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Old 2011-09-05, 12:22   Link #1001
Keroko
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The krogan would still be thriving if their culture didn't revolve around kill or be killed.

Of course, as Grunt showed us, the krogan aggression is also in a good part biological.
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Old 2011-09-05, 12:49   Link #1002
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The krogan would still be thriving if their culture didn't revolve around kill or be killed.

Of course, as Grunt showed us, the krogan aggression is also in a good part biological.
The problem is when killing leads to being killed. Which was the downward spiral that lead to the genophage. Their instincts drove them to pick the wrong battles.

We know that the Krogan nearly wiped themselves out after inventing nuclear weapons. So it is beyond doubt that their species has issues. However, the fact is they ARE a sentience species, and as such is fully capable of taking control of their own instincts like the rest of us. It is up to them if they want to, essentially, grow up as a race.
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:01   Link #1003
Keroko
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Humanity hasn't nearly grown as much out of its instincts as we'd like to think. We still fight for territory and resources to this very day, for example. In most cases the battlefield has changed, but in others... the only thing that changed is the tools we employ.
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:06   Link #1004
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Humanity hasn't nearly grown as much out of its instincts as we'd like to think. We still fight for territory and resources to this very day, for example. In most cases the battlefield has changed, but in others... the only thing that changed is the tools we employ.
See, the difference is that we haven't managed to cause a Nuclear Winter yet despite having the capacity to do so.

I am not suggesting that humans are saints, but that Krogans had even less self restraint than we do.

Seriously, many of the Krogan are still planning for war if and when they get rid of the Genophage. They don't understand why they got stuck with it to begin with.
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:32   Link #1005
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They don't understand why they got stuck with it to begin with.
They don't understand because they still exist solely on an instinctual level and they were never allowed to evolve to the point where they didn't exist solely on that instinctual level. Unlike many other races that attained spaceflight and eventual interstellar travel through hard work, dedication, and some amount of interspecies unity (and handy mass effect devices conveniently located not too far from home ), the Krogan were literally taken from their destroyed home (by the Salarians) and bred to fight the Rachni ( Is it any wonder they failed so spectacularly as an intergalactic species?). Consequently, they had no chance to actively evolve out of their animalistic ways (they also weren't given a chance to simply die off), nor were they given a chance to even learn how to work within a galactic society.

Last edited by james0246; 2011-09-05 at 14:47.
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:58   Link #1006
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They don't understand because they still exist solely on an instinctual level and they were never allowed to evolve to the point where they didn't exist solely on that instinctual level. Unlike many other races that attained spaceflight and eventual interstellar travel through hard work, dedication, and some amount of interspecies unity (and handy mass effect devices conveniently located not too far from home ), the Krogan were literally taken from their destroyed home (by the Salarians) and bred to fight the Rachni ( Is it any wonder they failed so spectacularly as an intergalactic species?). Consequently, they had no chance to actively evolve out of their animalistic ways (they also weren't given a chance to simply die off), nor were they given a chance to even learn how to work within a galactic society.
Well, the thing is they were given the usual privileges as the heroes of the Rachni wars. And I am sure the Krogans appreciate being given new planets to settle by the Council. The fact that they threw it all away may be due to their instincts, but that didn't change the fact that they abused the trust others gave them.

Saying it is their instincts isn't a defense. Indeed, it damns them. Something like the genophage is essentially pest control, something you release to cull numbers of wild animals. Genophage would no longer be necessary if and when Krogans use the sentient brain they were gifted instead of their animal past.

I mean, the Krogans invented nukes all on their own. They are not physically as stupid as their past historical actions might have suggested. They can control their instincts like the rest of us.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:30   Link #1007
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
See, the difference is that we haven't managed to cause a Nuclear Winter yet despite having the capacity to do so.

I am not suggesting that humans are saints, but that Krogans had even less self restraint than we do.

Seriously, many of the Krogan are still planning for war if and when they get rid of the Genophage. They don't understand why they got stuck with it to begin with.
Yeah, we haven't caused a nuclear winter. But we're also not a species inherently aggressive by nature. We are, however, very territorial and adaptable by nature. And that's something you see reflected in the humanity in Mass Effect down to a T. To the point where it downright scares the other races.

This isn't some drug addiction we're talking here, krogans are aggressive by nature. It's simply something encoded in their DNA. Could they get rid of it? Probably, but its not nearly as easy as you make it sound. It'd take centuries of evolution or gene-splicing to do so. And in either case, it'd take voluntary action too.

Unless they build some sort of pacifism genophage or something.

