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Old 2011-09-05, 11:58   Link #24181
Dirty_Harry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Yes, he is purely fictional, you could say that all of EP7 was just someone's answer to the incident.
So who wrote the EP 7? Ange (1998) and the Lion are on the same story. Who introduced the character Ange in the story? To do so would have to be someone who knows Ange from the future.
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Old 2011-09-05, 12:19   Link #24182
Jan-Poo
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Tea parties are definitely not included in the messages and the forgeries.

As to what EP7 truly is in the real world, it's hard to tell. But following the logic so far, it must be some kind of fictional story.
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Old 2011-09-05, 12:23   Link #24183
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Tea parties are definitely not included in the messages and the forgeries.

As to what EP7 truly is in the real world, it's hard to tell. But following the logic so far, it must be some kind of fictional story.
It's one interperitation.
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Old 2011-09-05, 12:38   Link #24184
Dirty_Harry
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If the Tea Parties are not included in the messages in bottles or forgeries, then what they really are? Characters like Bernkastel, Lambadelta, Ange from the future, Lion appear in them. I still find odd how a fictional character as Lion find Ange (which is real) in a story that was never written by anyone in the real world.

Unless that Ange is also fictional (from Tea Party EP 7), but then had to explain who wrote the Tea Party, and would have to be someone who knows from Ange the future.
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Old 2011-09-05, 13:48   Link #24185
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
If the Tea Parties are not included in the messages in bottles or forgeries, then what they really are? Characters like Bernkastel, Lambadelta, Ange from the future, Lion appear in them. I still find odd how a fictional character as Lion find Ange (which is real) in a story that was never written by anyone in the real world.

Unless that Ange is also fictional (from Tea Party EP 7), but then had to explain who wrote the Tea Party, and would have to be someone who knows from Ange the future.
Exactly what they are isn't clear, but it seems pretty obvious the Tea Parties of at least 1-4 (as opposed to, say, Chiru) are definitely not contained inside fictions. They may be Meta-World narrative though (and this is strong evidence that the meta-narrative is not within the fictions, although the "magic" narrative may be).
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:22   Link #24186
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The meaning of that is therefore: "I've seen the messages, it was a lot of writing, so I don't really think they were done in one day during the serial murder (as the story wants to make us believe by claiming it was written by Ushiromiya Maria)"
Bah. I know we've talked about this before, but doesn't this mean that the writer wrote them after the incident? With 1986 weather forecasting technology, there was at best about 3 days in advance that the writer would know about the typhoon. And only 1 day unless they somehow knew of Ange's last minute absence in advance.

But episode 4 also tells us that "Beatrice" from Maria's diary has the same handwriting as "Ushinomiya Maria". So. Who wrote the bottle-fictions?

Easiest answer: Battler did. Episode 4 1998 was written fiction, and Beatrice's handwriting in Maria's diary was made up by Touya. Why? To make it look like Beatrice was the culprit. And the only person who could reject such a fiction would be Ange herself, who had gone missing.

It's just wild speculation, but... thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
The character Ushiromiya Lion in Umineko is purely fictional? That is, it is the product of the author's narrative? Or rather it exists in a miraculous Kakera?

It was not clear to me.
Mystery/Author angle: Lion is purely fictional.
Fantasy/Meta angle: Lion is a real person from another Kakera.

Take your pick. Although most of the time discussion on this board is in the context of the mystery/author angle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
If the Tea Parties are not included in the messages in bottles or forgeries, then what they really are? Characters like Bernkastel, Lambadelta, Ange from the future, Lion appear in them. I still find odd how a fictional character as Lion find Ange (which is real) in a story that was never written by anyone in the real world.

Unless that Ange is also fictional (from Tea Party EP 7), but then had to explain who wrote the Tea Party, and would have to be someone who knows from Ange the future.
Well, you're getting into questions that we've been discussing for months, with no agreed upon consensus.

But, well, here's some of my opinions:

The Ange that met Lion is a metaphorical representation in some way, not the "real" Ange. The only possible connection that the "real" Ange might have with Lion is that maybe she read about him somewhere (but whether he was even fictionalized through actual writing at all is debatable). So what we see of their interactions could just be metaphorical for what's going on in Touya's head or Ange's head. Or it could just be an arbitrary "what if" not founded on any "real" person's viewpoint (in other words, it's just something Ryuukishi showed us).

