffhanger appears to be a red herring as someone from another forum spotted this:

Spoiler for MPD Episode 8:
Yeah, although it's still a pretty big blow so I expect him to be out of commission for a few episodes.

I also gotta say that while I do want to learn Kanba's secretes and see his side of the plot integrated better into the overall picture, I don't want the series's POV to shift from Shouma to him. He's cool and all, but having to see things from his perspective all the time will end up being extremely tiring with his personality being the way it is. Anyway, let's wait and see what Ikuhara has in store for us.
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Old 2011-09-02, 19:00   Link #1069
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
"You're the crazy bitch I know."
Aw, that translation kinda screws up the underlying meaning of the line IMO. What he really said is something more like:

"Your heart is much blacker than any other girl I've met"

In other words, he calls her out on her lack of morals not her craziness. That's why it actually hits her, since she isn't really amoral (yet? )
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Old 2011-09-02, 19:17   Link #1070
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Oops I meant craziest, but yea, the sub doesn't really do it any justice.

Thanks. I guess it makes sense, since he already knew he was crazy, but Ringo also became utterly despicable here.
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Old 2011-09-02, 20:35   Link #1071
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think I'd have to agree with Guardian Enzo overall about the length of Penguindrum. I don't think they've put to good use so far the 2 cours, and if this persists going into the 2nd cour that would be annoying. There's been now 3 or so episodes in this series that felt very slow in pacing, plot, and characterization.
But that's just the thing; because the show is two cours, and is not an adaptation, it's impossible for anyone to say whether the pacing is slow or not.
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Old 2011-09-02, 20:43   Link #1072
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Yeah, it's too early to judge whether the show is putting its time to good use right now, especially considering that anything and everything could be connected to the Penguindrum for all we know. Plus, the "plot" isn't really that important in the first place when it comes to Ikuhara, which is why we have absolutely no exposition. The important thing in this series is the message trying to be conveyed.
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Old 2011-09-02, 21:13   Link #1073
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I know this isn't likely, but this episode felt oddly climactic, and it got me thinking: It would be interesting if they rewound the series at this point and replayed it from another perspective, say from Kanba's and/or Himari's. Same time span, but their story. Maybe even go over it again a third time from the perspective of Tabuki, or the slingshot sniper before bringing it all together again at the end.

More likely though, this is just another bump in the road (ehh.. poor choice of words) and things will just plug along as they've been going.

As an aside, I finally watched Night on the Galactic Railroad for the first time since I was too young to really "get it", and hoo boy. Throw a few penguins in that movie, and it's a crazier trip than anything Ikuhara's done.
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Old 2011-09-02, 21:18   Link #1074
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BINGO! This is going to be long. So please bear with me and read it through - especially if you commented on the last post of mine. I am gonna go backwards and pick up the most interesting posts to reply to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I really hate to say this but don't take this personally, because this appears to be a general trend everywhere...
Agreed that this is the general trend, but that doesn't take away from it's value. That something is general doesn't mean it's worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But he and others are calling it as it is. Whether you disagree or not, people have thoughts and those can be changed eventually. You can't fault people not being satisfied.
You can fault people making very specific remarks about a product before it's even done. Massive amount of crying over pre-alpha screenshots of an as of yet unreleased game, or remarking that an anime should be shorter before it's even halfway through, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
See, some of us would rather not fanboy over certain directors and concentrate on the show itself. I'm really sorry that some of us can't comprehend the genius and are slower, but if the show is really that great, then it'll prove itself and their minds are changed.
May sound surprising, but I don't care about Ikuhara at all. I wrote in my post that I am more or less with Guardian_Enzo when he called RGU a show with many faults and some surreal elements/moments that make it a worthy watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
If it doesn't... what can it do? The first use of an anime is to entertain, and you're basically saying "Stop complaining about not having fun!"
I don't see how I could have not come across any less condescending other than not making that post at all and I had not a good enough reason not to make it. I had enough of a reason to make it, on the other hand, for I like activity and it sure generated it. Too bad I wasn't able to participate at all though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It's nice that you and others are able to appreciate this. But please realize that not others feel the same way; the way you're posting makes it feel like you're worrying about his lack of enjoyment is somehow corroding your enjoyment.
I doubt I appreciate it any more than Guardian_Enzo does tbh. It's just that he posted a critical approach and I posted a counter approach to that. I am very positive that our level of enjoyment from the show is very similar otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Assuming it's all part of the plan and everything will unfold perfectly is also making too many assumptions. For some of us, the show must prove its value before we can give it that kind of credit, and thus people are calling it out on what they've seen too far.
It's always a question of balance. Calling out on something before it has even started taking it's intended motion isn't entirely right either - and that's all I wanted to highlight with my post. I don't disagree with anything Guardian_Enzo said or anything you are saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Personally, I like the show. But when addressing people who aren't impressed, you're using a worthless argument. You can't give credit to stuff people haven't done yet (future episodes).

