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Old 2011-09-04, 16:41   Link #24161
Renall
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well he could say Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu. Even this is something he was told by someone and not something he could confirm.
It was also actually true though, although we have no good way of knowing how someone would've known that.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:22   Link #24162
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Battler could say ''Ushiromiya Battler is the son of Asumu''(or whatever he said exactly), this is because he ''knows'' it, even if it isn't technically true.

Battler could not say ''It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born'' because he didn't know.
He could tell it.

I do not require chatter. Let's continue. 'Your name is Ushiromiya Battler'."
"......Sure. My name is Ushiromiya Battler."

"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born."
"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born."

"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you were born."
"It was from Ushiromiya, ......, ......nguh, ............?! ......?!?!"

As you can see he knows that Asumu had a baby who should technically be called Battler. Since he was a newborn back then when Asumu had a baby the only way he could know is if someone else told him. It's not direct knowledge.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:26   Link #24163
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It was also actually true though, although we have no good way of knowing how someone would've known that.

Well, it's Kinzo who picked up the names for his grandchildren apart from Maria so Asumu's child's name should have been Battler. No idea if Kirye had thought to a name or if she wanted to call him Battler as well or... whatever else but, unless Asumu's child were to be a girl I'm sure he would have been called Battler. Rudolf switched the names so that Battler ended up being Kirye's baby while Kirye's baby ended up being Battler 2.

To make things simple let's assume Kirye never though to a name to give to her baby and didn't want to name 'him' once she was told 'he' was dead and we've two Battler, Asumu's and Kirye's.
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Old 2011-09-04, 18:14   Link #24164
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But in my "I met Sumadera Kyrie on the street today" example, you're assuming the knowledge exists in that context to prohibit me from saying that. What if the person I'm telling this to, just like me, doesn't know she married? What if the "Game Master" of my particular story or board doesn't know this? It's impossible that I would just magically be prevented from saying someone's name.
But that is exactly what the red truth does. It magically prevents you from saying things that are untrue in the context of what you are talking about.
In the example you gave of you being the Game Master, your story would be a different one than Yasu's or Tya's tales. You could of course include a Sumadera Kyrie, but to be able to say that the woman at Ushiromiya Rudolph's side is Sumadera Kasumi you would limit that to your own tale and it would only be the truth of your forgery and not THE truth. Like Beatrice was able to say things like Kanon definitely died in this room when possibly he did not die there in any other story than Turn of the Golden Witch.
It would be your truth, but it wouldn't be THE truth. So if you were asked about it outside of the context of your own game it might be completely different. Like I could say Ushiromiya Eva only survived Banquet, End and Requiem of the Golden Witch when I am talking about the games, but of course she survived Rokkenjima and this still doesn't mean that Banquet is the truth. So I could say that "Sumadera Kyrie never arrived on Rokkenjima in 1986 during Beatrice's games, because she was already dead and her body wandered around". It's exactly the same scenario as with Kanon killing Nanj and Kumasawa in EP2.