The episode 7 Tea Party could have been written by anyone, because by episode 7 there's enough knowledge available to the public to do so; or it may have been written by no one, and was just a frightening idea Ange/Touya thought about on their own. In any case, I think the episode 7 Tea Party wasn't a fictional forgery per se, but an actual theory developed as evidence surfaced in the real world.
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:54   Link #24187
Dirty_Harry
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Well, you're getting into questions that we've been discussing for months, with no agreed upon consensus.
I finished EP 8 yesterday, then I have not read the whole thread. I'm reading now.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:06   Link #24188
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The way I see it, episode 7 could be theoretically interpreted as a random witch hunter visiting Yasu on her death bed to go "I understand it all" until she dies, then goes up to Toya's house to stop the forgeries since he feels they are disrespectful to the dead and that they would keep digging despite the dead's wishes, but just as about as he was going to explain why they shouldn't make forgeries anymore Hachijo's cat jumped on his face and made him hit his head really hard.

...Okay that makes absolutely no sense. I think episode 7 is just one of those "don't think too much about it, you'll get a headache" things.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:07   Link #24189
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I agree that the meta-narratives of Tea Parties are not in fiction. Other meta-narratives are also not in fiction as in EP 6 Ange and Featherine, Bernkastel and Angie on the rooftop, Ange and Lion in the theater and so on.

With that in mind I list the three types of narratives in Umineko.

1 - Fictions written by Yasu/Beatrice or Toya/Hachijo
2 - Events in the real world outside Rokkenjima, as the stories of Ange in 1998.
3 - And these meta-narratives that are not in fiction, as mentioned above.

And the strange thing is that these meta-narratives (type 3) using characters who were apparently created in fiction (as Lambdadelta and Bernkastel) and some of the real world (as Ange). Bernkastel and Ange meeting on the rooftop is emblematic. It may Angie's delusion, but a delusion of a character (Bernkastel) that her brother created in fiction and she has not even read.

There are two possibilities. All these meta-narratives that are not in the fictions, are inventions of the R07 to help explain the mystery or exist in a "real" meta-world

In both cases means that the fictions only can not explain the mystery of Rokkenjima Prime. We readers need something besides the fiction (messages on bottles or forgeries in Umineko) to explain the mystery. And this is the meta-narrative.
This may be deliberate or not. This causes me a headache.
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Old 2011-09-05, 15:30   Link #24190
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Bah. I know we've talked about this before, but doesn't this mean that the writer wrote them after the incident? With 1986 weather forecasting technology, there was at best about 3 days in advance that the writer would know about the typhoon. And only 1 day unless they somehow knew of Ange's last minute absence in advance.

But episode 4 also tells us that "Beatrice" from Maria's diary has the same handwriting as "Ushinomiya Maria". So. Who wrote the bottle-fictions?

Easiest answer: Battler did. Episode 4 1998 was written fiction, and Beatrice's handwriting in Maria's diary was made up by Touya. Why? To make it look like Beatrice was the culprit. And the only person who could reject such a fiction would be Ange herself, who had gone missing.

It's just wild speculation, but... thoughts?
I've been talking about this a lot with Renall and we really have different opinions on that but I'm adamant in thinking that they have been written before.

1) In the first place it was said that the police found the first bottle very soon after the incident.
2) the writing style is the same found in Maria's diary AND the letters whom are sure to have been sent before the incident. Maria isn't supposed to have met Battler in years. Additionally Ange was given the diary directly from the police. No one except Beatrice is supposed to have been in possession of enough money to spare for those bank accounts.
3) It was said that investigations were made as to check if the handwriting was that of Maria and it was confirmed it wasn't. It isn't reasonable to think they didn't check the handwriting of all the rest of the family while they were at it. And more importantly Ange could have recognized her brother's handwriting. This could be explained with Tohya having suffered brain damage therefore becoming a different person, except read point 2.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:33   Link #24191
Lenyo
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Yo, everyone. I know I'm late to the discussion, but I still feel the need to respond as I've recently acquired the 07th Expansion fever again. Before I jump into any debate and such, I want to ask a question (pointed at anyone who will answer.)

How, exactly, should one treat the meta-world? If certain games (the Rokkenjima gameboards in episodes 3-6) are in fact, fiction within fiction, what becomes of the already symbolic fiction that is the meta-world? Are we supposed to merely assume that it's there because it's there? That's it's the collection of all the minds or thoughts surrounding the games and everything is just symbolic?

Or do we just accept that there IS a magical meta-world and then there's a real world, in which everything actually happens.

I apologize if my post made little sense. I just really have trouble understanding the meta-world as of yet (I've yet to read the second half of episode 8, so I may just be stupid and not know that the entire meta-world is explained in that second half.)

Thank you to anyone who explains this.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:35   Link #24192
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Sorry I think I should have given a bit more of context.

That was said by Professor Ootsuki talking to Ange about the messages he has seen personally.

