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Old 2011-09-09, 09:19   Link #16341
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
They are playing on the fact that under watchful eyes of the international community, Israel won't dare to sink those ships.

Israel probably won't dare to sink those ships OVERTLY, but covertly, we don't know if they will bribe someone on-board to strap on a bulletproof vest and scuttle it.
I don't know; at least it would be less obvious than doing thing ''Rainbow Warrior'' style ...
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Old 2011-09-09, 09:27   Link #16342
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
I don't know; at least it would be less obvious than doing thing ''Rainbow Warrior'' style ...
The French are dumb enough to let their agents get caught. Even the agents responsible for the Dubai murder only ended up on CCTV and never got caught.

If French maids are as hot and popular back then, they could have used Anna Chapman-like agents for that mission; it would have been difficult to bust those firm-chested spies (pun unintended)
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Old 2011-09-09, 09:45   Link #16343
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If French maids are as hot and popular back then, they could have used Anna Chapman-like agents for that mission; it would have been difficult to bust those firm-chested spies (pun unintended)
Yeah, like such kind of agent wouldn't had caught the attention of most male on the port
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Old 2011-09-09, 09:47   Link #16344
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Yeah, like such kind of agent wouldn't had caught the attention of most male on the port
No, SaintessHeart has the right idea. The ability to pull off a sleight-of-hand relies on convincing any watchers to focus your gaze away from what you're doing with your hands, after all.

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Old 2011-09-09, 09:52   Link #16345
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
No, SaintessHeart has the right idea. The ability to pull off a sleight-of-hand relies on convincing any watchers to focus your gaze away from what you're doing with your hands, after all.

Dammit you saw through that double entendre.
What I meant by "firm-chested" is that the female spies are stout-hearted enough to pull a explosive operation like that, not to flash themselves and show off their "directional mines" you pervert (pun unintended too).
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Old 2011-09-09, 10:16   Link #16346
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Dammit you saw through that double entendre.
What I meant by "firm-chested" is that the female spies are stout-hearted enough to pull a explosive operation like that, not to flash themselves and show off their "directional mines" you pervert (pun unintended too).
Of course I didn't thought that of you...

BAck to be serious, Israel would look bad on any senario (if they do something or nothing) about thoses aid ships. The best thing for them would probably to send some costal guard ( one boat ) inspect thoses ships and tho find something very embarasing/illegal like narcotics, weapons, explosives etc... on a not so obvious place
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Old 2011-09-09, 10:25   Link #16347
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Of course I didn't thought that of you...

BAck to be serious, Israel would look bad on any senario (if they do something or nothing) about thoses aid ships. The best thing for them would probably to send some costal guard ( one boat ) inspect thoses ships and tho find something very embarasing/illegal like narcotics, weapons, explosives etc... on a not so obvious place
Simple. Check the laundry.

Most coast guard units don't dare to check in the laundry or boiler because it is damned oily and dirty - if your coast guard uniform is not navy blue or black, have fun washing it back home; your wife probably would beg you to quit your job.
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Old 2011-09-09, 10:55   Link #16348
Ithekro
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Soon as those boats and ships enter territorial waters the Turks have to legally back off...thus in the 12 miles zone, Israel can still enforce a legal blockade on Gaza. If they do not, it could be classified as an act of war...on Turkey's part....if I remember correctly. Especially if they open fire on Israeli ships within the zone.
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Old 2011-09-09, 12:25   Link #16349
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Soon as those boats and ships enter territorial waters the Turks have to legally back off...thus in the 12 miles zone, Israel can still enforce a legal blockade on Gaza. If they do not, it could be classified as an act of war...on Turkey's part....if I remember correctly. Especially if they open fire on Israeli ships within the zone.
Hmmm... wouldn't the Turks argue that it's palestinian territorial waters?
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Old 2011-09-09, 12:47   Link #16350
Haak
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Can someone give a map of territorial waters or something? I just assumed Isreali waters surrounded Palestinian waters...
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Old 2011-09-09, 13:08   Link #16351
Ithekro
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Until negotiatiosn are finished, Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters.
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Old 2011-09-09, 13:11   Link #16352
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Can someone give a map of territorial waters or something? I just assumed Isreali waters surrounded Palestinian waters...
Why would they? Territorial waters extend 12 nmi from the shore, given that Gaza is coastal, and israel does not own any island around it, Gaza would have waters bordering on egyptian and international waters. The turks can legally enter gazan waters so long as they have permission from gaza. There may also be laws that state a nation may protect it's own commercial ships if it feels they are in danger.