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What if George likes to refer to himself as Pookie Worthington and refuses to recognize himself as Ushiromiya George, but he's never told anyone this? Would it be impossible to say anything about "George" in red in a Rokkenjima game? I don't see why.
As long as it is not known by the author of the individual piece it is of no concern to the story in itself, but it can be overwritten by knowledge gained in the future. For what it is worth, Battler could have spontaneously decided not to go to the island at all because he hates his family and so Yasu's stories wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Anyway, Maria's worldview and why it's moronic to use as the basis for red.
If we go by what every character told us, Maria is basically the incarnation of Golden Truth. Like Ange said in EP4, she was the only one who truly understood the power of magic and how it should be used to create good and dispell the shadows from your world. Maria's worldview cannot be taken as basis for an effective red truth if for the fact alone that Maria's worldview is magic through and through.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Someone in that scenario apparently had more knowledge than him. Beatrice, "God-the-Author," whatever. Someone on a level higher than Battler in that scene had factual knowledge that he was not Asumu-born. Otherwise we acknowledge that we just randomly cannot say things in red, yet have no idea when that would happen or why. If so, "x is the killer on R-Prime" repeat until you can successfully use red would actually work.
Let's imagine what actually happened to Tya in the moment he thought about that instance.
He remembered meeting a woman who looked somehow like the witch in the portrait he remembered seeing in the memory of Ushiromiya Battler. He also remembered her asking him about an ominous sin he commited and that he did si against somebody on the island who he made a promise to when he last came to the island.
His memory is probably so hazy that he doesn't remember anything so far back yet...so of course it leads to a simple and yet very complicated question: Am I even Ushiromiya Battler or am I only filling the blank space in my amnesiac mind with the story of somebody I read about on the internet? And if I really was there in 1986...am I really Battler? People in the message bottle stories (Turn of the Golden Witch) doubted Battler being the same Battler. Maybe I am a fraud. Who am I?!
This is visualized through us in a battle between Battler (Tya who wants to know what happened) and Beatrice (the full knowledge of Rokkenjima/Battler's full memory) in which he starts to doubt himself so much that he wants to quit the game altogether. And this of course implies that Battler actually learned of the fact that he wasn't Asumu's son...and it is basically of no real concern when he learned it. Rudolph could have told him exactly that as a reason to come back to his family.
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Old 2011-09-04, 18:24   Link #24165
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Let's imagine what actually happened to Tya in the moment he thought about that instance.
He remembered meeting a woman who looked somehow like the witch in the portrait he remembered seeing in the memory of Ushiromiya Battler. He also remembered her asking him about an ominous sin he commited and that he did si against somebody on the island who he made a promise to when he last came to the island.
His memory is probably so hazy that he doesn't remember anything so far back yet...so of course it leads to a simple and yet very complicated question: Am I even Ushiromiya Battler or am I only filling the blank space in my amnesiac mind with the story of somebody I read about on the internet? And if I really was there in 1986...am I really Battler? People in the message bottle stories (Turn of the Golden Witch) doubted Battler being the same Battler. Maybe I am a fraud. Who am I?!
This is visualized through us in a battle between Battler (Tya who wants to know what happened) and Beatrice (the full knowledge of Rokkenjima/Battler's full memory) in which he starts to doubt himself so much that he wants to quit the game altogether. And this of course implies that Battler actually learned of the fact that he wasn't Asumu's son...and it is basically of no real concern when he learned it.
*nods* Also Toya didn't want to be Battler. He had his own life and feared his Battler persona would replace him. Plus I guess he feared Battler's memories weren't exactly the kind of memories you want to have if Battler knew the truth about Rokkenjima. And anyway if would mean to have nearly all his relatives dead, to end under the media's attention and a witch hunters target.

It's easy to watch the Rokkenjima incident when it doesn't touch you but it wouldn't be so funny when you discover people are writing fictions about how your family was killed and actually you've been doing that as well.

Really, he has good reasons for trying to reject the Battler persona.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Rudolph could have told him exactly that as a reason to come back to his family.
I've considered it... but then I'd like to know if Ep 1 Rudolf's we've to talk about the family was in the original message bottle or it was pushed in the story by Battler...
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Old 2011-09-04, 18:25   Link #24166
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Some questions that make my head hurt. I recently finished the EP 8.

In EP 8 when Battler and Beatrice are to escape the island, through dialogue is suggested that both are in love and are intimate. But that is 6 years Battler not visit Rokkenjima, then how do you explain this degree of passion between them? Passion enough to justify suicide. All this passion came in 2 days?
That to me can only be explained if, after Ange made ​​your choice, Battler and Beatrice in 1986 were with the knowledge of all the games and what happened in the battle for the Golden Land. Unless this scene can not be trusted, but I doubt it, because it is one of the final scenes.

Another question. Why Battler and Beatrice are together in EP 8 when Battler put Beatrice to sleep in EP 7?

Sorry, but my English is terrible.
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Old 2011-09-04, 18:29   Link #24167
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
Some questions that make my head hurt. I recently finished the EP 8.

In EP 8 when Battler and Beatrice are to escape the island, through dialogue is suggested that both are in love and are intimate. But that is 6 years Battler not visit Rokkenjima, then how do you explain this degree of passion between them? Passion enough to justify suicide. All this passion came in 2 days?
That to me can only be explained if, after Ange made ​​your choice, Battler and Beatrice in 1986 were with the knowledge of all the games and what happened in the battle for the Golden Land. Unless this scene can not be trusted, but I doubt it, because it is one of the final scenes.

