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Old 2011-09-09, 14:33   Link #16361
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Turkey is acting to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression, or so it says.


Based on the fact that Turkey is part of the biggest military alliance in the world. Not only that, but Turkey's army is 5 times the size of Israel's, it's air force roughly the same size (and just as modern) and a navy that is far larger and more capable.

And it can count on the support of every other country surrounding Israel. Israel can deal with the backwards Arab states surrounding it, but it has never fought a modern state and army like Turkey. Turkey has by far the most large and capable army in the region.

And if Israel all out attacks, NATO will be forced to intervene on the side of Turkey. Bye Bye Israel.


Netanyahu has been engaging in blatant acts of provocation ever since he got elected. He has no friends left. Not even the US can help him against their own ally.
Then, again NATO can also forbid Turkey to breach the blockade. Just saying. NATO's member states cannot act completely on their own and then rely on NATO support if something goes wrong (except the USA maybe). I would be interested in the official NATO policy in that matter. Because I doubt many NATO partners will like the idea, that one of their allies provokes Israel in that matter.
At best NATO will ignore what Turkey is doing as long as it does not provoke a major incident.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:40   Link #16362
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Then, again NATO can also forbid Turkey to breach the blockade. Just saying. NATO's member states cannot act completely on their own and then rely on NATO support if something goes wrong (except the USA maybe). I would be interested in the official NATO policy in that matter. Because I doubt many NATO partners will like the idea, that one of their allies provokes Israel in that matter.
At best NATO will ignore what Turkey is doing as long as it does not provoke a major incident.
losing a membership in NATO (along with all the perks it involves) might be used as a prodding stick to get Turkey to back off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If Turkey initiated offensive action against Israel, no intervention would be required, but NATO members would not be able to intervene on the side of Israel either.
since when do NATO forces fight on Israeli behalf ?
or, while we're at it, does Israel wait around for NATO's actions ?

Quote:
For the moment, Turkey has the initiative, and there's not much Israel can do.
Turkey has ALWAYS had the initiative.
its the only one who's interested in prolonging this useless "conflict" then it already has.
saying it has the initiative is like saying that a man playing racket ball against the wall has the initiative.
its because he's the only one playing.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:43   Link #16363
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
a military escort for a mission who's purpose is to breach a navel blockade turns it into a military action.
thats an act of war.
Entering palestinian waters is not an act of war against Israel.

Quote:
1)NATO would not intervene on Turkey's behalf.
a fact that you are perfectly aware of.
NATO would be legally required to enter on the side of Turkey in the case of Turkey being attacked. It's a mutual defense treaty. They would have no choice, unless they want to start an international incident.

Quote:
2)the Turkish army is NOT 5 times larger then the Israeli one, its not even twice as large so i'm not sure where you got your data from.
Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, with 400,000 active personnel, 400,000 reservists and 18 million men fit for military service, Israel has 187,000 active personnel, 565,000 reservists but only 1.2 million more available fit for service. I'm a little bit off, but Turkey has a very capable army.

Quote:
3)the Turkish air force has around 200 F-16s while the Israeli air force has over 300 F-16 and around 80 additional F-15. most of them MORE modern then Turkey's because they get upgraded in Israel.
Can't deny that Israel's airforce is a bit better, but Israel can't as easily take out Turkey's air force like it did with Egypt.

Quote:
4)the Turkish navy's size doesn't matter if the conflict takes place within range of the Israeli air force (which it kinda has too).
True, but they are still there.

Quote:
5)Turkey, believe it or not, is surrounded by MORE enemies then Israel is, and doesn't have the "luxury" of being able to warn them that their attempt at intervening would result in a less then conventional retaliation.
None of them are going to join in with Israel.

Quote:
Erdugan has been acting like a dick towards Israel for a LONG time before the Flotila thing.
which is on par with how poorly his relations with the REST of his neighborer have gone so far.
Netanyahu is still the king of dickery. Netanyahu isn't exactly popular with his own people either, unlike erdogan...

EDIT: Also, nations can't be so easily kicked out of NATO.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:45   Link #16364
Ithekro
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Again, there are no Paletinian territorial waters, regardless of who recognizes what. Those waters have not been negotiated yet between Palestine and Israel. Even in the unofficial state of Palestine...there are not yet territorial waters they claim.

