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View Poll Results: Steins;Gate - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 129 80.63%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 12.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 5.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 1.25%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.63%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-09-07, 14:16   Link #121
Kusa-San
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
. I'm just wondering if in terms of cosmic justice, there doesn't need to be some sort of material cost..
Cosmic justice ? Justice is something which was created by us human. There is no cosmic justice.
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Old 2011-09-07, 14:19   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Cosmic justice ? Justice is something which was created by us human. There is no cosmic justice.
Yes there is. It is called laws of conservation
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:01   Link #123
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does anyone have the new OP lyrics at hand?

summary of one thing that bugs me in the consistency in the story as we know it for now:

1. Okabe of the Future Time fools (one time is enough) Okabe of the Present Time to justify OFT existence without causing a worldline switch, thus the time machine (and S;G worldline theory) existence
2. OPrT fools Okabe Of the Past Time without causing a worldine switch, to preserve him texting the to-be-detected-by-SERN message, justifying the esistence in OPrT awareness of the SERN worldlines (and therefore, the attempt to save Kurisu, the guilt, and ultimately the existence of OFT (again).

rules 1 and 2 seem to be compatible, till now. OPrT derives from OPastT, OFT derives from the current OPrT .

Now. if OPrT actually saves Kurisu without Okabe of Past TIme being aware, and travels back to a "safe" point in the future, we have two Okabes - and two incompatible futures, if we believe that given a past and a fixed Okarin awareness, the resulting future is exactly one, if no worldline awareness shift happens.

Otherwise said: OPaT begets the NowObsolete Okabe of the Present Time that should have beget Okabe of the WW3 Future. This was consistent IFF OKabe of the WW3 Future doesn't try to push OPrT to secretly save Kurisu. If OPrT after saving Kurisu is aware to have succeeded. then OPrT CANNOT produce Okabe of the WW3 Future anymore, therefore saving Kurisu is not possible anymore. thus we have an inconsistency.

I think that this thing doesn't make sense without any of the following happens (or similarly conceived ideas):

"brain turned off" class:
i. "magic" finale: the two futures collapse in one where everyone's happy, nobody knows why.
ii. "deus ex machina" finale: same as above but justified by love/ pagan deity/attractor field unexplained effect

"brain half-turned on" class:

iii. Okabe after saving Kurisu believes to have failed, again, for N years; thus Okabe creates the time machine and loops back again and again and again and again to save her. this void the current awareness we are having about the eventsi, but indeed create a stable loop. maybe we are already seeing it and future Okabe is lying (no WW3 and stuff really happened).

iv. same as above, but he's aware of the success. together the two have a kid or two and a time machine, too. Kurisu is behind the camera in the white-noise video from the future (and she's smiling at the congroo thing).

v. initially unaware, then aware and continues as in iv.


"it shouldn't work" class, but actually may:
vi. Present or Past Okabe die shortly. If this happen, the event chain is broken and thus you saw a non-existing tale. Oops, it was an anime, anyway. But through fantasy, this could work in the sense of generating a timeline where Okabe sacrificed himself but Kurisu lives.


I just can't wrap around the "two Okabes, two Futures, but no worldline shift" idea. Something, some sudden plot turn, seems missing.


If one has to interpret the old OP lyrics, one would think about iii. or vi.


Me, I hope in v., for the best dramatic effect.
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:44   Link #124
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This is gonna be one very long week...
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Old 2011-09-07, 16:03   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
I think there will only be one other Okabe when he arrives a second time. Remember, he went back physically with Suzuha's time machine (as evidenced with him still having Kurisu's blood on his lab coat), as opposed to all the other time traveling he's done so far, where he only transfered his memories into an already existing body in an alternate timeline. So, I think his very existence in that specific time period will be erased by the time he redoes his trip again, leaving only Past Okabe and an alive Kurisu.
I don't think that works. Okabe meets Suzuha at some point in August at which point he travels physically back to July 28th and accidentally stabs Kurisu then returns to August. He then gets a d-mail from his future self which tells him to go back again and fool his past self. Now he's going to leave from a time that's ~15 minutes later and will arrive at the same time (July 28th shortly before noon). That time period already has 2 other Okabes. So we have Okabe 1 who was attending the conference and needs to see Kurisu lying in a pool of blood. We have Okabe 2 who arrived from August who needs to "stab" Kurisu, and we have Okabe 3 who is from ~15 minutes after the time Okabe 2 came from who needs to find a way to make sure Okabe 2 and Okabe 1 see the correct things while also not letting Kurisu die.