Another question. Why Battler and Beatrice are together in EP 8 when Battler put Beatrice to sleep in EP 7?

Sorry, but my English is terrible.

I think it's a metaphorical scene. Battler wouldn't have gone calmly on a boat and he didn't drow with Beatrice.

It likely represents the fact that Beatrice's identity died with Rokkenjima and Battler's identity died with his amnesia. The two were closed in the catbox and are happily living together in the realm of fantasy.
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Old 2011-09-04, 18:55   Link #24168
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think it's a metaphorical scene. Battler wouldn't have gone calmly on a boat and he didn't drow with Beatrice.

It likely represents the fact that Beatrice's identity died with Rokkenjima and Battler's identity died with his amnesia. The two were closed in the catbox and are happily living together in the realm of fantasy.
What he said. The whole scene was seen from the eyes of a Battler who has just been traumatized by the death of all of his relatives after discovering the truth behind Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice and the fact that he was the trigger of it all.

So Battler deluded himself into believing he was escaping with "Beatrice" probably as a way to remedy is own sin inside his mind. But of course "Beatrice" couldn't go to the world of humans with Battler, because she belonged to the world of illusions. So "Battler" decided to join her in the oblivion, leaving behind an empty shell that would later become Tohya.

Quote:
Another question. Why Battler and Beatrice are together in EP 8 when Battler put Beatrice to sleep in EP 7?
The events on the metaworld are probably the consequence of something that happened very later, hence the reason why a 18 years old Ange could be there.
Battler putting Beatrice to sleep could be some kind of metaphor for Tohya who after remembering the truth decided to seal it. But that probably happened many years after the Rokkenjima incident.
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Old 2011-09-04, 19:12   Link #24169
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Probably this is true. I had thought of something similar, but have difficulty in accepting this.
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Old 2011-09-04, 19:25   Link #24170
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've considered it... but then I'd like to know if Ep 1 Rudolf's we've to talk about the family was in the original message bottle or it was pushed in the story by Battler...
Btw, again with my Rondo observations, the size of the contents in the message bottle is diferent in Rondo than in the manga(and IIRC the anime). It's not a massive thing, only three notebook pages, with a big handwriting. Even if it was front and back, no way everything in one episode would fit there.

I don't know how far we can trust it, what with each source saying something different, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that Rondo was more closely watched by Ryukishi than the manga. Just though I'd share the information anyway, since no one else seem to be palying Rondo.

Also, I think it was you who had asked whether Maria's Sakutarou had that fluffy thing in the neck too. I checked, he has. It shows before maria puts the scarf on him.
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Old 2011-09-04, 19:29   Link #24171
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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Btw, again with my Rondo observations, the size of the contents in the message bottle is diferent in Rondo than in the manga(and IIRC the anime). It's not a massive thing, only three notebook pages, with a big handwriting. Even if it was front and back, no way everything in one episode would fit there.
Well, it's much more reasonable if it's just few pages instead than the whole episode. I approve this change.

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I don't know how far we can trust it, what with each source saying something different, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that Rondo was more closely watched by Ryukishi than the manga. Just though I'd share the information anyway, since no one else seem to be palying Rondo.
Thank you so much for sharing the info!

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Also, I think it was you who had asked whether Maria's Sakutarou had that fluffy thing in the neck too. I checked, he has. It shows before maria puts the scarf on him.
*nods* It was me. Okay, this shot down the idea the Sakutarou aren't related to Sakutaro. In order to know what's under the scarf one has to know Sakutaro...
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Old 2011-09-04, 20:09   Link #24172
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Well, it's much more reasonable if it's just few pages instead than the whole episode. I approve this change.
Does this mean that we can stop analyzing which scenes we can actually pay attention to and which actually exist in the text, etc. etc and just take the entire episodes as Meta-layer constructs? I really never liked breaking the stories apart like that and I never once suspected it was Ryukishi's intentions; he's just not that deep with his writing process.
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Old 2011-09-04, 20:24   Link #24173
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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Btw, again with my Rondo observations, the size of the contents in the message bottle is diferent in Rondo than in the manga(and IIRC the anime). It's not a massive thing, only three notebook pages, with a big handwriting. Even if it was front and back, no way everything in one episode would fit there.
What bugs me a little is the part about big handwriting, because if I remember correctly tsuki said that the message bottle letters were written in tiny letters so to fit as much on a page as possible...though I'd have to recheck that.
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Old 2011-09-04, 21:12   Link #24174
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What bugs me a little is the part about big handwriting, because if I remember correctly tsuki said that the message bottle letters were written in tiny letters so to fit as much on a page as possible...though I'd have to recheck that.
Well, big handwritting is only my opinion of what it is. But there are a lots of lines in blank, so it doesn't look like there was much of an effort on making room for much.