The meaning of that is therefore: "I've seen the messages, it was a lot of writing, so I don't really think they were done in one day during the serial murder (as the story wants to make us believe by claiming it was written by Ushiromiya Maria)"

anyway the original japanese word is: "膨大" which can be translated as "huge" "bulky" "enormous" etc.
Oh, okay. In a fashion it makes sense that Yasu wanted the message to look as close as possible to a mystery tale... Though it seems hard it could be as big as Umineko she probably wrote quite a bit and not just some notes...
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:39   Link #24193
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
If the Tea Parties are not included in the messages in bottles or forgeries, then what they really are? Characters like Bernkastel, Lambadelta, Ange from the future, Lion appear in them. I still find odd how a fictional character as Lion find Ange (which is real) in a story that was never written by anyone in the real world.

Unless that Ange is also fictional (from Tea Party EP 7), but then had to explain who wrote the Tea Party, and would have to be someone who knows from Ange the future.

Umineko doesn't give a clear answer. My interpreation is that tea party, magic scenes and meta characters are creations of Toya's mind or personifications of rules and ideas (Ryukishi said Dlanor is merely the personification of the Knox decalogue) but that's just me. There's who think different.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:42   Link #24194
Dirty_Harry
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Originally Posted by Lenyo View Post
Yo, everyone. I know I'm late to the discussion, but I still feel the need to respond as I've recently acquired the 07th Expansion fever again. Before I jump into any debate and such, I want to ask a question (pointed at anyone who will answer.)

How, exactly, should one treat the meta-world? If certain games (the Rokkenjima gameboards in episodes 3-6) are in fact, fiction within fiction, what becomes of the already symbolic fiction that is the meta-world? Are we supposed to merely assume that it's there because it's there? That's it's the collection of all the minds or thoughts surrounding the games and everything is just symbolic?

Or do we just accept that there IS a magical meta-world and then there's a real world, in which everything actually happens.

I apologize if my post made little sense. I just really have trouble understanding the meta-world as of yet (I've yet to read the second half of episode 8, so I may just be stupid and not know that the entire meta-world is explained in that second half.)

Thank you to anyone who explains this.
Read my posts above.

I think there is no definitive answer.

I personally think that R07 has failed in this.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:44   Link #24195
Dirty_Harry
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Umineko doesn't give a clear answer. My interpreation is that tea party, magic scenes and meta characters are creations of Toya's mind or personifications of rules and ideas (Ryukishi said Dlanor is merely the personification of the Knox decalogue) but that's just me. There's who think different.
I had this idea before, but this does not explain the scene on the rooftop of Ange and Bernkastel.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:45   Link #24196
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Originally Posted by Lenyo View Post
How, exactly, should one treat the meta-world? If certain games (the Rokkenjima gameboards in episodes 3-6) are in fact, fiction within fiction, what becomes of the already symbolic fiction that is the meta-world? Are we supposed to merely assume that it's there because it's there? That's it's the collection of all the minds or thoughts surrounding the games and everything is just symbolic?

Or do we just accept that there IS a magical meta-world and then there's a real world, in which everything actually happens.
The answer to your question is really up to you. The Meta can be interpreted in many valid ways, given the story hinted at too many things about it. So, no one can give you a concrete answer but their own interpretations.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:48   Link #24197
Jan-Poo
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The problem is that Ryuukishi jumps from a symbolic intepretation to another without notice. See fot example the Chiester: they are guns, they are ceramic bunnies, they are computers...

There doesn't seem to be any logic connection between the three things, they just happen to be associated to all of them.
This "jumping around" behaviour can be also noted in his narration, when the narrator is at one time Battler, and then a 3rd party person, and then Jessica... and so on. All of this in a seamless manner, without any notice.

I think the metaworld could be even a dozen of different things...
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:48   Link #24198
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Thank you for your answers, and while it may be lame how Ryukishi kinda left it dangling...
I'd much rather he left that up to interpretation than leave what actually happened on Rokkenjima up to interpretation (for a portion of what actually happened.)

Jan-Poo: Maria always armed her toy rabbits with toy guns and bought them all mini-barbie computers. That is totally how it works. Any other explanation would just be silly.
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Old 2011-09-05, 16:51   Link #24199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The Ange that met Lion is a metaphorical representation in some way, not the "real" Ange. The only possible connection that the "real" Ange might have with Lion is that maybe she read about him somewhere (but whether he was even fictionalized through actual writing at all is debatable). So what we see of their interactions could just be metaphorical for what's going on in Touya's head or Ange's head. Or it could just be an arbitrary "what if" not founded on any "real" person's viewpoint (in other words, it's just something Ryuukishi showed us).
Just to add my theory to the mix:

As we learned in EP8 Ange was confronted by many people, even her classmates, with the theory that her parents were the murderers.
The voice which pushed Ange towards refusing to live in peace with Eva and made her seek out the truth around the Rokkenjima incident was personified as Bernkastel, but basically it's quite probable that it was the part of mass media and public opinion that was interested in just dragging the cruel truth of those 2 days out into sunlight.
Add to that the fact with what Ange is greeted in the theater in the EP7 Tea Party:
???: あの日に何があったかって?教えてなんてあげないわ。ヘソでも噛んで死んじゃえばぁ?!('W hat happened on that day', eh? I will never tell you even a bit. How about eating your guts out and dying?!)
Lion: ・・・この声は・・・?(...that voice...?)
Ange: あのババアよ。絵羽叔母さんの声だわ。(It's that hag. It's aunt Eva's voice.)