Add to this the blockade. A legal blockade I might add. Running a blockade gets one fired upon. Military force used to break a blockade is generally considered an act of war. Ships entering the blockade zone are subject to searches by the Israeli Navy. Warships entering the area may be subject to other rules, but one imagines the Isreali Navy will attempt to inspect whatever ships they are escorting, including firing on those ships if they do not comply. If the Turks return fire for the ships they are escorting...well...that is a problem now, isn't it.
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:50   Link #16365
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Entering palestinian waters is not an act of war against Israel.
Violating an Israeli navel blockade IS.


Quote:
NATO would be legally required to enter on the side of Turkey in the case of Turkey being attacked. It's a mutual defense treaty. They would have no choice, unless they want to start an international incident.
NATO does not have to intervene if Turkey instigates the conflict, which they would HAVE to in order to get Israel to attack them.

Quote:
Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, with 400,000 active personnel, 400,000 reservists and 18 million men fit for military service, Israel has 187,000 active personnel, 565,000 reservists but only 1.2 million more available fit for service. I'm a little bit off, but Turkey has a very capable army.
eligible to service means nothing.
the only numbers that matter are the active and reserve personal.
which makes it 800,000 vs 700,000
and even MORE in Israel's favor once you realize that Turkey's huge land army is not going to play a part at all.

Quote:
Can't deny that Israel's airforce is a bit better, but Israel can't as easily take out Turkey's air force like it did with Egypt.
really ?
why not ?

edit: also, NOT a BIT better.

Quote:
True, but they are still there.
not in the event of open warfare they won't be.
not for long, anyway.

Quote:
None of them are going to join in with Israel.
putting aside that Greece and the Kurds already ARE Israeli allies to some degree.
its not the point.
Turkey can't afford to leave its back exposed.

Quote:
Netanyahu is still the king of dickery. Netanyahu isn't exactly popular with his own people either, unlike erdogan..
Netanyahu is the Israeli prime minister, and hence, unpopular with the Israeli public BY DEFAULT.
we're not exactly a forgiving people, especially towards Israeli political figures.

Erdugan, by contrast, is utterly hated by HIS OWN ARMY. (the parts of it he hasn't imprisoned or forced into retainment already that is.)
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Old 2011-09-09, 14:54   Link #16366
DonQuigleone
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The Blockade may be legally, but is it ethically? Is it ethical to use such a collective punishment on an entire community of 1.7 million people for the actions of a few hundred militants? Is it ethical to force an entire community to depend on a few scraps of aid?

And if we're going to talk legalities, is Israel's occupation and colonisation of the West Bank Legal?

Israel has shown it has no respect for international law, and has repeatedly ignored the UN. I don't see why we should be using the UN's findings in it's defense now.

From a common sense perspective, the Gazans should have control of their own coastline, and should be able to import and export goods as they please. It's not for Israel to dictate what they can and cannot do.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Violating an Israeli navel blockade IS.
Violating an israeli blockade that is itself illegal ISN'T. The Turks do not consider it illegal, and NATO the important organisation here, has expressed no opinion.

Quote:
NATO does not have to intervene if Turkey instigates the conflict, which they would HAVE to in order to get Israel to attack them.
Turkey is not instigating any conflict, just protecting it's own ships from foreign aggresion.

Quote:
really ?
why not ?
Distance. Israel cannot bomb every Turkish airbase in a surprise attack like it did with Egypt. In turn, it also makes it more difficult for Turkey to attack as well.

EDIT 2: Greece, like Turkey is part of NATO, it will not attack Turkey. Bulgaria is part of NATO as well. And Georgia doesn't have much beef with Turkey right now...
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:00   Link #16367
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The Blockade may be legally, but is it ethically? Is it ethical to use such a collective punishment on an entire community of 1.7 million people for the actions of a few hundred militants? Is it ethical to force an entire community to depend on a few scraps of aid?
Gaza's GOVERMENT is in a war with Israel, which is a LOT more then "a few hundred militants."

Quote:
And if we're going to talk legalities, is Israel's occupation and colonisation of the West Bank Legal?
Is Turkey's occupation and colonization of north Cyprus legal ?

Quote:
Israel has shown it has no respect for international law, and has repeatedly ignored the UN. I don't see why we should be using the UN's findings in it's defense now.
because YOU have respect for international law, and you DON'T ignore the U.N.

Quote:
From a common sense perspective, the Gazans should have control of their own coastline, and should be able to import and export goods as they please. It's not for Israel to dictate what they can and cannot do.
from a common sense prespective, Israelies should have control of their own SKIES, and not have to worry about rocket propelled explosives flying through them and landing in their homes and schools.

shame common sense doesn't apply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
EDIT:
Violating an israeli blockade that is itself illegal ISN'T. The Turks do not consider it illegal, and NATO the important organisation here, has expressed no opinion.
its Legal.
the U.N team, that Turkey was a PART of says so.