TL;DR It's up to the anime to prove itself to the viewers
Agreed, but it also requires the viewer to withhold judgment until they see enough of it. Not liking something personally vs criticizing something is different. I think I wrote something like "like it or not, up to you" and it entirely is but if someone wishes to make valid and more importantly, specific, criticisms of the show then they should wait until they have seen enough of it to point out the details pertaining to the specifics. The specifics in this case was the length of the show and if I had not much respect for Guardian_Enzo, I wouldn't bother saying anything at all. It's precisely because I like his "criticisms" usually that I said what I did.


Kay - that was one type of comments - you shouldn't say such things - that I got. And the tl;dr version of my reply is that everything that can be said is a valid enough thing to say. To wuss out and not say it is the wrong thing - not otherwise. Guardian_Enzo received many /bows from me for saying the stuff he said out loud before I proceeded to make that post against his line of thought.

Next is the most general type of comments - not necessarily much different from the previous one but slightly more involved with the show itself than the moral issues of posting an opinion yada yada.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
One man's trash, you know? What you're effectively saying is, "Take the show as the director intends it and shut up." That doesn't inspire much of a discussion, does it? Offering critical commentary isn't "playing the critic" as you so condescendingly put it - it's participating in a discussion. If you're not comfortable with anything but positive commentary, you're the one with the problem.
I didn't mean for it to sound condescending but there was no way I could make it any less condescending than not saying it at all so I just wrote something that I was 100% sure would spark some discussion, and so it did. That post did inspire discussion, and thus it achieved its goal, in so far as I am concerned.

I quite enjoy your posts and I never meant to imply you had a problem but that you should leave very specific remarks such as the proper length of the show until after the show is done and not before. I have many problems, but not being comfortable with positive commentary isn't one. My problem there - and anywhere else - is playing the devil's advocate to a flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
It's certainly valid to love Ringo as a character - different viewers are going to react differently to a character as a matter of course. I'd certainly take issue with the statement that we've never seen anything like her - we've seen lots of characters like her. In fact, she's practically a trope. It's just that - in my view - many of those characters were executed much more effectively. I'll certainly agree she's much different from Utena as a character - they fill a different role and represent a different perspective.
I don't think you can find a character who does all that Ringo does with such a weak justification. Most other characters that have insanity as their primary "virtue" are made out to have much more valid reasons behind their "fall" than Ringo. I don't disagree that it's up to the individual to like or dislike something. I can at least agree with you on that she's crazy. Whether you like crazy people or not doesn't concern me. I don't think I espoused much on that regard on my post but if I did, it was only weak articulation on my part and I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
In terms of whether the show is fresh and whether it would benefit from brevity, again, it's a matter of opinion. There's plenty here that was fresh - the first time we saw it, seven eps ago. Now that we're seeing it for the nth time without anything beyond cosmetic change, it isn't quite so fresh. That was an issue I had with Utena and why I worry about MPD - it felt like a lot of the freshness was packed into the early parts of the series and a lot of the creative spark was stale by the end. RGU was 39 eps, I believe, so that was always going to be a challenge. That''s why the "no wasted frames" argument doesn't fly with me, because I see Ikuhara using not just recycled imagery, but recycled imagery to accomplish the same result. And we're only 8 episodes in.
Sorry but reusing "stock footage" as some people put it also has the effect of reenforcing themes and highlighting oddities and such. It's a matter of style and your not liking is fine but for it to be a critical flaw, you'd need to wait until you have seen enough of the show. It basically boils down to what your aim with your posts are. I consider your posts as that of an intelligent man pointing out valid criticisms - and those require a certain etiquette, if you will - but if you are saying you are simply posting your personal opinion all the time then I have no say and I apologize for thinking too highly of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Is this interesting? Absolutely - it's the most visually striking series of the season. Ikuhara is undeniably a man with a genius for surrealism and his skill at composing a shot is stunning - he has a great imagination and a great eye. I just see worrying signs that his discipline isn't at that same level and I think the balance of the show has gone out of whack with the last few episodes and their obsessive focus on Ringo. It might be a different view than yours, but I don't buy the premise that not accepting what a director is doing at face value makes your opinion invalid.
Valid worries, and ones I don't necessarily not share. The premise I wished to bring forward wasn't that you should accept everything at face value but that perhaps - and it was just a perhaps - you were being overly critical of the show because of the "reputation" surrounding it which is just as bad as making it out to be something beyond what it is that some people do. In any case, I certainly do think a valid comment about the length of the show can only come after the majority of it has aired and not before. It's simply assuming more than you know otherwise.


