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Old 2011-09-04, 18:39   Link #101
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanzoman View Post
You may not agree with this, however I believe it is entirely possible to have an exciting, competitive fight without Naruto, indeed, some of the best fights of the manga didn't include him(and the same goes for Sauske).
It's obvious that side characters can have very interesting fights, but there has to be a balance, many readers probably felt that this war was going on for too many chapters without Naruto and Sasuke. Sure if Kishimoto made a chapter every day then it would not feel such a long time

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Originally Posted by Hanzoman View Post
instead I blame:
...
I mostly agree with the points, however in the defense of the author: it seems to me that he wanted to make something that is impossible, that is have most of the side characters, even those who are already dead, have their fights, have their story progressed and ended. And on top of that he wanted to show the whole alliance, all 5 ninja villages, every ninja that matters, and then as zombies introduce a lot of great ninjas from the past too. Sure he made mistakes, it was unavoidable with all these characters and stories connected into one big mess of a war. Considering all this i think the war until now is not that bad as it could have been
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Old 2011-09-05, 02:17   Link #102
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
You're SO right about wanting Naruto to grow up, but the point of this manga is, he is still growing up. Naruto is growing up little by little. Still, he's a teenager now (16, 17?), of course he's still a bit rash, inexperienced and psychologically immature. In reality, it's reasonable or even natural. That's why Itachi, who is a grown-up, lectured him. He's never been a leader of anything besides Konohamaru's group long ago . So, it's obvious that he lacks the traits of a leader. Thus, comparing him to Luffy is really not fair coz Luffy is a leader since the beginning. Their backgrounds are so different. As a main character, Naruto won't be like Kira Yamato, Gon Freecs, Amuro Ray or Lelouch who's smart and reached their psychological maturity at teen age. He's a slow learner with some good points. Maybe, people should learn to accept that or they should learn to avoid this manga.

I don't think Kishimoto hyped-up Akatsuki. He just portray them as what they are: dangerous ninjas with great abilities. We never met a lot of characters that hail them or cower in fear once they heard the 'Akatsuki' word. In fact, Akatsuki always have to deal with tough fights whenever they encounter enemies. They don't win easily. The one(s) that hype them up is probably the anime and some fans. If you want to know mangas which characters are hyped-up by their authors, try read Claymore, Samurai Deeper Kyo, Saint Seiya (original series) or Black Cat for example. That's where characters are being hyped up to the extreme and some even get a full narration or mentioned every time (by a character and whatnot) even before he/she/them appear.
yeah, he is still growing up but we are nearing the end of the series or at least it seems that way, and most of the fans are expecting a more mature naruto ready to take on the role of hokage. gaara is the same age as he is, went through the same torment as a child and yet he is somehow more mature than naruto. why is that? luffy is about the same age as naruto when one piece first started and no, he wasn't always the leader. he was a crybaby when he was younger and considerably weaker compared to his older brother ace who often took charge and protected him. he was often bullied, especially by his grandfather. he's not the sharpest tool in the shed either that's why i chose him as a basis of comparison for naruto. the two have more things in common than any of the shonen heroes. luffy's first attempt at being a leader was when he decided he was going to be a pirate and form his own pirate crew. but even then it was all trial and error for him. he was a pathetic captain, even now he still acts like a child who doesn't know what he's doing. but he and his crew slowly grew up as the series progressed, they grew stronger and became more capable individually and as a team.

i still don't see that kind of growth from naruto. at least not yet. even after all his power-ups and experiences he is still just a child. i was so disappointed when kishi decided to "resurrect" the likes of kakashi and tsunade. i was hoping that their "deaths" would somehow force naruto to grow up and become the leader he's supposed to be. without the grown ups he and the other youngsters would have to step up to the plate. but kishi didn't do that, rather he chose to have naruto be protected by the adults and hide him in a very long training arc only to have him escape and act like a messiah. it's not about age, it's about character development. i guess i'm just really disappointed with how things turned out and what kishi did to naruto's character.

the name akatsuki alone roused fear. they were so feared that not a lot of people knew who were the members of that elite group. kishi made them so seemingly invincible that the readers were wondering how anyone could possibly defeat them. i read claymore but i don't see the hype you're talking about because to me those women are really badass, they don't just pretend to be badass. it's not like they were hyped to be immortal monsters like hidan, kakuzu and sasori even though they're technically just human. the claymores are not really human anymore, they were experimented on and physically altered. they really are monsters who somehow retained some of their humanity.