Now don't get me wrong, "it's in their nature" is no excuse to let the krogans run rampant. Indeed, in my eyes the genophage was understandable especially because of that. Krogan aggression combined with their high rate of birth means they were a threat to the galaxy as bad as the rachni. One of these two had to be addressed, and the later proved to be the easiest for external forces to do so.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:44   Link #1008
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
This isn't some drug addiction we're talking here, krogans are aggressive by nature. It's simply something encoded in their DNA. Could they get rid of it? Probably, but its not nearly as easy as you make it sound. It'd take centuries of evolution or gene-splicing to do so. And in either case, it'd take voluntary action too.
Oh, I wouldn't go that far. Even I am not prepared to genetically modify the Krogan race that way. I believe the Krogans, despite appearances, are capable of more intelligence than they themselves like to admit. They merely need to manage and channel their aggression on things that wouldn't threaten their own existence.

A little aggression is good. It all depending on when and where you use it. The Krogans just have to be convinced that just because they want to be aggressive doesn't mean they should do something stupid. They were the most intelligent creatures in their home planet, that counted for something.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:47   Link #1009
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Remember the poet krogan with the asari girlfriend?

They're not all hopeless. Talk to Wrex in ME1 a lot, and you'll really understand where their fatalism comes from, especially if you do not end up killing him on Virmire.

The krogan aren't half as bad as the yahg. They're aggressive, violent, destructive and they know it. And like it that way.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:00   Link #1010
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yeah, we haven't caused a nuclear winter. But we're also not a species inherently aggressive by nature. We are, however, very territorial and adaptable by nature. And that's something you see reflected in the humanity in Mass Effect down to a T. To the point where it downright scares the other races.

This isn't some drug addiction we're talking here, krogans are aggressive by nature. It's simply something encoded in their DNA. Could they get rid of it? Probably, but its not nearly as easy as you make it sound. It'd take centuries of evolution or gene-splicing to do so. And in either case, it'd take voluntary action too.

Unless they build some sort of pacifism genophage or something.

Now don't get me wrong, "it's in their nature" is no excuse to let the krogans run rampant. Indeed, in my eyes the genophage was understandable especially because of that. Krogan aggression combined with their high rate of birth means they were a threat to the galaxy as bad as the rachni. One of these two had to be addressed, and the later proved to be the easiest for external forces to do so.
The thing is as others have pointed out is that the Krogan were wrongfully given space technology. This is a species that lives for war and you can't change that. As a result they nearly destroyed their entire world and had to rebuild it from scratch. Given time they may have been able to come to an understanding and work together rather than kill each other. It's taken how many wars for humanity to fight in order for us to maintain peace like this?

Then you give these war species space faring technology when they aren't even ready for it. As a result their instincts take over and next thing you know they want to wage war against everything that moves.
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Old 2011-09-05, 21:36   Link #1011
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The thing is as others have pointed out is that the Krogan were wrongfully given space technology. This is a species that lives for war and you can't change that. As a result they nearly destroyed their entire world and had to rebuild it from scratch. Given time they may have been able to come to an understanding and work together rather than kill each other. It's taken how many wars for humanity to fight in order for us to maintain peace like this?

Then you give these war species space faring technology when they aren't even ready for it. As a result their instincts take over and next thing you know they want to wage war against everything that moves.
There is no point arguing about if Krogans should be given spaceship tech or not, because they already know enough to build their own ships by now and as such, can't be undone. This doesn't have anything to do with the current problem, which is how to incorporate them into modern society.

My Shepard would be willing to give the Krogans one more chance. Just one, mind you; after that there is nothing but oblivion for them.

So do you think the Krogans can use their brains to suppress their animal instincts or not? Because if they can't at all then they will never be an equal in society with everyone else and stay under the genophage. But if they can, but won't, then they would have dug their own graves.
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Old 2011-09-05, 22:58   Link #1012
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I don't think so. Even then it would take generations or centuries to probably even do it.

Unless of course a specific/certain Krogan were to arise from their ranks and unite them all under his name and control them to the point of reining in their instincts then maybe.

Other option is to keep their population low and continue to have them mingle with the other galactic civilizations like to get them to simmer down and enjoy other things in life.
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Old 2011-09-06, 00:54   Link #1013
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I don't think so. Even then it would take generations or centuries to probably even do it.

Unless of course a specific/certain Krogan were to arise from their ranks and unite them all under his name and control them to the point of reining in their instincts then maybe.

Other option is to keep their population low and continue to have them mingle with the other galactic civilizations like to get them to simmer down and enjoy other things in life.
The thing is, Krogans are intelligent creatures. They DO have control over their instincts, or they would never have split the atom on their own. The Krogan only seem like primitive savages by comparison with other races, when in actuality they are not animals.