Kay that was that. The tl;dr version is that I merely meant to play the devil's advocate and actually share much of the concerns about the show but I only wanted to suggest taking a slightly different approach - that of wait and watch a while - before we write it off. In the end, everyone's gonna do that so saying it was redundant but what gives, I had ample time and the post was made primarily with the intention of causing ripples - creating activity out of thin air, if you will - than much anything else anyway.

And the final one is the "ugly" types of comments that I was most looking forward to - if I am not to lie. The ones that accuse me of being a fanboy, having a biased outlook and such. Archon_wing is right about the tone of my previous post being used quite frequently nowadays and this is another tone that is being used quite often to quieten voices and one that's dirtier, imho.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Holy shit really?! Has this thread really gotten to the level where people aren't even allowed to question RGU/MPD/Ikuhara period? Also how can anyone say that comparing RGU and MPD is a bad idea when the whole thread has basically been spent doing so? Not that I would disagree at all since I personally have become rather bored of seeing Ikuhara and RGU praised non-stop up and down the board (arguably they've been talked about more than MPD itself) by some users while there's a perfectly new and fresh show to be experienced.
Sorry to disappoint your expectations but I don't care about Ikuhara at all. I care for him less than you do - given that you want to "hack him down to Earth" - while I don't care about his name at all. I like the subtle details he puts in the show and that's more or less it. I don't care for names at all.

How can I say comparing RGU and MPD is a bad idea after the whole thread was basically spent doing so? Precisely because the whole thread was spent basically doing so. Oh and I rewatched RGU after MPD and it didn't really do much more for me than Guardian_Enzo said - some brilliantly done surreal moments here and there. MPD is doing better and I want people to focus on MPD rather than keep bringing up RGU or the director or whatever. I don't think my post mentioned the director's appeal, his previous works or anything of the sort at all - other than the remark that this show should be treated on its own merit and I don't see you disagreeing, so what's the problem here again? I know. The problem is that you assumed my post was made because I was hurt as a fan of Ikuhara and given that you wish to "hack him down to earth", you couldn't not pounce upon the opportunity. I know that it's not that bad but I generally like to make things sound bad because that's how I roll. My reasoning behind it is the belief that people reflect a lot more when they are accused than otherwise. Pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I mean I've kind of been joking before, but this is getting more than a little ridiculous. Some people need to stop being so damn overbearing about Ikuhara and whatever legacy he might have left with Utena and just allow the flow and generation of ideas to flourish here or this thread is more done than it already is. I think they know who they are by the way.
I don't give the slightest damn about Ikuhara and I thought it was precisely my point that people shouldn't compare RGU and MPD. How you moved from "omg how can people say "don't compare RGU and MPD" after 9001 pages of doing so?!!!!" to "people should freaking stop that Utena thing and only talk about this fresh show" was amusing, to say the least. I am not one of those who cares for Utena or any director, VA, bla bla. There is only one person I would stay faithful to for a while and that has more to do with him having been backstabbed brutally where he shouldn't have been than my being a fanboy and even then, I will jump ships the first sign I get that his ship is but definitely gonna sink. I am cruel like that.


That's about all I have to say about that post or anything arising from it.

Few clarifications I would like to make.

I don't care about the reputation of the staff doing this for the most part.

All the stuff about RGU in this and the previous post of mine pertains to RGU the series and not the movie. The movie is arguably better.

I made that post expecting exactly this. I don't necessarily feel good about it - especially because I couldn't enjoy the ripples it created thanks to College etc. - but I must say it didn't turn out too bad.