Quote:
Name the side battles in this war Naruto has taken from his allies besides the ones this chapter. All I've seen him do is save some nameless fodder.
i meant the side battles that happened in this chapter, side battles that i felt he didn't need to interfere with. is gaara a nameless fodder? is oonoki an incapable ninja that he needed naruto's help? those two are kage level ninja. i was just hoping that after that itachi lecture he would move on and go after the ones who orchestrated the war. he didn't need to bother with the zombies that are actually pretty easy to get rid of. i mean, kishi could have shown more sasuke if he was so concerned about the sales.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2011-09-05 at 02:42.
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Old 2011-09-05, 07:49   Link #103
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
yeah, he is still growing up but we are nearing the end of the series or at least it seems that way, and most of the fans are expecting a more mature naruto ready to take on the role of hokage. gaara is the same age as he is, went through the same torment as a child and yet he is somehow more mature than naruto. why is that? luffy is about the same age as naruto when one piece first started and no, he wasn't always the leader. he was a crybaby when he was younger and considerably weaker compared to his older brother ace who often took charge and protected him. he was often bullied, especially by his grandfather. he's not the sharpest tool in the shed either that's why i chose him as a basis of comparison for naruto. the two have more things in common than any of the shonen heroes. luffy's first attempt at being a leader was when he decided he was going to be a pirate and form his own pirate crew. but even then it was all trial and error for him. he was a pathetic captain, even now he still acts like a child who doesn't know what he's doing. but he and his crew slowly grew up as the series progressed, they grew stronger and became more capable individually and as a team.

i read claymore but i don't see the hype you're talking about because to me those women are really badass, they don't just pretend to be badass. it's not like they were hyped to be immortal monsters like hidan, kakuzu and sasori even though they're technically just human. the claymores are not really human anymore, they were experimented on and physically altered. they really are monsters who somehow retained some of their humanity.
I did say Naruto is a slow learner with some good points right? So, there's no arguing there.

What I meant by Luffy being a leader from the beginning is when he decide to form his own pirate crew, of course not when he was born or when he was little. In fact, how long has it been since he became captain/leader? Surely long enough to dwarf Naruto's leadership experience.

Many characters in Claymore are hyped up by the author. For example, the single digits, the awakened beings, the four rulers, etc. First, they are highly hailed for their power only to be defeated single-handedly a few chapters later by some powered-up characters or by even more powerful characters (Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Claymore hater. In fact, I'm a fan of the manga's story. I'm just trying to be fair about how the characters are depicted). Kishimoto didn't do that in Naruto by making his characters stating occasionally that legendary heroes of the past are often exaggerated. Also, some of his characters who were badasses in the earlier chapters, are still badasses in later chapters (e.g. zombie Haku & Zabuza). Kishimoto also make the so called 'legendary ninjas' or 'badass ninjas' pretty humble people (e.g. the previous Hokages in their flashbacks). Almost none of the characters in Naruto are depicted as Godly. Pain, he has godly power and godly goals for sure, but he is shown as a normal person who had family and bittersweet memories. He also treasure his comrades. He still has feelings and flaws. Sage of the Six Paths, not much out of him. He is still very mysterious.

Sasori, Hidan, & Kakuzu ARE immortal. They can't die unless they are killed in a certain complex way. They can't die of old age. Isn't that what an immortal is? Heck, the immortals in Highlander are called immortals, yet they can be killed (by beheading) easier than those 3 immortal Akatsukis. Heck (again), Hidan is still alive even now, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
kishi made them so seemingly invincible that the readers were wondering how anyone could possibly defeat them.
It's not that 'they are invincible' but more like 'their techniques are so mysterious' so that defeating them without figuring out the nature of their techniques would be impossible. It's more about strategy, actually ^_^.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
the name akatsuki alone roused fear.
Yes, I agree, but not to the extent of making a lot of people cower in fear once hearing that name like what I meant in my previous post. In fact, the one that the alliance are making fuss about is not Akatsuki itself but the Moon-eye Plan of Madara.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
they were so feared that not a lot of people knew who were the members of that elite group.
I really don't know the correlation of this. Has it not cross your mind that not many people know Akatsuki member coz most of them are low profile? Secret is everything for ninjas anyway and working without attracting too much commotion is how they operate (especially for black-organization like Akatsuki), right? I think fear has nothing to do with it.
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2011-09-05 at 11:46.
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Old 2011-09-05, 09:51   Link #104
yakumo-chan
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I think it would have been much better if naruto was the one who give us lessons in life instead of Itachi. Because Naruto is the hero in this manga, we should learn more from him... instead he is being arrogant.

@ronin myael - you should stop comaparing Naruto to Luffy because it might start a flame thread, also this is a naruto thread
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Old 2011-09-05, 11:40   Link #105
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
I think it would have been much better if naruto was the one who give us lessons in life instead of Itachi. Because Naruto is the hero in this manga, we should learn more from him... instead he is being arrogant.
Believe me, I really understand your wish there . I too want Naruto to be smart and to act like an ideal hero, but maybe that’s not what he’s meant to be? Also, to be fair, not all main characters have to do the right/ideal thing for us to learn about their life. Yagami Light/Kira and Lelouch Lamperouge are good examples. Still, the Naruto saga isn’t over yet, we can still have high hopes for his character development.
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Old 2011-09-07, 00:17   Link #106
james0246
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Chapter 554 Discussion has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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