I think it's quite reasonable to assume that this is what happened on those two days in 1986 from Eva's perspective...that it's actually the same truth that is in Eva's diary. It's just presented through someone who is ot interested in a sensible, emotional ending...just in drawing the most cruel solution out of those events. This has always been presented through Bernkastel, but would also be fitting for many witch hunters...because let's admit it, many of us here are very much the same.

So I'd assume that this is just a metaphorical scene that leads up to the metaphorical meeting between young Ange and BATTLER in the meta-chapel. She is devastated after people around her have confronted her with the "Rudolph/Kyrie culprit theory" and so she reverts back to a little girl who wants nothing more than her big brother to comfort her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1) In the first place it was said that the police found the first bottle very soon after the incident.
2) the writing style is the same found in Maria's diary AND the letters whom are sure to have been sent before the incident.
Exactly. And, just to add to this before it breaks into a wild discussion again, it was actually said that the police did several checks on the letters and the bottles including how they were sealed and it was said that the bottle they found shortly after the incident had been sealed a while but not longer than a few days before the incident.
So like I said before, unless anybody wants to include random police conspiracy X into the already pretty confusing mix, I think it's pretty safe to ditch the "message bottles were written post-incident" theory.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:07   Link #24200
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Bah. I know we've talked about this before, but doesn't this mean that the writer wrote them after the incident? With 1986 weather forecasting technology, there was at best about 3 days in advance that the writer would know about the typhoon. And only 1 day unless they somehow knew of Ange's last minute absence in advance.
Ep 4 says:

Quote:
Later on, it was confirmed that a similar message bottle had been recovered from the nearby ocean on the day of the accident by the police in their search for lost articles, and this caused a sensation.
"It seems that, due to evidence from the surrounding area and the fact that the bottle was sealed, the police had decided that its likelihood of being a fabrication was low, and that it had been abandoned within several days before the accident. And the handwriting for both matched. This caused the credibility of the scraps of paper discovered by the fisherman to rise.
So the police with its scientifical means affirmed the message was written prior to the incident.
I've no idea how Yasu guessed the weather. Maybe that's a typical weather for that place so more than a guess it was a 'there's more tahn 50% chances for this weather so I'll bet on it'. Maybe in the original tale the weather was mentioned only once or twice. and in such a way she could remove the pages mentioning the weather with others that would talk of another kindof weather should a typhon not happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But episode 4 also tells us that "Beatrice" from Maria's diary has the same handwriting as "Ushinomiya Maria". So. Who wrote the bottle-fictions?

Easiest answer: Battler did. Episode 4 1998 was written fiction, and Beatrice's handwriting in Maria's diary was made up by Touya. Why? To make it look like Beatrice was the culprit. And the only person who could reject such a fiction would be Ange herself, who had gone missing.

It's just wild speculation, but... thoughts?
I doubt Battler could have written the messages though I think Toya figured out that the messages were connected with Beatrice, whom Maria declared to be her friend.
So in his mind it was logic to assume that - Beatrice was Maria's friend - Maria played with Ange - Ange might have some memento of Maria and if her disappearance was due to the fact she was chasing the truth, she would use the memento Maria left her to connect the messages to Beatrice.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But, well, here's some of my opinions:

The Ange that met Lion is a metaphorical representation in some way, not the "real" Ange. The only possible connection that the "real" Ange might have with Lion is that maybe she read about him somewhere (but whether he was even fictionalized through actual writing at all is debatable). So what we see of their interactions could just be metaphorical for what's going on in Touya's head or Ange's head.
I've had the same idea.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The episode 7 Tea Party could have been written by anyone, because by episode 7 there's enough knowledge available to the public to do so; or it may have been written by no one, and was just a frightening idea Ange/Touya thought about on their own. In any case, I think the episode 7 Tea Party wasn't a fictional forgery per se, but an actual theory developed as evidence surfaced in the real world.
Same here, although I think that tea party was showed to us through Toya's eyes again, even if MetaBattler is not around and Piece Battler does surprisingly little.

To me Bern is Toya's creation so the fact she's here to me is a reference that again what we're seeing is something through Toya's eyes.
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