And lastly, nothing personal intended towards everyone. If you get mad, it's only your loss

OT: I agree that the next episode will make or break this show.
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Old 2011-09-02, 21:36   Link #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Agreed that this is the general trend, but that doesn't take away from it's value. That something is general doesn't mean it's worthless.
That wasn't my point. I'm saying it's a trend that's so annoying I had to comment on it

Quote:
You can fault people making very specific remarks about a product before it's even done. Massive amount of crying over pre-alpha screenshots of an as of yet unreleased game, or remarking that an anime should be shorter before it's even halfway through, for instance.
Bad analogy. If we're talking development stage (that'd be before the show), of course you can't preemptively say it's gonna suck. But while one can't make statements about the show in general, like it or not, 8 episodes is enough to form a significant impression.

And sometimes criticism before something is done is still legitimate. During the Beta stage, Starcraft II had a multiplayer service that was trash that lacked many critical features its predecessor had. Excuses of "wait til its done" were thrown about, and guess what? It still had the same issue at release.

You're right we should give people leeway, but at the same time criticism isn't invalid.

Quote:
May sound surprising, but I don't care about Ikuhara at all. I wrote in my post that I am more or less with Guardian_Enzo when he called RGU a show with many faults and some surreal elements/moments that make it a worthy watch.
Not surprising but that's good to hear.
Quote:
I don't see how I could have not come across any less condescending other than not making that post at all and I had not a good enough reason not to make it. I had enough of a reason to make it, on the other hand, for I like activity and it sure generated it. Too bad I wasn't able to participate at all though.
Actually I didn't care about your tone at all, only that the argument doesn't really help to someone who doesn't appreciate certain elements.

Quote:
I doubt I appreciate it any more than Guardian_Enzo does tbh. It's just that he posted a critical approach and I posted a counter approach to that. I am very positive that our level of enjoyment from the show is very similar otherwise.
Well, if someone doesn't like aspects of the show, it's just very useful to counter them with we don't know what's gonna happen next. It's up to the show to provide that kind of faith.

Basically I argue that since we have no idea of what's coming up, then future events are neutral... and thus we can only provide meaningful thoughts on what we've already seen.

My point is, if something clicks, people can always retract their statements.

Quote:
It's always a question of balance. Calling out on something before it has even started taking it's intended motion isn't entirely right either - and that's all I wanted to highlight with my post. I don't disagree with anything Guardian_Enzo said or anything you are saying here.
I'd only agree if people started threatening to drop the show, or something equally as extreme.

Quote:
Agreed, but it also requires the viewer to withhold judgment until they see enough of it. Not liking something personally vs criticizing something is different. I think I wrote something like "like it or not, up to you" and it entirely is but if someone wishes to make valid and more importantly, specific, criticisms of the show then they should wait until they have seen enough of it to point out the details pertaining to the specifics. The specifics in this case was the length of the show and if I had not much respect for Guardian_Enzo, I wouldn't bother saying anything at all. It's precisely because I like his "criticisms" usually that I said what I did.
And I just think there are better ways of defending a show. I believe I can do it with what we've already seen instead of promises of what we could see.

Quote:
Kay - that was one type of comments - you shouldn't say such things - that I got. And the tl;dr version of my reply is that everything that can be said is a valid enough thing to say. To wuss out and not say it is the wrong thing - not otherwise. Guardian_Enzo received many /bows from me before I proceeded to make that post against his line of though.
I'd kinda disagree that everything that can be said is valid, but eh... yea. I never implied you hated him or anything.

I mean the whole thing lately is about Ringo, her character, and relevance to the lot. Someone that has massive issues with Ringo is gonna not be as excited. Personally, I think the show does a great job of showing her insanity, and her effect on the leads.
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Old 2011-09-02, 21:45   Link #1076
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But that's just the thing; because the show is two cours, and is not an adaptation, it's impossible for anyone to say whether the pacing is slow or not.
Incorrect.

If episode A covered a certain amount of ground, and episode B only covered like 1/5 of that ground without much else to entertain, while the rest of the episodes keep up at A's pace.... That's a problem. Inconcistent pacing.

In Penguindrum's case it's a case of an "imbalance" of content and an obsession with the character Ringo, where there's only so much of her story you can really give. They've pretty much ran the water well dry at this point for her character. So much so, that some of the more recent episodes seemed to drag because there's nothing to get from her character at this point (At this stage of development).