@wxyz

Do we know that there is no world line switch? I was thinking that the failed first attempt was only necessary to create enough despair in Okabe to cause him to figure out how he needs to get into Steins;Gate. Once he goes through that he discovers how to enter Steins Gate and sends the d-mail to his past self. Now at this point I think that the Okabe from 15 years in the future feels his reading steiner activate after sending the d-mail as that d-mail causes him to (presumably) jump from the WWIII timeline to the steins gate timeline. The reason for the trickery is to ensure that the d-mail gets sent. Once that d-mail is sent all bets are off.
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Old 2011-09-07, 19:05   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxyz View Post
I just can't wrap around the "two Okabes, two Futures, but no worldline shift" idea.
I was under the impression that 2025 Okabe was a result of the Beta timeline never changing after Kurisu's death, in that he either gave up or didn't react quickly enough and WWIII was ignited before he could do anything. He clearly states that saving Kurisu and destroying her paper will shift the world lines to the Steins Gate world line, which means the current 2025 Okabe would... well, not cease to exist, but exist in a different world line.
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Old 2011-09-07, 19:27   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Sefveron View Post
While were swapping screenshots,



Is that dated 2025?
Had to laugh at this email address, looks like it's short hand for Steins;Gate-El Pys Congoro @John Titor something (initially I thought 93 was short for 1993, the year he was born, but if he turned 18 in 2010 then he must've been born in 1992 instead).

Everyone else seems to have covered what I would've said except that I am fully in love with the music for this show now and I really love how they've been changing up the OP and ED for the past few episodes.
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Old 2011-09-07, 19:47   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Just playing devil's advocate here, but none of those people gave up anything they had before all the manipulation started. Ruka was already a boy, Feyris' father was already dead. Emotional anguish? Undeniable. I'm just wondering if in terms of cosmic justice, there doesn't need to be some sort of material cost.

Again, emotionally I'm rooting hard for a happy ending and I do think Okabe deserves it. I'm just conflicted on whether it makes sense from a poetic justice standpoint.

They didn't have it before the change but the thing is, it's things they all really wanted with their lives. Feyris with her father, Ruka with becoming a girl. They may not have had it before, but they got a chance to live it and then it was taken back again.

It's like this.

There's a delicious cake that you want to eat. It's impossible, but then someone gives you a taste of it. You'll want more of it as you enjoyed it, but then they take it away and then it's unreachable again. The effects on people emotionally would be horrible.
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Old 2011-09-07, 21:28   Link #129
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Originally Posted by j4c06 View Post
Some more questions:

How can this be that Kurisu in the Beta timeline thinks time travel is possible, and in the Alpha timeline she initially claims the opposite - when timeline forks into Alpha and Beta only on the day of the conference, when the first D-mail is sent.

By the way, please forgive my ignorance, but who did save Kurisu who is alive in the Alpha timeline? Was it SERN?
Okabe walks out of the radio building shocked from seeing Kurisu's corpse, he sends an message to Daru *reading steiner activates* , noones around and theres a satellite that has crashed into the radio building.

What saved kurisu was the fact that her fathers conference didnt happen because the building was closed off due to suzuha's time machine crashing into the building, simple as pie really.

As for getting back to the original Beta timeline, they deleted all data relating to Daru receiving messages relating to Kurisu being stabbed from the sern data base, which in turn prevented Sern from taking action against the Lab members and ultimately prevented Sern from ever creating a time Machine and giving them the power to create the big brother Dystopia future.

Just to add a bit more, in the Beta timeline, the people who first get ahold of the time travel data are Russia and not Sern, which ultimately ended up starting the arms race that results in WW3.
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Old 2011-09-07, 22:05   Link #130
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Kami episode, I reckon.