Quote:
Turkey is not instigating any conflict, just protecting it's own ships from foreign aggresion.
while the ships themselves commit an act of aggression.

Quote:
Distance. Israel cannot bomb every Turkish airbase in a surprise attack like it did with Egypt. In turn, it also makes it more difficult for Turkey to attack as well.
again, Israel has better planes, more of them, and better pilots.
all of which Turkey knows, since it used to regularly train with the IAF before Erdugan started acting like a fool.

Quote:
EDIT 2: Greece, like Turkey is part of NATO, it will not attack Turkey. Bulgaria is part of NATO as well. And Georgia doesn't have much beef with Turkey right now...
Why not ?
Turkey attacked Greece, and is occupying Greek territory as we speak.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:06   Link #16368
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
from a common sense prespective, Israelies should have control of their own SKIES, and not have to worry about rocket propelled explosives flying through them and landing in their homes and schools.

shame common sense doesn't apply.
Shame Israelis need to oppress Millions of Arabs living in its occupied territories to have any form of security. Shame that Arabs are treated like second class citizens in israel. Shame that Israel is stealing land in the Negev from Bedouin Arabs who have always fought along side them. Shame that Israel steals land from Arabs in the west bank.

Israel created this bed, now it has to lie in it. You can't piss over an entire group of people and not expect any of them to fight back.

That's not to say I condone Palestinian actions either, but we can't lose sight of the fact that israel routinely mistreats it's own Arab citizens, and the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza.

If the Arabs were prosperous, and had real opportunities for the future they might be less intent on attacking Israel.

EDIT: Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus, that has nothing to do with Greece, other then Greece expressing some measure of moral support. Otherwise, Greece and Turkey have no border conflicts.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:11   Link #16369
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Shame Israelis need to oppress Millions of Arabs living in its occupied territories to have any form of security. Shame that Arabs are treated like second class citizens in israel. Shame that Israel is stealing land in the Negev from Bedouin Arabs who have always fought along side them. Shame that Israel steals land from Arabs in the west bank.

Israel created this bed, now it has to lie in it. You can't piss over an entire group of people and not expect any of them to fight back.

That's not to say I condone Palestinian actions either, but we can't lose sight of the fact that israel routinely mistreats it's own Arab citizens, and the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza.

If the Arabs were prosperous, and had real opportunities for the future they might be less intent on attacking Israel.
oh cry me a river.

this is about Turkey's latest poo flinging.
nothing else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
EDIT: Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus, that has nothing to do with Greece, other then Greece expressing some measure of moral support. Otherwise, Greece and Turkey have no border conflicts.
who do you think it occupied it FROM ?
why do you think its people are called "Greek Cypriots" ?
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:13   Link #16370
DonQuigleone
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The central question is Israel's Blockade. The blockade is wrong. It's not a question of legality. It's a question of ethics. Israel is behaving unethically.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:16   Link #16371
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The central question is Israel's Blockade. The blockade is wrong. It's not a question of legality. It's a question of ethics. Israel is behaving unethically.
its not a question at all.
its there, and its legal, and your opinion, or anyone elses opinion (especially Turkey's) is irrelevant.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:19   Link #16372
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its not a question at all.
its there, and its legal, and your opinion, or anyone elses opinion (especially Turkey's) is irrelevant.
It's legal, sure. It's also villainous, and pretty much every country around the world has urged Israel to either lift it, or ease it substantially.

Yes, the rocket attacks on Israel are also wrong and villainous. But 2 wrongs do not make a right. Israel can't solve it's problems by attacking whole groups of people.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:22   Link #16373
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's legal, sure. It's also villainous, and pretty much every country around the world has urged Israel to either lift it, or ease it substantially.

Yes, the rocket attacks on Israel are also wrong and villainous. But 2 wrongs do not make a right. Israel can't solve it's problems by attacking whole groups of people.
Villainy is subjective, Legality is not.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:25   Link #16374
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well.. according to World Weekly News, we've been under an alien invasion for the last couple of years. All kept in secrecy of course but the weird weather and 'natural' events are what leak out. Putin, of course, is on the job and looking good while doing it:
http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines...efense-system/

(this has been a MiB report, please look this way for a free eye exam)
LOL are these people even serious?

On a positive note, I believe it is impossible for an alien species able to travel through space to be malignant because the technology required for such a feat gives you the power to wipe out not just your planet but your solar system. You would have to be very advanced not just technologically but spiritually as well in order to keep your emotions in check.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:27   Link #16375
synaesthetic
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
LOL are these people even serious?