Even the mercenaries running around is proof that Krogans can be organised. Krogans can take orders, respect their leaders, and make decisions that matter. They are not Varren... And even Varren could be tamed.
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Old 2011-09-06, 02:23   Link #1014
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Oh, I wouldn't go that far. Even I am not prepared to genetically modify the Krogan race that way. I believe the Krogans, despite appearances, are capable of more intelligence than they themselves like to admit. They merely need to manage and channel their aggression on things that wouldn't threaten their own existence.
Man. Now I'm thinking that a "pacifism genophage" would make for an amazing option in ME3. It's obviously well-intentioned like the original, but at least as twisted and disturbing if you think about it.
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Old 2011-09-06, 02:48   Link #1015
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Man. Now I'm thinking that a "pacifism genophage" would make for an amazing option in ME3. It's obviously well-intentioned like the original, but at least as twisted and disturbing if you think about it.
Do you know why it is disturbing? Because that's what the REAPERS do!

The Keepers are an alien race modified to be organic robots for an eternity. And the same with the Collectors. To biologically modify the Krogans to our preferences would make us no better than the very enemies we are fighting.

Look at it this way, my Paragon Shepard have got the Rachni on his side. If the Krogans don't behave themselves we would get a reverse-Rachni war. But the rest is for the Krogans to decide. If they want a war they can't win, that's what they will get.
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Old 2011-09-06, 04:21   Link #1016
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Genophage isn't that bad its just that the krogan aren't used to it yet, all it does it quell their numbers to a more manageable level like birth control its just when you are used to having 8 babies then your numbers get cut down to 2 or 3 if you're lucky then it seems like such a massive blow. Especially to the krogan who need to mass reproduce to replace all the ones that get killed in action, I mean look at Wrex because of their numbers they are finding the need to unify and share instead of keeping their tribal instincts.
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Old 2011-09-06, 05:21   Link #1017
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Genophage isn't that bad its just that the krogan aren't used to it yet, all it does it quell their numbers to a more manageable level like birth control its just when you are used to having 8 babies then your numbers get cut down to 2 or 3 if you're lucky then it seems like such a massive blow. Especially to the krogan who need to mass reproduce to replace all the ones that get killed in action, I mean look at Wrex because of their numbers they are finding the need to unify and share instead of keeping their tribal instincts.
Genophage isn't that bad, but "pacifism" genophage IS. Because what can you call something that alters the minds of an entire race forcefully, anything but "Indoctrination"?

Anyway, yeah, the Krogans are not being driven to extinction at all. None the less the very fact that genophage exists does make them 2nd class citizens. For good reason, yes, and almost justified. But this just can't go on long term. Krogans can't advance as long as they are persecuted and feel they have no friends anywhere. Hence I believe the race deserves one final chance at deciding what they want to do with themselves.
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Old 2011-09-06, 08:09   Link #1018
Keroko
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So do you think the Krogans can use their brains to suppress their animal instincts or not? Because if they can't at all then they will never be an equal in society with everyone else and stay under the genophage. But if they can, but won't, then they would have dug their own graves.
Supress? No. Channel? Maybe.

I say maybe because channeling requires something to channel into. And I'm not yet sure what that something can be when looking at the long run.
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Genophage isn't that bad, but "pacifism" genophage IS.
You tell a woman who wants to be a mother that your plague randomly picked her to be infertile for life and then come back and tell me the genophage isn't that bad.

The genophage is incredibly murky ground. Even Mordin himself calls the genophage only necessary at best.

I agree though that a pacifism plague would be no better. It's like the heretic Geth base all over again.
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Old 2011-09-06, 09:37   Link #1019
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Supress? No. Channel? Maybe.

I say maybe because channeling requires something to channel into. And I'm not yet sure what that something can be when looking at the long run.

You tell a woman who wants to be a mother that your plague randomly picked her to be infertile for life and then come back and tell me the genophage isn't that bad.

The genophage is incredibly murky ground. Even Mordin himself calls the genophage only necessary at best.

I agree though that a pacifism plague would be no better. It's like the heretic Geth base all over again.
Genophage is forced birth control. Very obviously unethical, but then so is shooting someone in the head which Krogans have no problems with.

Pacifism plague is worse because you are actually messing with their minds. At least with the genophage those involved could rebel against it. While any mind-altering genetic mutation can also potentially remove the ability to object to it.

As for the heretic geth base... Grey area. Though since they are active enemy combatants certain things are more excusable. I mean, if Legion can't decide which path is better then it can't be THAT evil.
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Old 2011-09-06, 09:44   Link #1020
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Then again, as purely mathematical beings one assumes Legion and the Geth do not operate under any pretense of good or evil.
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