But anyway, what's Israel going to do about it? Turkey is stronger then them, and is a member of NATO, while Israel very definitely isn't. In any military dispute between the two, NATO would be forced to side with Turkey, or at a minimum do nothing. America cannot help Israel here.

Israel made a huge mistake when it pissed off Turkey, it's only remaining ally in the region.
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Old 2011-09-09, 13:29   Link #16353
Ithekro
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That is the thing...Gaza has no territorial waters as of yet. All ships and boats operating in those waters (including Palestinian fishing boats) do so under Israeli permits or permission.

Thus Turkey would be crossing into Israeli waters if they go within the 12 nautical mile territorial waters off Gaza...which happens to be the blockade zone as well.
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Old 2011-09-09, 13:45   Link #16354
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
That is the thing...Gaza has no territorial waters as of yet. All ships and boats operating in those waters (including Palestinian fishing boats) do so under Israeli permits or permission.

Thus Turkey would be crossing into Israeli waters if they go within the 12 nautical mile territorial waters off Gaza...which happens to be the blockade zone as well.
That is indeed so. But Turkey recognises Palestine as a state, and so it could easily say that is disagrees with Israel having control of another sovereign states waters. In the end such a legal dispute would have to go to the UN, which could easily side with Turkey, given how Palestine is now petitioning the UN for recognition.

And in the end, it doesn't matter what the legality of it is, from a practical perspective Israel has no means to counter Turkey. It's also a bit rich for Israel to be hiding behind international law now, given their history of disregarding it.
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Old 2011-09-09, 13:59   Link #16355
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
That is indeed so. But Turkey recognises Palestine as a state, and so it could easily say that is disagrees with Israel having control of another sovereign states waters. In the end such a legal dispute would have to go to the UN, which could easily side with Turkey, given how Palestine is now petitioning the UN for recognition.

And in the end, it doesn't matter what the legality of it is, from a practical perspective Israel has no means to counter Turkey. It's also a bit rich for Israel to be hiding behind international law now, given their history of disregarding it.
not a question of who's "water" it is.
Gaza is under blockade because its de-facto government is in an active state of war with Israel, and a navel blockade is a legitimate security measure in such a case (the U.N, by the way, agrees on this point).

Turkey, should they attempt to aid in breaching the blockade, would be taking part in a the war, and hence, their actions could be viewed as an act of aggression against Israel and hence subject to retaliation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
But anyway, what's Israel going to do about it? Turkey is stronger then them, and is a member of NATO, while Israel very definitely isn't. In any military dispute between the two, NATO would be forced to side with Turkey, or at a minimum do nothing. America cannot help Israel here.
based on what ?
the Israeli air force can eat the Turkish one for breakfast.

Quote:
Israel made a huge mistake when it pissed off Turkey, it's only remaining ally in the region
the flotila was an act of provocation on the part of Turkey.
just as the current dick waving its an act of provocation by Turkey.
not much of an ally then, is it.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:16   Link #16356
Ithekro
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Also any of that "aid" can go to an Israeli port and be trucked like 20 miles to Gaza. Or a rather larger distance to Egypt and also trucked into the "open" border with Egypt.

If this is about aid, there are plenty of ways to get things into the Gaza witout causing an international incident. If this isn't about aid, why not just say so and be done with it.

Well, there is that whole not wanting to go to war with Israel thing...not only because of the US alliance, but also because of the Israeli Air Force...the air force that more or less won them the last several wars by having clear air superiority. The new technology makes that even worse for someone wanting to fight Israel form all noted accounts.

Israel is not exactly on friendly terms with a lot of nations, nor is it liked by many for its policies. But it does earn respect to the point were the much larger countries (and their more distant supporting countries) really don't want to get into a shooting match with Israel. Because at least in terms of convential warfare using airpower...they were one of the best around. I don't know if time has dulled them or not, but that fear remains. Fear of the Israeli Air Force.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:17   Link #16357
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not a question of who's "water" it is.
Gaza is under blockade because its de-facto government is in an active state of war with Israel, and a navel blockade is a legitimate security measure in such a case (the U.N, by the way, agrees on this point).