Err, I don't know how to take a screen out of a tv, I could take a photo but it wouldn't look good... Maybe someone with a rip could find it and post it?

The text was very, very blurred, but I could still recognize some of the characters. There's a chance someone a little better than me in japanese could even make out SOME of what's written there...

Another unrelated observation I've made is that we are shown much sooner that the master keys are rings of keys. I think that was only clear by ep7 in the VN. I think the anime showed them as a single key each, too...

(Also, Kinzo seems to keep his books and magic stuff locked - but I'm not really sure about this one...)
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Old 2011-09-04, 21:36   Link #24175
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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Btw, again with my Rondo observations, the size of the contents in the message bottle is diferent in Rondo than in the manga(and IIRC the anime). It's not a massive thing, only three notebook pages, with a big handwriting. Even if it was front and back, no way everything in one episode would fit there.

I don't know how far we can trust it, what with each source saying something different, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that Rondo was more closely watched by Ryukishi than the manga. Just though I'd share the information anyway, since no one else seem to be palying Rondo.
I played rondo from start to end, but I really didn't pay much attention to the art because I don't really think it can be considered 100% reliable and in any case you are supposed to solve the mystery without those "hints".

Anyway from EP4:

Quote:
`......After all, the amount of writing was massive.`@
`It's hard to imagine that someone actually caught up in the middle of a serial murder like that would be able to calmly write it down.`\
So we can assume the stories are very long and are written on a lot of pages.
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Old 2011-09-04, 22:24   Link #24176
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So we can assume the stories are very long and are written on a lot of pages.
I'd be pretty surprised already if someone took the time to write three pages of text during a serial murder. It's "massive" when you consider the situation. Sometimes in high school, kids would look at this one classmate's 20 lines longer than requested writing assignement and call that massive, so...

But yeah, I agree that it's still safer to consider the original base text as the only truly reliable thing. It's just that some clues from outside might shed some light on things that are difficult to interpret, or weren't meant to be unclear.

For example, If I'm not mistaken, that line about George being the only grandson of Kinzo was fixed. We can take that as a hint that there was nothing to speculate about there. That was probably quite obvious already, but in a story where you never know where to look for clues, this kind of thing helps.

Ryukishi did make a statement about that, didn't he? Unless you think that's just his marketing strategy (Which is very plausible, actually.)
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Old 2011-09-05, 00:08   Link #24177
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"Massive" is a terrible word to use when you really mean "A lot considering the situation."

Any Japanese readers able to shed light on the original wording?
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Old 2011-09-05, 06:53   Link #24178
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Sorry I think I should have given a bit more of context.

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Without waiting for the magazines' reasoning, it's very suspicious whether the message bottle really is a diary.
......After all, the amount of writing was massive.
`It's hard to imagine that someone actually caught up in the middle of a serial murder like that would be able to calmly write it down.
In that case, it's probably more realistic that this diary was written slowly over a long period of time up until the day prior to the accident.

That was said by Professor Ootsuki talking to Ange about the messages he has seen personally.

The meaning of that is therefore: "I've seen the messages, it was a lot of writing, so I don't really think they were done in one day during the serial murder (as the story wants to make us believe by claiming it was written by Ushiromiya Maria)"

anyway the original japanese word is: "膨大" which can be translated as "huge" "bulky" "enormous" etc.
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Old 2011-09-05, 11:31   Link #24179
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The character Ushiromiya Lion in Umineko is purely fictional? That is, it is the product of the author's narrative? Or rather it exists in a miraculous Kakera?

It was not clear to me.
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Old 2011-09-05, 11:44   Link #24180
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
The character Ushiromiya Lion in Umineko is purely fictional? That is, it is the product of the author's narrative? Or rather it exists in a miraculous Kakera?

It was not clear to me.
Yes, he is purely fictional, you could say that all of EP7 was just someone's answer to the incident.
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