The best episode.
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Old 2011-09-07, 22:09   Link #131
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Originally Posted by j4c06 View Post
Some more questions:

How can this be that Kurisu in the Beta timeline thinks time travel is possible, and in the Alpha timeline she initially claims the opposite - when timeline forks into Alpha and Beta only on the day of the conference, when the first D-mail is sent.
The simple explanation is that different world lines can have different "history" and thus slightly altering a person's experiences. It's just simply that in the Beta world line Kurisu was destined to write that thesis of hers much earlier while in the Alpha one she doesn't discover the theories until she met Okabe and become a lab member.
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Old 2011-09-07, 22:33   Link #132
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Suzuha with her hair up is just

I lost some enthusiasm for SG in the second half and wasn't sure why, but after watching this episode I think I know. I missed the goofy, ridiculous, optimistic Okabe of the first half of the show. The end of this episode, where that Okabe returned, was fantastic. Can't wait for the finale.
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Old 2011-09-08, 00:46   Link #133
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Not really a spoiler ^^
Spoiler for from VN:

Also, I wanted to compare Daru from 23 episode and Daru from VN (again, not really a spoiler)
Spoiler for from VN:

and
Spoiler for Anime vs VN:

Last edited by Iby; 2011-09-08 at 00:58.
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Old 2011-09-08, 01:33   Link #134
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
The simple explanation is that different world lines can have different "history" and thus slightly altering a person's experiences. It's just simply that in the Beta world line Kurisu was destined to write that thesis of hers much earlier while in the Alpha one she doesn't discover the theories until she met Okabe and become a lab member.
Oh, but isn't it the same world line which gives both Alpha and Beta after the forking point? Where does different history come from?
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Old 2011-09-08, 01:49   Link #135
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Oh, but isn't it the same world line which gives both Alpha and Beta after the forking point? Where does different history come from?
Different history on a micro/individual level, but not on a macro/world level. There are things which are simply inconsequential which aren't fixed and/or affect by the Attraction Field because it isn't deemed important enough, and "how" one does things in most case falls under the "not affected" category. Here how Kurisu came to the discovery of time machine is inconsequential, rather the result that she was the one that invented it is. So you can also think of it as traveling between two points via different paths. The path taken might and can be different but what's important is the end result and not the path.
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Old 2011-09-08, 02:32   Link #136
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Different history on a micro/individual level, but not on a macro/world level. <...> So you can also think of it as traveling between two points via different paths. The path taken might and can be different but what's important is the end result and not the path.
But it is all in the past, relative to the forking point, so it has "already happened" by then, and it must be the very same Kurisu with the same history on a micro level, not her other version? The past can not be influenced unless some sort of time travel is involved, and before the D-mail day there was no time travel we know of. Am I wrong?
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Old 2011-09-08, 06:12   Link #137
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But it is all in the past, relative to the forking point, so it has "already happened" by then, and it must be the very same Kurisu with the same history on a micro level, not her other version? The past can not be influenced unless some sort of time travel is involved, and before the D-mail day there was no time travel we know of. Am I wrong?
No that's not how it works in the S;G universe. The "fork" is merely the point where one can enter another completely different world line, and when that happens some part of the past may change due to reconstruction/Attraction Field to make the least paradoxical outcomes to the world line. Some major events will be shared between the world lines and remain constant but nothing dictates that they must be exactly the same. Plus people don't remember this because they don't have a strong enough Reading Steiner to observe the change and thus their memories are also altered when the world lines changes. So it's perfectly reasonable that the Kurisu in Alpha line doesn't think time travel is possible and hasn't written her thesis while in the Beta line she had at the same reference point in time on their respective world line.

Also you can't think of time as past/present/future and that one leads chronically to other, that is only true to the observer at that particular instant (the quirks of Quantum Mechanics at work here).
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:22   Link #138
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Originally Posted by wxyz View Post
does anyone have the new OP lyrics at hand?
It's the second verse of the original full version, which has been out for a while.

Spoiler for Japanese lyrics:


Spoiler for A translation:


In addition, there were slight differences in some of the animation:

0:23 - Okabe's walking copies doubles back on itself,
0:28 - Then the turning of his head glitches.
1:04 - All the characters get a short focus during Kurisu's duplication.

Particularly the 1:04 change felt very powerful to me. Were there any changes that I missed?
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:55   Link #139
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Okay, another quote answering question about Kurisu from the standpoint of Okabe
Spoiler for from VN:
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Old 2011-09-08, 10:58   Link #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
The simple explanation is that different world lines can have different "history" and thus slightly altering a person's experiences. It's just simply that in the Beta world line Kurisu was destined to write that thesis of hers much earlier while in the Alpha one she doesn't discover the theories until she met Okabe and become a lab member.
Maybe because in the beta timeline, John Tilter appear in Us web for a while, and as far as I know, Kurisu live in US at that time and thus her interest in time travel.
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