Turkey, should they attempt to aid in breaching the blockade, would be taking part in a the war, and hence, their actions could be viewed as an act of aggression against Israel and hence subject to retaliation.
Turkey is acting to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression, or so it says.

Quote:
based on what ?
the Israeli air force can eat the Turkish one for breakfast.
Based on the fact that Turkey is part of the biggest military alliance in the world. Not only that, but Turkey's army is 5 times the size of Israel's, it's air force roughly the same size (and just as modern) and a navy that is far larger and more capable.

And it can count on the support of every other country surrounding Israel. Israel can deal with the backwards Arab states surrounding it, but it has never fought a modern state and army like Turkey. Turkey has by far the most large and capable army in the region.

And if Israel all out attacks, NATO will be forced to intervene on the side of Turkey. Bye Bye Israel.

Quote:
the flotila was an act of provocation on the part of Turkey.
just as the current dick waving its an act of provocation by Turkey.
not much of an ally then, is it.
Netanyahu has been engaging in blatant acts of provocation ever since he got elected. He has no friends left. Not even the US can help him against their own ally.

EDIT: @Ithekro The Israeli blockade places unrealistic restrictions on what can enter Gaza, for instance no cement can be shipped across, not only that but Aid only flows one way. There's no way for Gaza to engage in any meaningful form of commerce.

As for the Egyptian border, people can now cross it, but material still can not go across.

Economically Gaza is an absolutely pathetic state, largely due to the blockade that Israel has maintained against it.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-09-09 at 14:28.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:26   Link #16358
Ithekro
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And who in NATO will help Turkey if they start something in Israeli waters?

Israel likely won't go on the offensive into Turkey unless proked and that would likely only be the Air Force to remove the Turkish one from the equation.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:29   Link #16359
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Turkey is acting to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression, or so it says.
a military escort for a mission who's purpose is to breach a navel blockade turns it into a military action.
thats an act of war.

Quote:
Based on the fact that Turkey is part of the biggest military alliance in the world. Not only that, but Turkey's army is 5 times the size of Israel's, it's air force roughly the same size (and just as modern) and a navy that is far larger and more capable.

And it can count on the support of every other country surrounding Israel. Israel can deal with the backwards Arab states surrounding it, but it has never fought a modern state and army like Turkey. Turkey has by far the most large and capable army in the region.

And if Israel all out attacks, NATO will be forced to intervene on the side of Turkey. Bye Bye Israel.
1)NATO would not intervene on Turkey's behalf.
a fact that you are perfectly aware of.
2)the Turkish army is NOT 5 times larger then the Israeli one, its not even twice as large so i'm not sure where you got your data from.
3)the Turkish air force has around 200 F-16s while the Israeli air force has over 300 F-16 and around 80 additional F-15. most of them MORE modern then Turkey's because they get upgraded in Israel.
4)the Turkish navy's size doesn't matter if the conflict takes place within range of the Israeli air force (which it kinda has too).
5)Turkey, believe it or not, is surrounded by MORE enemies then Israel is, and doesn't have the "luxury" of being able to warn them that their attempt at intervening would result in a less then conventional retaliation.
6)the Arab armies Israel faced in its past wars were often BETTER equipped then Israel was, an on par with what Turkey has by modern standards.
7)NATO would not intervene on Turkey's behalf. (I'm aware that I said it once before, but its worth repeating).

Quote:
Netanyahu has been engaging in blatant acts of provocation ever since he got elected. He has no friends left. Not even the US can help him against their own ally.
Erdugan has been acting like a dick towards Israel for a LONG time before the Flotila thing.
which is on par with how poorly his relations with the REST of his neighborer have gone so far.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:31   Link #16360
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
And who in NATO will help Turkey if they start something in Israeli waters?

Israel likely won't go on the offensive into Turkey unless proked and that would likely only be the Air Force to remove the Turkish one from the equation.
They are not Israeli waters (according to turkey and other countries that recognise Palestine), if Turkey entered Palestinian waters, and Israel attacked, Nato would have to intervene on the side of Turkey, as Turkey would have just been attacked.

If Turkey initiated offensive action against Israel, no intervention would be required, but NATO members would not be able to intervene on the side of Israel either.

For the moment, Turkey has the initiative, and there's not much Israel can do.
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