On a positive note, I believe it is impossible for an alien species able to travel through space to be malignant because the technology required for such a feat gives you the power to wipe out not just your planet but your solar system. You would have to be very advanced not just technologically but spiritually as well in order to keep your emotions in check.
It's pretty stupid to anthropomorphize something that is not human. You don't even know what's out there--it could be so alien to our perceptions that we can't even understand how they think, much less why they do what they do.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:27   Link #16376
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
LOL are these people even serious?

On a positive note, I believe it is impossible for an alien species able to travel through space to be malignant because the technology required for such a feat gives you the power to wipe out not just your planet but your solar system. You would have to be very advanced not just technologically but spiritually as well in order to keep your emotions in check.
of course, there IS the alternative.
namely, that the Alien species IS both highly advanced AND malignant.
they may already HAVE destroyed their planet, and in need of a new one.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:29   Link #16377
Ithekro
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Your opinion of the ethics of the blockade mean nothing to the situation. Under international law, the blockade is legal regardless of the ethics (war is unethical...but it happens anyway). if Turkey decides to help some ships run the blockade and fire on Israeli naval vessels, it is an act of war. It is that simple.

It might not lead to war, but that is the standard, cold nature of international law from even before there was a United Nations to say if something was legal or not. It was law of the seas type thing about blockades and running them. Since the entire point of a blockade is to keep things from entering a country, they are generally unethical by default. Think World War One. The British and Germans blockaded each other in whatever ways they could. The British blockaded using their vast surface fleet, the Germans used u-boats to starve out the United Kingdom. It was fairly effective, but not abolute (since the British Isles are rather large and u-boats can't be everywhere at once). The Israeli blockade has much less area to cover so they can be more efficeint. They let some thing though, but other things are not allowed to enter. They aren't randomly sinking every single ship that comes into that area for instance.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:40   Link #16378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's legal, sure. It's also villainous, and pretty much every country around the world has urged Israel to either lift it, or ease it substantially.

Yes, the rocket attacks on Israel are also wrong and villainous. But 2 wrongs do not make a right. Israel can't solve it's problems by attacking whole groups of people.
Don, i read some of you post and your twisting of logic in making a case for NATO to Israel is truly astounding and yet so obviously wrong.

NATO WILL NOT defend Turkey if Turkey provokes a incident with Israel. Regardless of what NATO countries think about blockade. At best countries like the US will sent out high level diplomats to work out some facing measure for both sides. If the Turkey PM thinks the same way you do that NATO will defend Turkey regardless, then he is a absolutely idiot.


Regarding Israel oppression, Might Makes Right. That is the philosphy that rule the world since the first human pick a rock and use it as weapon against another human. It will continue to be the guiding principle by which all humanity will live under till extinction.
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Old 2011-09-09, 15:46   Link #16379
DonQuigleone
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The international law is there, but it's pretty murky. International law is very flaky when it concerns regions of the world that are not part of any particular state.

I know perfectly well that might makes right in International law(as unfortunate as it may be). This is a case however, where Israel is now coming up against someone that is practically it's equal, Turkey.

The fact that Turkey is part of Nato is very relevant. If this was, say, Iran getting into a dispute with Israel there would always be the possibility of the US, UK and other Nato members intervening on the side of Israel. In this case that cannot take place, because Turkey is a NATO member. Furthermore, a lot of other NATO members similiarly disagree with Israely actions regarding the blockade, and might give support to Turkey.

Israel is not exactly popular in Europe at the moment.

Whether or not NATO is obliged to intervene due to the mutual defense treaty is a matter of debate, largely because both countries are claiming to be acting out of self defense, and both have some legal basis for that claim, as the UN has ruled in each of their favour on the matter. It's ruled in favour of Israel in that the blockade was legal, but also in favour of Turkey in claiming that the attack on Turkish civilians was unwarranted. Both can reasonably claim to be the defender. And you can also reasonably argue that both are the aggressor. Turkey for obvious reasons, but Israel for actually initiating the blockade in the first place, and killing turkish citizens.
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Old 2011-09-09, 16:07   Link #16380
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
LOL are these people even serious?

On a positive note, I believe it is impossible for an alien species able to travel through space to be malignant because the technology required for such a feat gives you the power to wipe out not just your planet but your solar system. You would have to be very advanced not just technologically but spiritually as well in order to keep your emotions in check.
And maybe their advancement led them to the conclusion that exterminating us was no big deal. Why not?
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