Now Ringo has more opportunity to develop and recover as a human being, but there's other characters in this cast too that I find interesting like Kanba, so I really hope that Ringo doesn't continue to steal the spotlight all the way through.
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Old 2011-09-02, 21:56   Link #1077
Muan
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I think Ringo has been screaming "The Ring is MINE!" for long enough now that her end can't be far. Still, when the reprehensible character is a girl, there is no moral event horizon, so the writers will, I think, very likely give her a heel face turn at some point and its going to suck for the story (especially if she is "redeemed through the power of love"). The only real way to save this is to let Ringo fall on her face and let her world fall around her, then let her realize it was all a bunch of lies to begin with and she's better off now without all the crap she's losing. Chances of her handling that without the use of a utility knife and a warm bath are slim to none though so I think we can count on the power of lover and/or friendship to cheese things up.

Enough being pessemistic, though, what exactly is Ringo accusing Sho of around 19:30? He... doesn't care about Himari... but he wants a happy family life... ? Does he like Kanba? First of all, if Sho doesn't care about Himari, could have fooled me. Is she saying he's like Kanba and doesn't think of Himari as a sister? Is that what she's saying? Or is it that Sho secretly HATES EVERYONE but doesn't want to cause any trouble?
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Old 2011-09-02, 22:01   Link #1078
Flower
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
....I mean the whole thing lately is about Ringo, her character, and relevance to the lot. Someone that has massive issues with Ringo is gonna not be as excited. Personally, I think the show does a great job of showing her insanity, and her effect on the leads.
To contribute a little (and possibly tangentially) to the discussion at hand ... to be honest I am one of those people who does have "massive issues with Ringo".... And it actually did make me drop the show as of last episode. I will probably pick the show up again later on after the season is over at some time, but to be honest I just could not stomach the frequent, outright cruelty she showed towards the younger brother.

Yes, as she was depicted up to ep. 7 she was obviously a psychologically damaged kid, and yes I felt pretty sorry for her. But that is one thing - the content % wise that the show seemed to give to showing how outright nasty she was (apart from the story) actually "jolted me out of the series" itself repeatedly and was a big turn off ... actually I think I was complaining about it the past few episodes most every time I posted about them.

The wacky, intricate symbolism and talented animation "camera angles" or style and the rest to the series are all good and nice, I guess. But for me they were not "strong enough" to counterbalance the intensity of disliking being shown the scenes of nastiness on Ringo's part.

But to be fair I think I am personally a little "sensitive" to the "young women beating up on/abusing young men doubling as doormats" thing - I already disliked it before watching the series. So I don't know if you could really use my individual example as indicative of any "bigger trend" or what not. Many people seem to be enjoying the portrayal of Ringo as accurate (as Archong Wing mentioned above) and even engaging, and are not "disturbed" by the abusive scenes to the degree I was.

Again - I will prolly pick up the series after it is all "said and done" at a later date when I have the time and inclination....
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Old 2011-09-02, 23:36   Link #1079
Crontica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muan View Post
Enough being pessemistic, though, what exactly is Ringo accusing Sho of around 19:30? He... doesn't care about Himari... but he wants a happy family life... ? Does he like Kanba? First of all, if Sho doesn't care about Himari, could have fooled me. Is she saying he's like Kanba and doesn't think of Himari as a sister? Is that what she's saying? Or is it that Sho secretly HATES EVERYONE but doesn't want to cause any trouble?
Thats a very interesting question as i've found Shouma to be hesitant for one episode too many in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.

About 5 episodes back the atmosphere in the house was quite dim for a few minutes, both of the brothers taking a quick glance at Himari, their internal dialogues being hard to decipher until the first survival strategy incident with Kanba actually having feelings for her while Shouma's actions have only become more questionable over time.

Again the brotherly duo haven't been given enough screen time yet, heck they've barely even showed us their classrooms yet.
So i can't say for sure whether he likes Kanba or is naturally that accident prone.

All i can say is if they don't deal with the unstable bitch soon... well it may be more than a car next time.
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Old 2011-09-02, 23:44   Link #1080
fertygo
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Oh boy now I know what kind of discussion that we can seen if Utena run ongoing in this era

Btw about eps 8, wow that was fantastic, I must admit 2-3 eps before this one kinda tiring me but this eps reminded me of classic Ikuhara's pull-up after we thought "this is getting boring"

Bravo, the latter half of this show gonna be fun.
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